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Fvck IMBA in the arse with a rusty rebar

AngryMetalsmith

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So the self-proclaimed voice of mountain biking gets an audience with members of Congress, yet refrains from lobbying for access to wilderness areas ?

Seems as suspicious as their claims that three foot deep machine cut trails are sustainable.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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So the self-proclaimed voice of mountain biking gets an audience with members of Congress, yet refrains from lobbying for access to wilderness areas ?

Seems as suspicious as their claims that three foot deep machine cut trails are sustainable.

Got to love a good dozer ditch.



What could go wrong?
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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As a side note, I don't think bikes should be in wilderness areas. Some places in this world need to be hard to get to. Keeps a lot of assholes out.
 

AngryMetalsmith

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Got to love a good dozer ditch.



What could go wrong?
There's a place for those kind of trails. Just not every place.

Every time I hear/see the word "sustainable" used in regards to trail building I wonder how sustainable a 3' deep bench cut on not so steep terrain is for the trees who's roots have been removed. I'm no arborist, but that just does not sound right. Roots hold soil together and keep trees from falling on said trail.

To me there is seldom a legitimate reason to cut roots out of a trail. But as things are progressing, trails are getting dumbed down and riders only care about going fast on flow trails. So no roots, rocks, log crossings, off-camber corners, steeps or anything resembling a true technical challenge.

Ride the goods now, before they all go the way of our dear friend the 26" wheel.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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There's a place for those kind of trails. Just not every place.

Every time I hear/see the word "sustainable" used in regards to trail building I wonder how sustainable a 3' deep bench cut on not so steep terrain is for the trees who's roots have been removed. I'm no arborist, but that just does not sound right. Roots hold soil together and keep trees from falling on said trail.

To me there is seldom a legitimate reason to cut roots out of a trail. But as things are progressing, trails are getting dumbed down and riders only care about going fast on flow trails. So no roots, rocks, log crossings, off-camber corners, steeps or anything resembling a true technical challenge.

Ride the goods now, before they all go the way of our dear friend the 26" wheel.

Back in VA sustainable was the excuse for neutering tech sections and making blown out dentist trails. Ten or so years ago IMBA came to town to fix/teach us how to build sustainable trails at a system that was pretty much built by leaf blowing good lines then riding it in. Rocks, roots and narrow trails pretty much kept things sustainable.

IMBA came in and replace a fun steep down hill with a bench cut dozer ditch devoid of rocks or roots. There were nice ups and downs to provide "flow" and locations for water to drain off of the trail. The first thing that happened was they basically dug open a spring than oozed water all the time. This quickly turned into a muddy ditch. Round two had them armoring the fuck out the the oozy bog. Since dentists don't like wet slimy rocks all manners of ride bypass trails appeared, those quickly eroded into deep ruts. Over the years the rollers they built had sediments build up into the low spots because they were so damn wide. Since the rocks were got ruts appeared, people rode around the ruts and the whole section is a blown out mess. All of the old school trails have changed little.

A sustainable trail is one whose line is chosen properly. Everything else is a band-aid with shitty adhesive.
 

AngryMetalsmith

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@Westy I'll admit I love berms, have since I raced BMX as a kid. But seeing all the natural "old school" trails transformed into featureless bob sled runs is depressing. That's not to say all of those trails suck, some have a decent mix of tech, rock, and "flow".

To me, real "flow" is something you learn to do on tight technical singletrack. A state worthy of aspiring to, not an entitlement handed down from IMBA to the clown-wheel crew.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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@Westy I'll admit I love berms, have since I raced BMX as a kid. But seeing all the natural "old school" trails transformed into featureless bob sled runs is depressing. That's not to say all of those trails suck, some have a decent mix of tech, rock, and "flow".

To me, real "flow" is something you learn to do on tight technical singletrack. A state worthy of aspiring to, not an entitlement handed down from IMBA to the clown-wheel crew.
I love a corner that takes skill to get around. Picking a line and sliding around a bit sans brakes is my happy place.
 

