[AaronA]

And of course it would have to be about a gun. If you get a pm after this from me I'm prob just buggin' with more questions which I'm hoping you'll have the answers to. Anyway...
http://www.freerideoklahoma.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1851
Do I buy? Seems like the bomb. No conceal and carry intent on my part, no big nutz flexin' at the range; just want to keep a wep nearby the bedroom for dumbfux trying theHOMEINVASION.
OK--here's some randomness below...
YouTube link to the same song that was on Sirius just now in my world:

L8r all.

P.S. Mac & Cheese? Nah--shells & cheese, please and thank you.

 

[moff_quigley]

A pistol is the wrong tool for the HOMEINVASION scenario, IMHO. Get a shotgun. Get a tactical style shotgun if you want to flex.

 

[IH8Rice]

nothing says "get the fvck out" like a the shuck of a shotgun

 

[Transcend]

nothing says "get the fvck out" like a the shuck of a shotgun

...with home defense loads so you don't blast through a wall and take out kiddo/neighbor/wife in the next room.

 

[Serial Midget]

Who lurks for 2.5 years?

 

[MikeD]

Before you get a gun, you need to think about real security measures for your house.

I am not anti-gun, and I am a security professional. Until you've assessed your home in terms of presenting an uninviting target and making it very difficult to physically breach, you shouldn't be thinking about a gun. Get a dog! Lighting, alarms, possibly a camera setup, solid York deadbolts, Sargent and Greenleaf security bolts top and/or bottom, possibly window grilles depending on your location, possibly an interior safehaven door leading to your family's sleeping quarters, communications and emergency gear set up inside (landline and cell, plus radio if you're a real nutcase). Not as sexy or fun as a gun but likely to be much more useful.

And when you are thinking about a gun in addition to all this, you should have enough experience and knowledge to make these judgement calls yourself. Your money should go to professional training in practical fighting (not punching holes in paper) and ammunition and an inexpensive, reliable weapon which uses ammunition inexpensive enough for you to buy lots for training. (12ga pump or 9mm pistol)

Short answer to the gun talk is that a shotgun is a great home defense too, and far better than a handgun. The idea that racking a shotgun will send the bad guys screaming for Mama like Ralphie's Red Ryder is anecdotal BS. It might just let them know it's time for them to start shooting at you. The only time they should hear that rack is when it's immediately followed by the report of the shot. Otherwise don't tip your hand and remain covered/concealed or at least blinding them with your weapon light. But since you thought of reinforcing your house, they probably didn't get in anytime before the cops showed up, right? Right??

Yeah, when seconds count, the cops are minutes away. But home invaders generally don't arrive with angle grinders with big cutting wheels, and even if they do, it should take them 3-4 minutes for them to breach any exterior access enough to get a single man inside. Without those...even with a cop-grade ram...it's unlikely they should breach a properly equipped solid-core door in less than 10 minutes. Suppose a chainsaw might work if there was no metal reinforcement on the door, but I have no experience with that scenario. And in any case, I've never heard of a home invasion that didn't involve simple, crude methods (kick in, break glass) which are defeated by these basic measures. I don't think you're planning on a professional intelligence service hit squad targeting you, right?

Not saying that your ultimate plan can't or shouldn't include a gun, but "everything else" should be the avenue you explore for security before you go for the last and most risky resort. Especially since owning a gun probably doesn't cut down on the likelihood that you'll ever be selected as a target, whereas the other stuff might.

 

[jonKranked]

Who lurks for 2.5 years?

sh*tty trolls

 

[manimal]

Before you get a gun, you need to think about real security measures for your house.

I am not anti-gun, and I am a security professional. Until you've assessed your home in terms of presenting an uninviting target and making it very difficult to physically breach, you shouldn't be thinking about a gun. Get a dog! Lighting, alarms, possibly a camera setup, solid York deadbolts, Sargent and Greenleaf security bolts top and/or bottom, possibly window grilles depending on your location, possibly an interior safehaven door leading to your family's sleeping quarters, communications and emergency gear set up inside (landline and cell, plus radio if you're a real nutcase). Not as sexy or fun as a gun but likely to be much more useful.

