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Are you embarrassed...

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
Another interesting observation is that natural trails handle weather better and perhaps are more fun and challenging as they weather. Whereas berm trails aren't more fun with braking bumps and rain ruts or so the local forums boards would suggest after a rain event.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,635
5,549
UK
Another interesting observation is that natural trails handle weather better and perhaps are more fun and challenging as they weather. Whereas berm trails aren't more fun with braking bumps and rain ruts or so the local forums boards would suggest after a rain event.
You definitely should be embarrassed if you truly believe the sweeping generisation you've just typed is even vaguely accurate nevermind an interesting observation.
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
Its not a generalization, the amount of complaining to "fix" trails locally is almost 100% focused on the berms. Even for me, at home, on my pump track berm maintenance is pretty much ALL the maintenance.

When was the last time you showed up to the local pumptrack or even A-Line and was stoked to see that the berms are now full of rain ruts and have shallower angles?
 
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Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,635
5,549
UK
My local pumptrack is made of asphalt.



I don't think anyone would be happy if some dick turned up with a shovel to try and "maintain" it.

My local 100% natural trails are a fucking quagmire in places just now.
My closest man made trails hold up well all year round. (including the berms) Because they are built properly in the first place. and maintained as and when required.

Not only are you generalizing. You seem unable to see a wider view.

Whistler is 3500 miles away. But from what I hear they seem to have a pretty good grasp on trailbuilding/maintenance.
 

KenW449

Thanos did nothing wrong
Jun 13, 2017
2,704
329
Floating down the whiskey river...
I understand the whole make some trails easier for new riders, but I think the powers to be in the sport are getting a little too carried away with the idea.
There are many snowflakes out there that want to be able to ride 'cool' trails, but dont want the higher risk of falling or situations that cause them to have to walk sections as they learn...

-Brett
As someone who has only ridden for almost a year, i am not embarrassed to say i've done a lot of hike-a-bike on things that sketch me out. Even on blue trails when i first started. I'd look at a giant rutted out hill and go "Nope." Since progressing, i now ride them and have more fun. I still do a lot of Hike-a-bike on things above my skill level. When i did La Milagrosa a few months back, i hiked about the same amount of time i rode, Its double black. I eventually learn to ride things i couldn't before and enjoy the learning experience i get from it and the sense of accomplishment. There are not a lot of places here though to practice getting airborne, but that's coming soon with the new bike park. So i still need to work on getting air, and drops.
Luckily here in Tucson, we have a wide range of trails for all levels available free.

Fantasy Island- All blue and under but still fun for MTBers of all levels. Best place to practice getting air.
Tucson Mountain Park/Starr Pass- Rocky gnar/ tech with some fast flowly stuff.
Sweetwater Preserve- See above but smaller area.
AZT- A lot of XC with some tech thrown in here and there
Mt. Lemmon- Lots of tech and DH.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Another interesting observation is that natural trails handle weather better and perhaps are more fun and challenging as they weather.
Totally agree, imagine my heartbreak when some "pro-trailbuilders" destroyed and completely machine-flattened one of our roughest and rockiest local DH tracks in favour of a smooth AM berm line, all in the name of environmental "sustainability".

The natural track had existed almost completely unchanged for over a decade previously (actually one Chris Kovarik used to ride / train on).

I'm all for having different trail options, and enjoy a flow trail as much as anyone else riding them, but I don't think they should ever over-write a natural tech trail. It really, really sucks when that happens.
 

boogenman

Turbo Monkey
Nov 3, 2004
4,315
987
BUFFALO
And yes, all WC DH courses should have at least one decently fast nasty off camber grassy, greasy whooped out cluster-fuck of a corner.:monkey:
I always enjoyed the challenge of off camber sections. The Snowshoe NORBA race in 2003 stands out, it was slick and really really hard to stay on the bike. You had to commit and let off the brakes 100%. Good old days of racing I guess?
I also enjoy berms and lame flow trails if I am not racing which I no longer do.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,368
1,606
Warsaw :/
Berms are neither new nor shit.

Yeah but DH tracks with no off cambers and only high speed berm sections are a newer idea last time I checked.

