[RenegadeRick]

This rolling stone article http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen describes how the 2004 election was stolen.

It points out voter fraud, disenfranchisement, voting machine errors, exit poll discrepancies, etc., etc., etc.

It is pretty clear to me that there was a conflict of interest in Ohio:

But in the battle for Ohio, Republicans had a distinct advantage: The man in charge of the counting was Kenneth Blackwell, the co-chair of President Bush's re-election committee.(43) As Ohio's secretary of state, Blackwell had broad powers to interpret and implement state and federal election laws -- setting standards for everything from the processing of voter registration to the conduct of official recounts.(44) And as Bush's re-election chair in Ohio, he had a powerful motivation to rig the rules for his candidate.

What do you think?

 

[valve bouncer]

I think it's 2006 and Bush won. Concentrate on the next one.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I think people should get over it and quit whining. If everbody who whined turned out of DO THEIR CIVIC DUTY and vote, we wouldnt be having this issue.

...I actually didnt vote, becuase they equally sucked IMO.

 

[Echo]

It's definitely nothing new that the election process in the US is a complete joke. There ain't a damn thing anyone can do about it either.

 

[Tenchiro]

It doesn't matter how we vote anyways, in most states the electoral college can vote any way they choose. Even if it goes against the popular vote.

 

[Tenchiro]

I think people should get over it and quit whining. If everbody who whined turned out of DO THEIR CIVIC DUTY and vote, we wouldnt be having this issue.

...I actually didnt vote, becuase they equally sucked IMO.

I didn't vote in the presidential race either.

 

[BurlyShirley]

It doesn't matter how we vote anyways, in most states the electoral college can vote any way they choose. Even if it goes against the popular vote.

But they dont.

 

[Da Peach]

I don't understand the electoral process either, but you still gotta vote. Do a little research, make a decision, then vote. I'm Canadian, so who gives a crap what I think, but if you don't vote, you forfeit your right to complain.

 

[Tenchiro]

But they dont.

It happened in the 2000 vote.

 

[BurlyShirley]

It happened in the 2000 vote.

No it didnt.

The popular vote didnt win the election, but that wasnt the fault of the electoral college voting improperly. This is a common mistake.

See, each state is seperated by districts, and some districts have higher populations than others, however, the person with the MOST districts not the most VOTES wins the state. Each state has a set number of electorates, and in MOST states, ALL electorates MUST vote for the guy who won the entire state. So that the popular vote didnt win the election isnt an issue of the college voting AGAINST the grain, its a good example of how politicians use the system to their advantage.

The electoral college isnt BOUND by any written rule to vote this way, HOWEVER, they all abide by the set rules.

 

[RenegadeRick]

It happened in the 2000 vote.

Not exactly.

What happened in 2000 was that even though Gore won the popular vote, Bush won the electoral college vote, and that is the vote that matters.

It is true, however, that most states do require their electoral colleges to vote according to the popular vote.

This document explains how the electoral college works.

 

[RenegadeRick]

some (most, actually) states DO require their colleges to vote according to the popular vote:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20001225/editors

Legally, because under the Electoral College electors are not bound by the Constitution to follow the popular vote, and in twenty-four states they remain free to vote their conscience. In twenty-six others they are required by state law to follow the popular vote.

 

[Upgr8r]

I don't understand the electoral process either, but you still gotta vote. Do a little research, make a decision, then vote. I'm Canadian, so who gives a crap what I think, but if you don't vote, you forfeit your right to complain.

I didn't really care for either candidate, but felt anything would be better than Bush for four more years. Too bad more people didn't agree with me.

 

[RenegadeRick]

I didn't really care for either candidate, but felt anything would be better than Bush for four more years. Too bad more people didn't agree with me.

The point of the article is that MORE people DID agree with you.

 

[Upgr8r]

Point taken

 

[CdaleTony]

Hey Rick!
Hmm Ohio disenfranchisment (R)....
Wisconsin issues/car tires flattened (D)..
Chicago ANYTHING (D)
I guess we can all learn there is always going to be partisan whining about The Other Guys Tricks..


