[rockracing]

local kid here in south africa, apparently world's youngest epo case.....damn that's sick.

says he only ever received 2 injections from a sports doctor and his team manager !!

oh, and it was unintentional !?!?

 

[Internal14]

It's unfortunetly not that much different than kids in high School Footbal or wrestling being 'coached' on how to use `roids. When to cycle on and off for greater results and ducking the tests. I know this for a fact. I saw it going on when I was in high school and that was over ten years ago! It never made sense to me. I mean what's the chance that, at that point in your life, you know for sure if you are destined to be a great superstar or not? Why go messen with things at such a young age, and having the coaches there helping insert the needles?!
Fricken performance enhancing drug use is everywhere in every sport....what do you do?!

 

[SuspectDevice]

Can you find a link for me? I'm sure his bag got mixed up with Ulrich's bag over the christmas holidays......

 

[-dustin]

i knew a few 'star' athletes who were taking adrostene back in high school. none became anything outside our little town. 1 didn't go to college, 1 was very booksmart, but wasted his college education on weed, and the other dropped out of the Navy.

they were the cream of the crop in high school, though, and that's all that matters.

 

[JMAC]

Can you find a link for me? I'm sure his bag got mixed up with Ulrich's bag over the christmas holidays......

Are you saying Ullrich is a doper? If so, you suck..

 

[SuspectDevice]

Why do I suck? I don't doubt for a minute he, or anyone else who has won the Tour de France in the last 25 years was dirty. He's already gotten busted for popping party pills, it's a good indication to me if he's using heavy recreational drugs like MDMA he would have no qualms in using something performance enhancing.

 

[JMAC]

Why do I suck? I don't doubt for a minute he, or anyone else who has won the Tour de France in the last 25 years was dirty. He's already gotten busted for popping party pills, it's a good indication to me if he's using heavy recreational drugs like MDMA he would have no qualms in using something performance enhancing.

I wouldn;t be so quick to judge someone on one mistake they made. He's been one of the most consistant riders ever. It's the guys who just suddenly in one year jump to being top racers. Like Cunego, he popped out of nowhere. I also think that if Ullrich was a doper he would have beating Lance by now...

 

[LordOpie]

unless Jan sux and no amount of drugs can get him to challenge Lance.



I'm Opie and I approved this trolling.

 

[Silver]

Why do I suck? I don't doubt for a minute he, or anyone else who has won the Tour de France in the last 25 years was dirty. He's already gotten busted for popping party pills, it's a good indication to me if he's using heavy recreational drugs like MDMA he would have no qualms in using something performance enhancing.

I'd have no problem using heavy recreational drugs, but I wouldn't use EPO.

That stuff will kill you...

 

[chriskaiser]

Can you find a link for me?

LINK

 

[SuspectDevice]

I also think that if Ullrich was a doper he would have beating Lance by now...

Ullrich learned the doping ropes from Mr. 60% (Riis)... No one seemed to be able to "motivate" him quite as well...

Armstrong is sponosored by two of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world and he has more money and more pull over the UCI than any other single rider. We can attribute Armstrong's wins to 2 things. His pathetic focus on one race, and his better "medecine"

 

[Pau11y]

i knew a few 'star' athletes who were taking adrostene back in high school. none became anything outside our little town. 1 didn't go to college, 1 was very booksmart, but wasted his college education on weed, and the other dropped out of the Navy.

they were the cream of the crop in high school, though, and that's all that matters.

This brings up something I've been wondering about... Have any of yas seen any of your high school "A-group" people? I'm wondering if those movies about this is even close to being true, if high school popularity has turned them into giant pieces of crap in adult life. In the above instance it seem so, but any personal experiences?

We can attribute Armstrong's wins to 2 things. His pathetic focus on one race, and his better "medecine"

As for this comment, let me ask you this:
If he's been tested over and over and the results show nothing, wouldn't this opinion be based kinda on faith? Taking this further, what you're basically telling me is your faith on your fellow humans is that if anyone gets ahead, they must have cheated the system and his/her abilities had nothing to do w/ anything?

