[don]

Landon had a great post on the 24" wheel thread and I wanted to expand on it in it's own thread. I don't think it should be a pi$$ing match of 24" vs 26" or big wheel vs bmx riding but just a good discussion of riding bikes.

The 24/26 debate doesn't bother me because it's not something anyone even a half step out of the tiny circle of people "concerned" about this even notice. Not to mention a complete non-issue outside of the US. Anyone else notice the Lacondeguys rode 24's at Crankworx? As a manufacturer of a 24 specifc bike, I don't consider this to be any sort of victory..it's just what those kids what to ride. Obviously anything at crankworx could have been ridden on a 24's, and a couple of high profile riders did it. So what?

I also consider my bike a BMX bike, or at least the riding I do is BMX. But that's more out of habit, or maybe because saying I'm going "mountain biking" when I ride a park or trails doesn't sound right to me. When I ride XC, or go to whistler, that's definately "mountain biking" to me. Ulitmately, there's so much overlap of skills and fun that to me, it's all just riding.

Something I'd like to propose to IMBA is to recognize park and dirt jumps as a legit form of mountain biking. The fact is, kids are buying mountain bikes to ride this stuff, and as an industry, BMX hasn't done a very good job of advocacy. Imagine if IMBA was advocating for dirt jump parks? Who knows where that could go. The fact is, very few people live anywhere near actual mountains, especially if you are talking about resort style riding. A vacant lot however, can accomdate something that scores of people can ride, and legitimately prepare themselves for resort riding, or anything. I know IMBA has done a lot to legitmize free-ride trails. Personally, I couldn't imagine really learning how to jump on the free-ride stuff I've seen. For starters, a bike with some travel really helps ride that stuff. But those bikes are expensive, and those places are usually far from where people live. Meaning kids can't participate, and then it's videogame time if they aren't hip to BMX. On the otherhand, a good bike park, with progressive lines...that's where people can go and actually learn something. Kids and adults.

Something that needs to happen is to eliminate this huge distinction between BMX and Mountain Biking. I just got the new Ride, and Fudger tears into mountain bikes in the letters section, again. In his defense, the letter was pretty silly, but it's part of his agenda to print crap, and tear into it. That guy needs to wake-up to the idea that riding a different type of bike doesn't justify completely dismissing a person. This is just being an adult.
I was kind of surprised that mountain bikes weren't mentioned in any of the Red Bull elevation coverage I read. Hard to believe someone didn't rent a bike, try A-line, and dig it. I was waiting for a novelty photo of Inman, or Bohan on a rental bike destroying something. It's just silly to go to Whistler and not ride that mountain. What's the harm to BMX if a kid learns that there's a bigger version of his bike that he can blast down a mountain on?

Thoughts?

 

[don]

I also consider my bike a BMX bike, or at least the riding I do is BMX. But that's more out of habit, or maybe because saying I'm going "mountain biking" when I ride a park or trails doesn't sound right to me. When I ride XC, or go to whistler, that's definately "mountain biking" to me. Ulitmately, there's so much overlap of skills and fun that to me, it's all just riding.

Agree - like I was saying my USB is more BMX than a mtn bike but kids on 20" will call it a mtn bike at the park. I tried a 20" bike years ago and I just felt squirrelly on it. I've been riding 24" bikes (or cruisers as they were originally called) since the mid 80's. My son usually calls my USB my little bike or stunt bike - he's probably the most correct.

Something I'd like to propose to IMBA is to recognize park and dirt jumps as a legit form of mountain biking. The fact is, kids are buying mountain bikes to ride this stuff, and as an industry, BMX hasn't done a very good job of advocacy. Imagine if IMBA was advocating for dirt jump parks? Who knows where that could go. The fact is, very few people live anywhere near actual mountains, especially if you are talking about resort style riding. A vacant lot however, can accomdate something that scores of people can ride, and legitimately prepare themselves for resort riding, or anything. I know IMBA has done a lot to legitmize free-ride trails. Personally, I couldn't imagine really learning how to jump on the free-ride stuff I've seen. For starters, a bike with some travel really helps ride that stuff. But those bikes are expensive, and those places are usually far from where people live. Meaning kids can't participate, and then it's videogame time if they aren't hip to BMX. On the otherhand, a good bike park, with progressive lines...that's where people can go and actually learn something. Kids and adults.