And when you are thinking about a gun in addition to all this, you should have enough experience and knowledge to make these judgement calls yourself. Your money should go to professional training in practical fighting (not punching holes in paper) and ammunition and an inexpensive, reliable weapon which uses ammunition inexpensive enough for you to buy lots for training. (12ga pump or 9mm pistol)

Short answer to the gun talk is that a shotgun is a great home defense too, and far better than a handgun. The idea that racking a shotgun will send the bad guys screaming for Mama like Ralphie's Red Ryder is anecdotal BS. It might just let them know it's time for them to start shooting at you. The only time they should hear that rack is when it's immediately followed by the report of the shot. Otherwise don't tip your hand and remain covered/concealed or at least blinding them with your weapon light. But since you thought of reinforcing your house, they probably didn't get in anytime before the cops showed up, right? Right??

Yeah, when seconds count, the cops are minutes away. But home invaders generally don't arrive with angle grinders with big cutting wheels, and even if they do, it should take them 3-4 minutes for them to breach any exterior access enough to get a single man inside. Without those...even with a cop-grade ram...it's unlikely they should breach a properly equipped solid-core door in less than 10 minutes. Suppose a chainsaw might work if there was no metal reinforcement on the door, but I have no experience with that scenario. And in any case, I've never heard of a home invasion that didn't involve simple, crude methods (kick in, break glass) which are defeated by these basic measures. I don't think you're planning on a professional intelligence service hit squad targeting you, right?

Not saying that your ultimate plan can't or shouldn't include a gun, but "everything else" should be the avenue you explore for security before you go for the last and most risky resort. Especially since owning a gun probably doesn't cut down on the likelihood that you'll ever be selected as a target, whereas the other stuff might.

I agree completely but to play devils advocate:
solid core door with top/bottom deadbolts = ~$600
walmart shotgun = ~$200

...and i've busted through a solid core door w/ 2 deadbolts AND a metal rod that went from a hole in the floor to a hole in the ceiling in less than 15 seconds with a ram. a door is only as strong as the frame its hung in.

but to reiterate what miked said....a firearm minus A LOT of training in how to use it, in all conditions, is a greater liability than an asset.

 

[IH8Rice]

...and i've busted through a solid core door w/ 2 deadbolts AND a metal rod that went from a hole in the floor to a hole in the ceiling in less than 15 seconds with a ram.

if a robber is trying to get into your house with a ram, then chances are you are probably fvcked when he gets inside

 

[manimal]

if a robber is trying to get into your house with a ram, then chances are you are probably fvcked when he gets inside

they're not that hard to come by....
http://www.columbussupply.com/products/?productid=158

 

[MikeD]

Hm. I'd like to pit Manimal against one of my safehaven doors.

 

[manimal]

Hm. I'd like to pit Manimal against one of my safehaven doors.

just put a cheeseburger on the other side and i'll find a way to get through!

 

[JacobDW]

*note to self. always keep cheeeseburger under seat in case I get pulled over in NC

 

[MikeD]

*note to self. always keep cheeeseburger under seat in case I get pulled over in NC

you want your car eaten?

 

[manimal]

you want your car eaten?

good point...that's like tying raw steak to your ankles and running through the police k-9 kennels

 

[JacobDW]

ok... Ill tie one on a string and dangle it off the bumper like truck nutz...lol

 

[johnbryanpeters]

... Suppose a chainsaw might work if there was no metal reinforcement on the door ...

Fvck the door, go right through a wall... Might as well set the tone right off.

 

[MikeD]

Fvck the door, go right through a wall... Might as well set the tone right off.

Believe me, I've had to convince people sometimes that reinforcing a door was missing the point when dealing with internal walls...

It also makes me laugh that commercial self-storage places always make a mint selling overpriced, hardened padlocks to people about to attach them to a door made of heavy-gauge tin foil.

 

[JohnE]

Short answer to the gun talk is that a shotgun is a great home defense too, and far better than a handgun. The idea that racking a shotgun will send the bad guys screaming for Mama like Ralphie's Red Ryder is anecdotal BS. It might just let them know it's time for them to start shooting at you. The only time they should hear that rack is when it's immediately followed by the report of the shot. Otherwise don't tip your hand and remain covered/concealed or at least blinding them with your weapon light...