There is a good mix of berm and off camber and it's called Schladming (and Maribor to a lesser extent) but a lot of modern tracks have too much berm and too little of the section made for crash reels in the mud
 
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Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,635
5,549
UK
I don't believe I've ever seen nevermind ridden a genuine DH track that hasn't had any off camber track in it at all.
I love flat and off camber corners but don't feel the need to hate on berms. If you genuinely can't stand them ride the inside line. Hell. Ride outside them completely for all I care.
You won't ever please everyone equally.
 

KenW449

Thanos did nothing wrong
Jun 13, 2017
2,704
329
Floating down the whiskey river...
Yeah but DH tracks with no off cambers and only high speed berm sections are a newer idea last time I checked.

There is a good mix of berm and off camber and it's called Schladming (and Maribor to a lesser extent) but a lot of modern tracks have too much berm and too little of the section made for crash reels in the mud

Bring back old DH!

What I've learned from this thread:
WILIBSI.jpg
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,368
1,606
Warsaw :/
Not super old tracks. 2006-2010 seemed to be in a sweet spot in terms of what tracks were on the circuit. I rode many of the old tracks and I liked all I've tried. The only really stupid track back in the day was Willingen. Now you put one tech section on FT Bill and all riders cry but well at least Sam Hill had a laugh at all the complaining.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,368
1,606
Warsaw :/
Back then, i will still riding my Wal-mart BMX bike with knobby tires through mud and snow. I will take your word for it because i have no clue!
You can test it yourself. Schladming is still an open track. So is Pila. So Is Val Di Sole (but it's still on the circuit) Maribor had some problems but it's open again. Champery is also open (the only track where adding berms made sense). So you can ride most of the tech tracks that were on the circuit back then. If you can't ride them just watch Earthed's and helmetcams from them.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,860
24,454
media blackout
Not super old tracks. 2006-2010 seemed to be in a sweet spot in terms of what tracks were on the circuit. I rode many of the old tracks and I liked all I've tried. The only really stupid track back in the day was Willingen. Now you put one tech section on FT Bill and all riders cry but well at least Sam Hill had a laugh at all the complaining.
maybe from a spectator perspective. a friend within the industry recently told me that a lot of the general changes in the directions of the tracks has been in response to the riders request. specifically that riders wanted faster tracks.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,368
1,606
Warsaw :/
maybe from a spectator perspective. a friend within the industry recently told me that a lot of the general changes in the directions of the tracks has been in response to the riders request. specifically that riders wanted faster tracks.
Jon you were here when there were talks about it. There were even results of that UCI poll. SOME riders thought faster wide open tracks would be better for the sport since they would draw in spectators (didn't really help). That was the idea. I've never remember the riders saying "moar berms, we love non tech stuff" and as you can see now a ton of the riders complain about the tracks. Even then many top riders wanted tech stuff. Blenki, Hill, Brendog all wanted to keep the tech. Also if you ask the riders which track is their favorite Schladming really comes out often on top. No one says Leogang or Lenzerheide.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,860
24,454
media blackout
Jon you were here when there were talks about it. There were even results of that UCI poll. SOME riders thought faster wide open tracks would be better for the sport since they would draw in spectators (didn't really help). That was the idea. I've never remember the riders saying "moar berms, we love non tech stuff" and as you can see now a ton of the riders complain about the tracks. Even then many top riders wanted tech stuff. Blenki, Hill, Brendog all wanted to keep the tech. Also if you ask the riders which track is their favorite Schladming really comes out often on top. No one says Leogang or Lenzerheide.
yea i don't have all the details of it, i'm not part of the riders union, just conveying what i've heard. obviously you can't please everyone, and people are going to complain about what they don't like (which we love to hear). and at the end of the day it's the responsibility of the venue to build the track.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,368
1,606
Warsaw :/
yea i don't have all the details of it, i'm not part of the riders union, just conveying what i've heard. obviously you can't please everyone, and people are going to complain about what they don't like (which we love to hear). and at the end of the day it's the responsibility of the venue to build the track.
I'm not part of the riders union too. I'm just gathering what I hear and see from interviews. Everyone complains about berms and the the idea for faster tracks and berms wasn't so that riders enjoy it since everyone hated tracks like Willingen. Also riders always say good stuff about tech tracks. As a rider yourself I'm pretty sure you'd rather try yourself on something like Maribor/VDS/Pila/Schlad than Leogang.