Good points - something like IMBA could be a great thing for more bike parks to be built. And not just freeride zones at the local mtn bike trails. More parks near the local soccer/football/baseball fields would be the way to go. Here is a link to a small writeup w/ pics of a great town park that Hardy Avery and the locals of Stowe, VT built: http://bustedspoke.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=28224&

- it was located right next to one of the town's soccer field.
- Hardy said Seth Holton (I think he's still riding for Metal) helped w/ building some lips so I'm sure a BMX bike would work fine there too
- I was having a great time w/ my son and there were riders of all ages and styles stopping by - from beginners w/ Huffys to freeriders on full sussy rigs.
- It had a great mix of stuff to ride. It was a lot of fun being able to go there and not stress on the "easiest" stuff but also felt good getting thru some of the bigger sets as I built up the confidence.

Also more private parks/camps with diverse riding could be a good thing too. I go to the local skatepark and all the bmx guys look a lot a like in terms of bikes, clothes and styles. It's not a bad thing per say (especially with how good some of them rippers are) but it would be nice to see some something a little different - not to mention some more items I could ride w/ confidence.

My visit to Ray's last year had such a great vibe - different terrain and different riding styles. On one hand there were bmx trail riders blasting the hell out of the boxes and I look over and there is a older woman XC rider going thru the beginner course.

Something that needs to happen is to eliminate this huge distinction between BMX and Mountain Biking. I just got the new Ride, and Fudger tears into mountain bikes in the letters section, again. In his defense, the letter was pretty silly, but it's part of his agenda to print crap, and tear into it. That guy needs to wake-up to the idea that riding a different type of bike doesn't justify completely dismissing a person. This is just being an adult.
I was kind of surprised that mountain bikes weren't mentioned in any of the Red Bull elevation coverage I read. Hard to believe someone didn't rent a bike, try A-line, and dig it. I was waiting for a novelty photo of Inman, or Bohan on a rental bike destroying something. It's just silly to go to Whistler and not ride that mountain. What's the harm to BMX if a kid learns that there's a bigger version of his bike that he can blast down a mountain on?

I just picked up that Ride issue. It's a tough call and I can somewhat see Fudger's point (being that mtn bikes shouldn't be used in parks, djs and street) when he went on to say that he wouldn't be bringing a 20"er onto the lift for downhill runs. The right tool for the job makes sense but what if a kid can only afford one bike? He could have worded his response a lot better but I guess "mtn bikers are teh ghey" gets more magazine sales.

I agree, eliminate the distinction. It seems w/ board sports (skate, surf, snow) they get along and share a lot of moves, styles, and branding and they are being used on completely different surfaces! Going from a different type of bike isn't that much of a change. My guess is the top riders from BMX and mtn biking could switch bikes and still hold there own.

And think about the trails that could made if a spot had all sorts of riders digging. I don't give a crap what you ride but if you don't mind helping to dig, then that's cool in my book.

 

[Mudpuppy]

I just picked up that Ride issue. It's a tough call and I can somewhat see Fudger's point (being that mtn bikes shouldn't be used in parks, djs and street)

Surely you didn't mean that? 20" bikes do fit in most current skatepark designs better than 26"ers, but a 16" bike would fit better than a 20" and I don't see anyone riding those in parks except little kids on kids bikes.

The tiresize issue just comes down to preference. Find a bike that is comfortable to ride with as close to your preffered tire size as you can get. I've had a 20", I have a cruiser, I've had 24" and 26" mountainbikes, and my current bike has a 24/26 setup. Personally I want a bike with 26" wheels on both ends. I ride skateparks and I dirtjump, but just as often if not more I ride xc or freeride and I'm looking for the proper balance of performance between trailriding and playriding. BUT I still have my cruiser. If I didn't have it 24" might be my compromise choice. One thing is for sure, I don't want any bike smaller than my cruiser, I just don't feel comfortable on them. No 20"ers for me.