AngryMetalsmith

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I love a corner that takes skill to get around. Picking a line and sliding around a bit sans brakes is my happy place.
Then I highly recommend Maxxis Ardents. They slide but so consistently and predictably that two wheeled drifts can easily be controlled. Nothing like hearing the sound of your roost hitting the leaves after you're through a corner.
 

canadmos

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May 29, 2011
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Back in VA sustainable was the excuse for neutering tech sections and making blown out dentist trails. Ten or so years ago IMBA came to town to fix/teach us how to build sustainable trails at a system that was pretty much built by leaf blowing good lines then riding it in. Rocks, roots and narrow trails pretty much kept things sustainable.

IMBA came in and replace a fun steep down hill with a bench cut dozer ditch devoid of rocks or roots. There were nice ups and downs to provide "flow" and locations for water to drain off of the trail. The first thing that happened was they basically dug open a spring than oozed water all the time. This quickly turned into a muddy ditch. Round two had them armoring the fuck out the the oozy bog. Since dentists don't like wet slimy rocks all manners of ride bypass trails appeared, those quickly eroded into deep ruts. Over the years the rollers they built had sediments build up into the low spots because they were so damn wide. Since the rocks were got ruts appeared, people rode around the ruts and the whole section is a blown out mess. All of the old school trails have changed little.

A sustainable trail is one whose line is chosen properly. Everything else is a band-aid with shitty adhesive.
I think that says a lot. My favourite local trails are ones that weren't "built", but were just a cleared path going through the hills. Very little actual digging or changing of the land. Those trails have been there for longer than I've been alive and over the course of riding them for 15 years, they have changed very little. There are even very few shortcuts or those pesky ridearounds.

On the other hand, about a mile or two down the road is another trail system. This one is part of a club and is built to IMBA "standards". I don't ride here because they aren't as fun, you can see where ever they have dug, those spots have turned to sand and for all the other reasons. They also have to constantly fix these trails, for the same reasons you pointed out.

I'll continue to ride the better trails...
 

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
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Flow is about having the technical skills to maintain momentum through chunder.

IMBA's flow is about enticing non-MTB dentists into the sport with their wide ass machine built highways.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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Actual went for a hike in Wilderness today. First clear sky day in the mountains. Parking lots were a zoo. Took a solid hour of hiking to get away from the sounds of revving harleys and a busload of selfie obsessed chinese tourists. Only a short dayhike loop but that place didn't need anymore people. Bikes would simply change that radius of madness from a mile from parking, to ten miles.

However, with a lack of berms and "trail features" I am not sure how many locals would bother riding it if possible.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,991
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A sustainable trail is
a contradiction.

A good bench-cut can last a while, grade-reversals can help, other erosion control features can help, but this is a total misnomer and this term is just as bad as specialized saying shit like "true 4 bar". I've seen good bench cuts being reclaimed by nature, plants grow, roots protrude, erosion happens, tread wears, and so on. The idea that all the difficult trails are "unsustainable" is BS, in many cases, they require more work, more work to design properly and possibly more work to sustain, but the idea that everything that is not an "IMBA-approved dentist trail" is unsustainable is because people are lazy and IMBA is not organizing on the local level to get people out to work on the trails. We do this every spring here around Anchorage and have multiple work parties over a few months to sustain stuff. Some trails have the forest service or other organizations to maintain, etc, and some have virtually nothing. Obviously a difficult line with NO maintenance will turn to sh*t, but again, it's 100% bullshit that some IMBA flow trail cut with IPA-loving hipsters driving bobcats and packed by unicorns is really "sustainable". Everything needs work, or after time, it too will suck.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
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I live for the rooty and the rocky trails. There are plenty of dentist trails around here for sure, but the best trails are the rough ones.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
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VT
no-brake two-wheel drifts on everyday trail rides???
some serious pros are posting on this thread, it appears....
I wonder why the annual RM fest is always at the boring Kingdom dentist trails in VT when there's much better options in VT?
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
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no-brake two-wheel drifts on everyday trail rides???
some serious pros are posting on this thread, it appears....
I'll be honest, I've never done a two wheel, no brake drift. I can't even do the cool earth based kick-outs that are all the rage these days. But fuck IMBA all the same. Trails should all be different, and they should never involve cutting down living trees, fucking up flowing waterways, or bull dozers. If you can't tackle a section, walk it, or ride elsewhere until you're good enough to ride it, that's how mountain biking gets fun. No shame in walking a rock garden, lots of shame in removing the rocks. They already have lots of easy trails, they're called roads, want some good cardio in a safe enviroment? Hit up the bike path, it's a lot of fun sometimes. Want to go mountain biking? Ride what's there, and if you build a new trail, built it to effect the earth as little as possible, even if that makes it nearly unridibeu.
 