 

[SuspectDevice]

If he's been tested over and over and the results show nothing, wouldn't this opinion be based kinda on faith? Taking this further, what you're basically telling me is your faith on your fellow humans is that if anyone gets ahead, they must have cheated the system and his/her abilities had nothing to do w/ anything?

Armstrong got busted for corticosteriods, which he managed to claim was from a topical application from a saddle sore, using a post dated and bogus medical notice.
He also has close ties to Dr. Ferrari, and has been extremely aggresive and nasty towards Ferrari whistle blower Simeoni (not to be confused with Simoni).

The Aransnep scandal from the 2001 tour, which if you guys can't remember was the apparent use of a performance enhancing substance on an orchestrated, team wide level, but getting off because it was not yet regulated or on the market....

IF we couple these things we can see in plain sight with the multiple accusations leveled against him by former team personnel, Lemond (and LeMonde)
The most prepared rider wins major professional races, and I think the top 25 have the same access to drugs and doctors, so essentially the playing field is level, but dirty.

 

[JMAC]

Armstrong got busted for corticosteriods, which he managed to claim was from a topical application from a saddle sore, using a post dated and bogus medical notice.
He also has close ties to Dr. Ferrari, and has been extremely aggresive and nasty towards Ferrari whistle blower Simeoni (not to be confused with Simoni).

The Aransnep scandal from the 2001 tour, which if you guys can't remember was the apparent use of a performance enhancing substance on an orchestrated, team wide level, but getting off because it was not yet regulated or on the market....

IF we couple these things we can see in plain sight with the multiple accusations leveled against him by former team personnel, Lemond (and LeMonde)
The most prepared rider wins major professional races, and I think the top 25 have the same access to drugs and doctors, so essentially the playing field is level, but dirty.

Well you have a depressing view on pro cycling but you're right...also the fact that David Miller took EPO and NEVER tested positive makes me suspect everyone, Lance most of all, he seems very driven by money.

 

[MtnbikeMike]

As for this comment, let me ask you this:
If he's been tested over and over and the results show nothing, wouldn't this opinion be based kinda on faith? Taking this further, what you're basically telling me is your faith on your fellow humans is that if anyone gets ahead, they must have cheated the system and his/her abilities had nothing to do w/ anything?

To add to what Suspect Device said. Dr. Ferrari developed that original test for EPO. None of his athletes tested positive for the drug. There was even a female triathlete(I forget the name) who was having less than desirable results, who magically started winning everything.

Then this new test(the one that caught Tyler) was introduced, Lance knew about it and decided to skip the Olympics to spend time with his kids.

He may very well become clean with these new tests in place, and if he does race the Tour and performs poorly, he'll be able to say 'I left my energy on the road back in the spring classics.

 

[jon cross]

They work with Ferrari because he's the best. Crawford works with him as well, connecting Tom Danielson as much as Lance. If anyone could get away with drugs, it won't be Armstrong. Noone is more tested or more closely watched. You want to argue about skin cream and disgruntled employees making accusations, fine, but realize that your argument is pretty thin and there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

EPO use at such a young age is disheartening. Someone that young has no idea how far they can go without the extra help, but they now have thrown a wrench in the works with this mistake. A teammate of mine told me that several of the riders in the Tour of Bittamie (NO clue how to spell it, largest Jr stage race in the world, in Canada) were dq'd for positive dope tests- all under 18.

Drugs really are becoming a part of this sport at the working-class level. I think that if you could know with 100% accuracy who was using what, you would see the majority of dopers being frustrated guys hanging on to a career approaching its end and the domestiques that don't pull in enough money to be able to afford a bad season. Superstars are just that- they are the few and far between riders that are just freakish. They perform well and don't have to use the drugs because they don't truly need them and, with the attention that they get, they can't afford to take the risk of ending a career.