I guess the real point I'm trying to make is that how well you fit the bike is more important than how well the bike fits the terrain.

 

[don]

Surely you didn't mean that? 20" bikes do fit in most current skatepark designs better than 26"ers, but a 16" bike would fit better than a 20" and I don't see anyone riding those in parks except little kids on kids bikes.

The tiresize issue just comes down to preference. Find a bike that is comfortable to ride with as close to your preffered tire size as you can get. I've had a 20", I have a cruiser, I've had 24" and 26" mountainbikes, and my current bike has a 24/26 setup. Personally I want a bike with 26" wheels on both ends. I ride skateparks and I dirtjump, but just as often if not more I ride xc or freeride and I'm looking for the proper balance of performance between trailriding and playriding. BUT I still have my cruiser. If I didn't have it 24" might be my compromise choice. One thing is for sure, I don't want any bike smaller than my cruiser, I just don't feel comfortable on them. No 20"ers for me.

Well, Matt Berringer and S&M are coming out w/ a 16" pit bike But I see what you mean. The pics on USB's and Tonic's sites show some rippers that don't seem to be held back by using 24" wheels. But those bikes are closer to bmx bikes than mtn bikes. I'm guessing Fudger was thinking more a true mtn bike w/ gears, knobbies, and shocks. If that's the case then I can see his point but again, don't like how he expressed it.

And like I said, if I only had one bike it would be a 26"er and I would most likely ride it at the skatepark and certainly at the dirt jumps and in the woods on XC stuff. You'll notice in the pics at Stowe I had my Sinister Ridge because I wanted to get some of the fine XC/trail riding in up there and I only had room for one bike. I just threw a shorter stem and flats and had a good time at that jump park. I also rode that bike a good 2 hours the day before on some of Stowe's amazing trail.

I guess the real point I'm trying to make is that how well you fit the bike is more important than how well the bike fits the terrain.

Agree to a point.

 

[Landon]

Don, thanks for bringing this post up!

As I mentioned, I find Fudger's logic flawed. There is indeed a-right-tool-for-the-job. It's the bike you are riding.

I think the comparision to board sports is a wise one. They all seem to get along, so why can't we?

Anyway, I understand that Fudger may be defensive about BMX, but he's picking the wrong target. Video games and cars will pull more kids from BMX than mountain bikes will. And the kids that do decide to ride mountain bikes aren't even pulled away....those kids are still going to buy BMX media, and parts, and clothing.

I just think there' s something to be gained from some co-operation. It's true, BMX and MTB are 2 very different industries, but there's a lot of over-lap too. Especially when it comes to access to riding spots.

 

[Boxxer]

Its because board sports have always pretty much been a fringe or cool thing. When snowboarding was 'banned' at alot of mountains, it just made it cooler.

Early MTB was about XC, it was about older riders and lycra, but its grown and changed since then. Joe Public has always been slow to see these changes. You say "MTB" to most people and they still think lycra, older people and expensive bikes. We, the ones involved in the sport intimately know it... and we see 10 different styles within MTB. Some of us may not even know what to call the bikes we ride, because the styles, bikes and competitions have blured the lines. BMXers, especially old school ones, still dont want to be attached to that stigma of lycra. BMX is still seen as hardcore by Joe Public, so why compromise that by allowing those lycra clad MTBrs around?

Change will come with time... and the lines separating 20 and 26 inch riders will fade. The USB and Tonic frames are just the start.

All that being said, tonight at our local park.... the 26" riders all hang together and the 20" riders hang in another group. Its changing though, now we kinda jokingly make fun of eachother... share advice, tricks, borrow bikes ride street together sometimes too. Now, if we could only find a place for the 24"ers .