Hmmm...would debate this point only in that

a. Concealment goes out the window when you illuminate w/ your weapon light. When working low light scenarios w/ sims, always shoot at the light, or maybe just below it or a foot or so to either side. Now, if we can go to IR...

b. If racking a slide helps me not to take a life, then so be it. If it helps me to take the proper life and protect my family, so be it.

I agree wholeheartedly on all your other points...I have dogs and guns, and if it ever comes down to it, they can take my whole house. Threaten me, Mrs JohnE or the kids tho, you will hve problems. My SOP for the wife when I am gone is to stay in the room w/ the kids, dogs and cel phone. Call 911, then me (But I am 911...) stay put, stay low, charge whatever weapon she grabs. Illuminate the hallway w/ the Surefire light(s), call to whoever is there that they can take anything they want, but if they come down the hall they will die.

And yeah...if you are serious, traintraintrain. And when you think you are done, train some more...find someone else to train you or with you.

 

[manimal]

Hmmm...would debate this point only in that

a. Concealment goes out the window when you illuminate w/ your weapon light. When working low light scenarios w/ sims, always shoot at the light, or maybe just below it or a foot or so to either side. Now, if we can go to IR...

the benefits of blinding the assailant with the weapon light outweighs the fact that you are giving up your position. I have been on both sides in sims as good guy and bad guy (we do A LOT of sims in our shoot house) and having a decent weapon light pointed in your face from anywhere between 0-15 yards is extremely disorienting and gives the person with the light the tactical advantage.
i wish i could post up the vid i edited of last weeks training...i wore a gopro on a chest rig while we did force on force sims...it was highly entertaining to watch from that angle. the angle and reloads looked just like a video game

edit:
i cheated and took a quick screen capture from the vid of a reload while moving/shooting/being shot at.

 

[TheMontashu]

A pistol is the wrong tool for the HOMEINVASION scenario, IMHO. Get a shotgun. Get a tactical style shotgun if you want to flex.

Depends who you are, don't forget, you CAN miss with a shogun. At home defense distances your group is going to be less than 6 inches or so, probably closer to 3 or 4. I can also guarantee that withing 21 feet (the distance for personal defense here in CA) I wont miss with either shot center mass with a 40cal and I will be on target quicker.

 

[manimal]

I wont miss with either shot center mass with a 40cal and I will be on target quicker.

i can prove you wrong on that. if you're faster with a pistol it's only because you haven't trained w/ a shotgun. i just taught an advanced shotgun course last week and one of the drills was to prove that you are faster and more accurate with any type of long gun than you are with a pistol (given that both weapons are already in hand) for instance, one drill was at the 7 yard line (21') and each officer started with the shotgun at low ready. at the buzzer (my shot timer) they had to make a head shot with buckshot, keeping all pellets in the head. then on the next round they had to make the same shot with their pistol, also starting at low ready. the results: average time with shotgun = 1.2 seconds. average time with pistol = 2.8 seconds...and the accuracy was much better with the shotgun.

also, traditional buckshot spreads at 1" per yard. so @ 21' that would be a 7" spread. (we use federal flight control buckshot/slugs and can keep all 9 pellets on the body at 25 yards [75']...and at 7 yards the buckshot stays in a pattern about the size of your fist with flight control)

another thing: the "21 foot rule" is just a model to show that an attacker with an edged weapon can reach you before you can draw your weapon and fire. there is no bright-line rule that says you can shoot anyone within that range or that you can't shoot someone outside of that range as it's only meant for defense against edged weapons. someone pointing a gun at you from 23' away is still a threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury.

 

[RUFUS]

Just buy a few claymores and trip wires. Problem solved!

 

[JohnE]

Claymores are designed to be command actuated...you oare looking for more of a toe popper.
And yeah, Montashu...throw in the pucker factor, a moving arget and low light...$10 says you dont hit center mass. Until you have another human being in your sights, with the ability to take his life in your hands, you dont know. You can spew all the legal facts you can spew, and all the firing range bravado you have, but you dont know until that happens. Some of us have been there.