 

[SuspectDevice]

They work with Ferrari because he's the best. Crawford works with him as well, connecting Tom Danielson as much as Lance.

In case you've missed it Crawford is implicated knee deep in all sorts of shady dealing involving blood spinners... and has in fact admitted to purchasing blood spinners and advising his atheletes to do so.

Why does this guy need to closely monitor hematocrit levels? Hematocrit goes down with training, not up, so it's not just like atheletes are going randomly go over 50%...

You aren't at all puzzled by Danielson's metoric rise from back of the pack norba pro to Div 1 TT member and Langkawi winner? Anybody who has finished behind Kyle Ebbet in an XC race and is being heralded as a TDF contender 6 years later has some serious explaining to do.

 

[jon cross]

I would wager a guess that he was trying to track his questionable philosophy on base training. He has a really radical approach and some of the physiological aspects have been questioned recently. As far as Tommy D goes, I really believe he's clean. I think a lot of his improvement had to do with nutrition and training- the old fashioned stuff. Noone can say for sure but Rick, so arguing is pointless. I will just say that he's never told me anything that gave me reason to doubt that he and his athletes are clean.

 

[SuspectDevice]

I would wager a guess that he was trying to track his questionable philosophy on base training. He has a really radical approach and some of the physiological aspects have been questioned recently. As far as Tommy D goes, I really believe he's clean.

I'm really close friends with one of Crawford's associate coaches, and as far as he can see there are no apparent illegalites or improprieties going on out there either, but even he is troubled by Rick's unwillingness to explain the blood spinners.
I can think of a dozen things off hand (like $45 a month in blood work) that are going to better for tracking the changes that Crawford purportedly looks for with his LSD base approach.

 

[JMAC]

They work with Ferrari because he's the best. Crawford works with him as well, connecting Tom Danielson as much as Lance. If anyone could get away with drugs, it won't be Armstrong. Noone is more tested or more closely watched. You want to argue about skin cream and disgruntled employees making accusations, fine, but realize that your argument is pretty thin and there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

EPO use at such a young age is disheartening. Someone that young has no idea how far they can go without the extra help, but they now have thrown a wrench in the works with this mistake. A teammate of mine told me that several of the riders in the Tour of Bittamie (NO clue how to spell it, largest Jr stage race in the world, in Canada) were dq'd for positive dope tests- all under 18.

Drugs really are becoming a part of this sport at the working-class level. I think that if you could know with 100% accuracy who was using what, you would see the majority of dopers being frustrated guys hanging on to a career approaching its end and the domestiques that don't pull in enough money to be able to afford a bad season. Superstars are just that- they are the few and far between riders that are just freakish. They perform well and don't have to use the drugs because they don't truly need them and, with the attention that they get, they can't afford to take the risk of ending a career.

You mean Tour de L'Abitibi it's in Quebec...a terrible part of quebec imo.
The last para is in your dreams bud. People like Lance do dope, and Ullrich could do just like Hamiliton loaded himself with blood from various ppl like the moron he is.

 

[JMAC]

In case you've missed it Crawford is implicated knee deep in all sorts of shady dealing involving blood spinners... and has in fact admitted to purchasing blood spinners and advising his atheletes to do so.

Why does this guy need to closely monitor hematocrit levels? Hematocrit goes down with training, not up, so it's not just like atheletes are going randomly go over 50%...

You aren't at all puzzled by Danielson's metoric rise from back of the pack norba pro to Div 1 TT member and Langkawi winner? Anybody who has finished behind Kyle Ebbet in an XC race and is being heralded as a TDF contender 6 years later has some serious explaining to do.

Where did you get the idea that hemocrit goes down with training? That would defeat the point of EPO and blood doping....

 

[jaydee]

Well you have a depressing view on pro cycling but you're right...also the fact that David Miller took EPO and NEVER tested positive makes me suspect everyone, Lance most of all, he seems very driven by money.