 

[chillindrdude]

i guess i'll chime in and be on the flipside of the coin. there should be a distinction between MTB and BMX. there are skills to either that are unique and those elite athletes of either sport has many of those skills mastered. i believe even lopes and gracia has remarked how many 4x tracks nowadays are simply rehashed BMX tracks. while there are similarities with starting technique and jumping, both respected athletes of the sport has commented that there needs to be more "MTB" terrain. IE, flat corners, off cambers, stutter bumps, logs, even small drops. i believe that "MTB" disciplines are primarily XC, DH, 4X, and mega-avalanche type events. i guess you may call me a purist or a dumbass. i think DJ/Street (with 24" or 26")should NOT be in that catagory. while some skills that those DJ/street riders do in fact translate to DH or 4x, the converse is not necessarily true.

i think BMXers are talented group of riders. in fact all bicyclists in all disciplines are. what i don't support is the "punk-ass" attitude of BMXers that thinks its ok to ride and destroy/vandalize private property and the lack of simple common sense in picking up a helmet.

(bracing myself for the flaming)

 

[Landon]

My point is that Fudger's dismissal of mountain bikes is very short sighted. Rather than consider mountain bikers an obstacle, look at them as an asset. Another user group and industry with some significant differences granted, but also a lot of overlap with BMX.
It makes sense in my mind to work together for some common goals, and agree to disagree beyond that.

BMXers that thinks its ok to ride and destroy/vandalize private property and the lack of simple common sense in picking up a helmet.

Fair observation. BMX attracts some kids who come from very, very hard backgrounds. I'll leave it at that.

that there needs to be more "MTB" terrain. IE, flat corners, off cambers, stutter bumps, logs, even small drops. i believe that "MTB" disciplines are primarily XC, DH, 4X, and mega-avalanche type events. i guess you may call me a purist or a dumbass. i think DJ/Street (with 24" or 26")should NOT be in that catagory. while some skills that those DJ/street riders do in fact translate to DH or 4x, the converse is not necessarily true.

I feel like this summarizes an identity problem that mountain biking suffers from. There's a deliberate effort to keep events that have a very strong and obvious BMX influence more "mountain bike." Like putting flat corners in a 4x course, or deliberately making jumps bumpy or awkward to maintain some standard as a mountain bike event. I thought Lopes just wanted bigger jumps?

As for your negative attitude towards DJ/park riding; think again. It simply doesn't make sense to exclude the disciplines (DJ/park)that are accessible and exciting to young people. And frankly where I'd guess most good MTB gravity pros spend a lot of time.

Something that's being promoted in the MTB media that looks boring as hell to me are "pump tracks." Kids are definately not going to look at that and get excited about the sport. What's wrong with getting an ABA membership and riding a BMX track to learn to do that?

In my experience I've had much less attitude from even Pro BMXers than novice free-riders. The amount of attitude I've been flipped from free-riders while I'm riding XC is unbelieveable.

Focus on the similarities, rather than the differences. That's all I'm saying.

 

[chillindrdude]

excellent reply, many good points.

i am in agreement that there are attitudes on both sides. and even with in "mtb" ranks. the freeride vs XC'er, like you pointed out is there. close-mindedness is something that no sport needs.

 

[don]

My point is that Fudger's dismissal of mountain bikes is very short sighted. Rather than consider mountain bikers an obstacle, look at them as an asset. Another user group and industry with some significant differences granted, but also a lot of overlap with BMX.
It makes sense in my mind to work together for some common goals, and agree to disagree beyond that.

I wonder if Fudger has even looked at it in that light or if he still has a "lycra" based mtn bike image like Boxxer mentioned. Or maybe he likes BMX right where it is. At the very least, he is thinking just like the skateboarders that say BMXers shouldn't ride in skateparks.

Fair observation. BMX attracts some kids who come from very, very hard backgrounds. I'll leave it at that.

BMX does attract some kids from hard backgrounds - I've seen it a few times. In a way it's good as these kids have an outlet and in many cases, riding spots like the local trails or the park are a lot better for them than home. The thing I don't like is the ghetto/dirtbag lifestyle that is promoted as acceptable. I'm seeing more and more smoking, drunk behaviour, breaking stuff and shananigans and on vids. It makes it hard to watch vids with my son. I think it's great for him to see the creativity, determination, individuality and hard work that these guys do but don't want him to be exposed to the dirtbag stuff.