AngryMetalsmith

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Jun 4, 2006
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I'll be honest, I've never done a two wheel, no brake drift. I can't even do the cool earth based kick-outs that are all the rage these days. But fuck IMBA all the same. Trails should all be different, and they should never involve cutting down living trees, fucking up flowing waterways, or bull dozers. If you can't tackle a section, walk it, or ride elsewhere until you're good enough to ride it, that's how mountain biking gets fun. No shame in walking a rock garden, lots of shame in removing the rocks. They already have lots of easy trails, they're called roads, want some good cardio in a safe enviroment? Hit up the bike path, it's a lot of fun sometimes. Want to go mountain biking? Ride what's there, and if you build a new trail, built it to effect the earth as little as possible, even if that makes it nearly unridibeu.
Not a pro, but Holliday Inn Express lets me corner like one. Or at least that's what the retired BMX pros tell me.

Totally agree with you about trail building. Unfortunately a new generation of entitled Dirt Roadies have too much influence on trail design.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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Not a pro, but Holliday Inn Express lets me corner like one. Or at least that's what the retired BMX pros tell me.

Totally agree with you about trail building. Unfortunately a new generation of entitled Dirt Roadies have too much influence on trail design.
my dream is to buy huuuuuuuuuuge tracks of land, and build some of the gnarliest trails known to man. anyone caught modifying them without permission will be hung.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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People can stop complaining about getting flats @Massanutten

https://www.massresort.com/play/bike-park/

OK, not a fair comparison. But this makes me a little sad that a place known for rocky terrain went for the smooth-assed paved route. Had some of my best days on a bike up that way. Watching people having mental break-downs on the upper ridge trail due to miles of marginally rideable rock gardens. Happily those trails still exist.
 

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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,991
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AK
People can stop complaining about getting flats @Massanutten

https://www.massresort.com/play/bike-park/

OK, not a fair comparison. But this makes me a little sad that a place known for rocky terrain went for the smooth-assed paved route. Had some of my best days on a bike up that way. Watching people having mental break-downs on the upper ridge trail due to miles of marginally rideable rock gardens. Happily those trails still exist.
But how am I supposed to run 18 psi if there are rocks?
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
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But how am I supposed to run 18 psi if there are rocks?
Easy, just go really fucking slow and babble incessantly about all the "traction".

Regarding Mass, my understanding was they wanted to first get a "flow trail" built to attract the newbies and/or families, but the blue trail on the other side of the existing DH course will be a full-on stop sign factory.
 

AngryMetalsmith

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Easy, just go really fucking slow and babble incessantly about all the "traction".

Regarding Mass, my understanding was they wanted to first get a "flow trail" built to attract the newbies and/or families, but the blue trail on the other side of the existing DH course will be a full-on stop sign factory.
I dunno man, we didn't have flow-easy™ trails in the early 90's. We learned on the same difficult singletrack that everyone else rode.

Rock removal makes me sad...
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
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I dunno man, we didn't have flow-easy™ trails in the early 90's. We learned on the same difficult singletrack that everyone else rode.

Rock removal makes me sad...
We also didn't have 25 different BB dimensions, 6 different tire sizes/widths, Linkage graphs and dentists just cleaned teeth. If you want dentite $$$, you must avail them to endless berms, occasional pebble gardens and rental UV protection blankets. As long as they keep the OG dh course intact and hopefully add another trail or 2 au natural, I'd be copacetic.
 
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