So why exactly do you suspect Lance and not Jan? They're both head and shoulders above the rest, except for Jan's problems last year. Lance was beating the top pro triathletes in the world when he was a 16 year old skinny kid and the only dope in Texas was Dubya's father. So why wouldn't he still be a monster?

 

[SuspectDevice]

Where did you get the idea that hemocrit goes down with training? That would defeat the point of EPO and blood doping....

It's a basic tenet of human physiology. As fitness increases so does plasma volume and overall blood volume. This reduces the percentage of whole blood that is red blood cells.
Heavy, sedentary smokers have the highest hematocrit values, and elite endurance atheletes usually have values in the mid-high30's.
The concept behind blood doping is to increase overall RBC count to a higher percentage of overall blood volume. This is why it is such an insidious problem in sport.

 

[Zutroy]

Just as an interesting side note....long before doping became widely known problem to most people....there was all sorts of talk at the IU med center where he got cancer treatment that he was taking steriods, and that's why the cancer was so aggressive in such a fit, young person.

 

[Zutroy]

It's a basic tenet of human physiology. As fitness increases so does plasma volume and overall blood volume. This reduces the percentage of whole blood that is red blood cells.
Heavy, sedentary smokers have the highest hematocrit values, and elite endurance atheletes usually have values in the mid-high30's.
The concept behind blood doping is to increase overall RBC count to a higher percentage of overall blood volume. This is why it is such an insidious problem in sport.

Yep he's right increase in plasma volume is one of the first responses to training. The normal ranges are:

Adult males 42-54%
Adult women 38-46%

They can vary some with technique and labs....People who live at Altitude as well as smokers have higher numbers.

There are some exceptions, i do beleive there are some riders that have an exeption to the 50% hct rule do to some physiological abnormality.

 

[El Jefe]

Yep he's right increase in plasma volume is one of the first responses to training. The normal ranges are:

Adult males 42-54%
Adult women 38-46%

They can vary some with technique and labs....People who live at Altitude as well as smokers have higher numbers.

There are some exceptions, i do beleive there are some riders that have an exeption to the 50% hct rule do to some physiological abnormality.

Yeah, here's an interesting power point presentation I have bookmarked regarding the effects of (natural) training. ppt presentation

 

[punkassean]

...We can attribute Armstrong's wins to 2 things. His pathetic focus on one race, and his better "medecine"

So do you think it was lame when cyclists started treating DH as a real facet of the sport that deserved specialized attention? Sometime in the mid-early nineties athletes began to realize that if they focused their energy on the single discipline of DH and didn't party super-hard the night before a race they could have much more consistent results. Manufacturers started making dedicated bicycle designs with much more suspension travel than ever before (as opposed to an XC bike with a huge chainring) etc to further maximize the winning potential. Now there are virtually no top level athletes that compete in both XC and DH let alone Dual, when in the old days that was the norm. I liked the old days and there was surely something to be said for guys like Johnny T who could truly do it all but that doesn't make focusing on one aspect "pathetic" does it???

Lance is a champion and like you said even if he is "doping" so are all the contenders and in that regard it's a level playing field. But that's really just speculation and I think it's only fair to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who hasn't tested positive. And to say it's suspicious because he has contested test results if not really a fair statement. If you devoted your whole life to something and then someone accused you of something that you felt was unfair wouldn't you defend yourself?

I'm not saying Lance has or hasn't "doped" but until I know for sure either way I won't be making any accusations.

 

[SuspectDevice]

So do you think it was lame when cyclists started treating DH as a real facet of the sport that deserved specialized attention? Sometime in the mid-early nineties athletes began to realize that if they focused their energy on the single discipline of DH and didn't party super-hard the night before a race they could have much more consistent results. Manufacturers started making dedicated bicycle designs with much more suspension travel than ever before (as opposed to an XC bike with a huge chainring) etc to further maximize the winning potential. Now there are virtually no top level athletes that compete in both XC and DH let alone Dual, when in the old days that was the norm. I liked the old days and there was surely something to be said for guys like Johnny T who could truly do it all but that doesn't make focusing on one aspect "pathetic" does it???