I feel like this summarizes an identity problem that mountain biking suffers from. There's a deliberate effort to keep events that have a very strong and obvious BMX influence more "mountain bike." Like putting flat corners in a 4x course, or deliberately making jumps bumpy or awkward to maintain some standard as a mountain bike event. I thought Lopes just wanted bigger jumps?

As for your negative attitude towards DJ/park riding; think again. It simply doesn't make sense to exclude the disciplines (DJ/park)that are accessible and exciting to young people. And frankly where I'd guess most good MTB gravity pros spend a lot of time.

The MX in BMX stands for Motocross. And if you think about it current day mtn bikes are more like motocross bikes than current day BMX bikes - riders in padded armor, bikes w/ knobbies, suspension, disc brakes, gears, and terrain on dirt and rocks and in the woods. Old BMX tracks had a lot of flat turns and ruts. BITD I raced at Southwick, MA (known for it's motocross track) and that track was defintely moto w/ the sand and layout. I guess as speeds increased BMX tracks became smoother.

I think there is a lot of overlap between mtb and bmx racing. From what I've read BMX racing could use some help w/ organizing and growth. There could be an exciting combination of BMX, 4x, and DH. Something with laps and some real racing instead of "follow the leader" stuff. Why is BMX & mtb racing not even a 1/4 as big as moto & supercross when pedal bikes are a lot more accessable to people?

Something that's being promoted in the MTB media that looks boring as hell to me are "pump tracks." Kids are definately not going to look at that and get excited about the sport. What's wrong with getting an ABA membership and riding a BMX track to learn to do that?

I have to say, the pump tracks I've ridden are pretty fun and my 7 year old loves it. What I really like is seeing them in the backyards of houses - sorta like a mini-half for bikes. I built one at my house - although I have 2 doubles line option to make it more fun. My winter project is to incorporate our mini-half into it more where you can go in and out of the pump track, hit the doubles and get into and out of the half.

I think younger kids and entry level/beginners would love pump tracks. And I think they are a great way to get a starter rider used to pumping and carving w/out much risk. If a rider can get thru a pump track w/out a pedal they are doing something right. Where there is more buidlable room I think pump tracks could be bigger and have more jumpable stuff and also be integrated w/ some of the DJ sets or stunts. If you think about it a pump track is just a smaller more stuctured version of carving some concrete bowls. (Slightly OT: To see some amazing pool carving check out Brian Foster's part in Fit Life :damn

BTW, I grew up racing BMX and loved it. But I haven't exposed my son to it. Why? It can be a pain in the ass. The closest track for us is 40 minutes away and a local race will take up a good part of the day. During practice you can get a lot of riding in but if you not racing your moto you're waiting around. I much rather spend a solid 3 hours at the trails and get as much riding in as I can handle. Instead of being in the car driving or waiting for a moto during the middle part of a Saturday or Sunday.

 

[chillindrdude]

i think you hit it on the nose there don, i enjoy watch BMX street and park video on G4 channel. i appreciated the skill and creativity, but definitely don't condone the crude behavior a la "Jackass" and today, on a Props Megatour 30 minute segment, a bunch of BMXers were defacing a synagogue and then laughed about it when they were finally told to leave by 2 caretakers.

then there are BMX racers, which i think, especially in Europe, rival DH racers in terms of professionalism and training. races are always fun to watch

 

[Cru Jones]

Interesting. Good points all around. I'm an old school BMX racer, turned BMX dirt jumper, turned 26" dirt jumper. I guess the main reason I switched to the MTB was because it was different. But, now I like it more because I feel more comfortable on a bigger bike (I'm tall). And, coincidentally, my new local dirt jumps almost require larger wheels and suspension (lots of rocks, bumps, and dust). It can be done on a 20, but it's not nearly as smooth or safe.

The walls are definitely coming down between MTBing and BMXing. But, to me, the biggest difference that nobody has mentioned is the cost. You can get an awesome complete 20" for less than I paid for my MTB fork!!! I think this partially contributes to keeping the two sports segregated in terms of class and age.

I think BMXing is where it's at in terms of developing bike skills at a young age. Don't most top MTB riders (outside of XC) have BMX backgrounds? Lopes was mentioned earlier, I know he does. To me, it's hard to imagine becoming that good growing up riding a 26" mountain bike... it's simply too big and heavy at a young age.

So, anyway, I think there should be more merging of the two. More 4X type events, more gnarly dirt jumping and ramp riding on any bike you want. By the way... Bart Taylor would have kicked my butt all up and down Hell Track if he would have been on a mountain bike!!!

 

[spacemanspiff06]

to me, wheel size is all about how you ride and what you're comfortable on. Where you ride only to point, you don't want a 20 on a FR trail, ect. in my group of a dozen or so riders the only wheel size that isn't well represented is 700c. (which, buy the way, i don't understand completely, but have all respect for.) we've got 3 on 26", 1 on 26/24", 3 on 24" and a bunch on 20" personalt i went with 24s because i'll ride anything from light buff FR trails to a mini half, and i wanted a bike that's just as vercitle, plus the first one i got on felt instantly comfortable. it had that 20" feel without the squirrly feeling.
still, when i look at my other friends i can see that they're on the right bike for them. like one whos on a P2 with a 110mm z1 an dual 26s. he'll launch bigger and skechier stuff then i will, and that's the stuff that he feels at home on. then again, tight, steep rythem sections that i'll eat for midnight snacks, he'll be out of place and have a hard time getting through with any speed.
i guess what i'm trying to say, pick your bike based on what you do, and relize that you can learn stuff from any other rider. if you ostrasize a group because of what they ride, you're missing out.

 

[Landon]

Some very good points made here.

I'm still very keen on the idea that DJ and park riding should be recognized by IMBA, and interested in seeing what might be possible on a local level.

 

[don]

The walls are definitely coming down between MTBing and BMXing. But, to me, the biggest difference that nobody has mentioned is the cost. You can get an awesome complete 20" for less than I paid for my MTB fork!!! I think this partially contributes to keeping the two sports segregated in terms of class and age.

Great point. Cost is a very big issue. And there are a couple things that has happened over the past 10 years that has messed this up:

- Standards - Cru and some other old school BMX'ers can probably remember getting their first BMX bike. Mine was a Columbia that my parents got from one of the big stores. I would have loved a Mongoose or RedLine (I'm sure some of you new schoolers are saying WTF?) but they were some bucks more. The great thing about that Columbia? The geometry was pretty close to said Mongoose or RedLine. And when I save some money, I went down to the LBS and got a new stem (double gooseneck ACS - LOL) and some bars. The stem bolted right up. Saved for some cranks - those worked as well (US BB). As I got more into riding, I ended up replacing a lot of the parts and when my dad stripped the paint and gave it a new paint job it looked pretty f'n rad. But that Columbia frame and fork was able to be used to hang the nicer parts on.

- Branding - I knew my Columbia (along w/ the Huffy and Murrays) wasn't a great brand but it served well and when I finally got a Hutch, it made the experience that much better. Now Mongoose and Schwinn are sold at Toys R Us with the other crap.

- Quality - now you have bike at Toys R Us that are complete crap. I was there last week w/ my son and the bikes are just garbage. Stamped metal brakes? I couldn't find one part that was any decent. I know the bike was $60 but I can only imagine how aweful that thing shifted and rode. On the other end you have the boutique stuff both BMX and MTB that can be rediculusly high. Like you said Cru, forks alone that are as much as a good complete 20"

So, anyway, I think there should be more merging of the two. More 4X type events, more gnarly dirt jumping and ramp riding on any bike you want. By the way... Bart Taylor would have kicked my butt all up and down Hell Track if he would have been on a mountain bike!!!

o man, that Bart Taylor comment had me laughing! When I was talking about expanding the BMX race format - having some stuff from the RAD track/race might not be bad - like mulit laps and some different obstacles and non-typical U within a U track layout. That starting hill might not be possible tho!

 

[Cru Jones]

That starting hill might not be possible tho!

Haha, yeah, I remember reading somewhere that the original starting "wall" for Hell Track was about twice as high. But, none of the pro riders that they filmed would do it, so they had to cut it down.