That's rich... You are equating being a professional DH racer to cherrypicking? DH is a completely seperate discipline of cycling from road or XC. The requirements of modern racing are as disparate as Nordic and Alpine skiing.

I rip on Armstrong because he only races 30 days a year.
It's the equivalent of a pro Dh racer only racing Mt. Snow and getting paid like he is winning the World Cup and World Championships by a country mile.

 

[punkassean]

The point is possibly this is the beginning of a different era where the Tour is a separate focus for a lot of riders. Just because it has always been that way doesn't mean it always will.

Also I don't think for one second that just focusing on the Tour makes winning it easy. If what Lance is doing is as simple as "cherry picking" then why hasn't anyone beat him in six years? With all the people who hate him so badly and would love to defeat him how come none of them have succeeded if it's so simple to do what he's done?

 

[JMAC]

It's a basic tenet of human physiology. As fitness increases so does plasma volume and overall blood volume. This reduces the percentage of whole blood that is red blood cells.
Heavy, sedentary smokers have the highest hematocrit values, and elite endurance atheletes usually have values in the mid-high30's.
The concept behind blood doping is to increase overall RBC count to a higher percentage of overall blood volume. This is why it is such an insidious problem in sport.

Hemocrit is your RBC and I know that Cunago for one has a hemocrit of over 50 naturally....

 

[Zutroy]

The point is possibly this is the beginning of a different era where the Tour is a separate focus for a lot of riders. Just because it has always been that way doesn't mean it always will.

Also I don't think for one second that just focusing on the Tour makes winning it easy. If what Lance is doing is as simple as "cherry picking" then why hasn't anyone beat him in six years? With all the people who hate him so badly and would love to defeat him how come none of them have succeeded if it's so simple to do what he's done?

There are alot of reasons why Lance has one six, just concentrating on the Tour has alot to do with it, as he has said himself. I don't think we're going to see that. I think the formation of the ProTour as put an end to that. Ulrich said he was going to try the tactic, but he didn't. It would be intersting to see what would happen if someone put the same kinda effort into winning the tour as Lance does, the problem is it looks like most of the other guy with the talent to do it, won't. Since the Giro is a main goal for them too.

 

[Silver]

Lance doesn't show up every spring with an extra 5 pounds that he'll ride off either.

Little things like that seem to help.

 

[Zutroy]

Hemocrit is your RBC and I know that Cunago for one has a hemocrit of over 50 naturally....

Actually technically they are not the same. Hematocrit includes a size and the number of the cells. RBC is the actually number of cells. Cunego does have an exeption as does Dario Cioni now, I think there are some other. I'd really like to list, very interesting that two of the leading Italians have them, makes ya wonder about the genetics going on there.

 

[jon cross]

In case you've missed it Crawford is implicated knee deep in all sorts of shady dealing involving blood spinners... and has in fact admitted to purchasing blood spinners and advising his atheletes to do so.

You got a source for this? The only thing I've been able to find is Matt Dicanilio's ranting. This from someone who has admitted to EPO use.

 

[JMAC]

Actually technically they are not the same. Hematocrit includes a size and the number of the cells. RBC is the actually number of cells. Cunego does have an exeption as does Dario Cioni now, I think there are some other. I'd really like to list, very interesting that two of the leading Italians have them, makes ya wonder about the genetics going on there.

I know Jonathon Vaughters (sp?) had a doctors note for his high hemocrits, rbc?
It could just be that a higher %s of ppl in Italy try racing, so ppl with a higher count are the ones that make it in Italy and than show up outside their country. Either way I need to take some courses in school about this stuff, very interresting to me.