What can one do?

 

[RenegadeRick]

Hey Rick!
Hmm Ohio disenfranchisment (R)....
Wisconsin issues/car tires flattened (D)..
Chicago ANYTHING (D)
I guess we can all learn there is always going to be partisan whining about The Other Guys Tricks..


What can one do?

Do you have sources for the issues you mention in Chicago and Wisconsin? Illinois and Wisconsin are established democratic states, not battleground states, so fraud is less of an issue here.

But, if there is evidence of vote fraud going on I would be interested in hearing about that. I'm against anything that prevents an honest election.

The evidence provided in the article would be enough to have potentially changed the election outcome. Democrats stuffing ballots in a democratic state makes little difference, wrong as it may be

 

[DaveW]

Try these........
BBC Investigation 1
BBC Investigation 2

 

[RenegadeRick]

Try these........
BBC Investigation 1
BBC Investigation 2

Thanks for the links, but I was asking about evidence of Republicans having been interfered with, not interfering with Democrats. That evidence is pretty well established...

 

[DaveW]

Ah my bad, sorry.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

I think people should get over it and quit whining. If everbody who whined turned out of DO THEIR CIVIC DUTY and vote, we wouldnt be having this issue.

Um, I thought the issue was that people did go out and try to vote. Many of them were turned away, others had their votes not count, and other had their votes count for the other guy.

Yeah, there's not much we can do about it now, but maybe we can take our lessons learned and try to avoid repeats in the future? Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Um, I thought the issue was that people did go out and try to vote. Many of them were turned away, others had their votes not count, and other had their votes count for the other guy.

No.

 

[N8 v2.0]

No.

Kerry lost the election all on his own.... can't blame anyone except him for the loss...

 

[fluff]

Kerry lost the election all on his own.... can't blame anyone except him for the loss...

Would you not prefer a voting system that left less room for doubt, even if it meant the risk of your preferred candidate not being elected?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Would you not prefer a voting system that left less room for doubt, even if it meant the risk of your preferred candidate not being elected?

There is no doubt.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

There is no doubt.

Obviously, there is, just as there was in 2000 and many other elections before then.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Would you not prefer a voting system that left less room for doubt, even if it meant the risk of your preferred candidate not being elected?

The voting system is pretty reliable. People like to bitch when they dont get their way is all.

IMO, Lieberman was the Dem's ticket last time around. Id've voted for him. They screwed it up all on their own by nominating lurch.

 

[fluff]

The voting system is pretty reliable. People like to bitch when they dont get their way is all.

IMO, Lieberman was the Dem's ticket last time around. Id've voted for him. They screwed it up all on their own by nominating lurch.

Hey, I can't vote in the US so I have no axe to grind. It seems to me that the Diebold system has fundamental flaws, the incorrect disenfranchisment of thousands of people and the failure to count all papers are not indicative of a good voting system.

So long as the 'loser' can cry foul and so long as the winner appears to have their hand in the cookie jar it needs reforming.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Hey, I can't vote in the US so I have no axe to grind. It seems to me that the Diebold system has fundamental flaws, the incorrect disenfranchisment of thousands of people and the failure to count all papers are not indicative of a good voting system.

So long as the 'loser' can cry foul and so long as the winner appears to have their hand in the cookie jar it needs reforming.

It doenst have fundamental flaws, the "losers" attribute their shortcomings to any random half assed justification they can find. Voting is a pretty simple process really.
With any MASSIVE voting system across a huge place like the US, there are bound to be some discrepancies, but they acount for a minor minor fraction of the populace overall.... There was no stolen election.

 

[fluff]

It doenst have fundamental flaws, the "losers" attribute their shortcomings to any random half assed justification they can find. Voting is a pretty simple process really.
With any MASSIVE voting system across a huge place like the US, there are bound to be some discrepancies, but they acount for a minor minor fraction of the populace overall.... There was no stolen election.

Perhaps you should read this: http://www.theregister.com/2006/05/14/diebold_e-voting_flaw/

Note that I am not claiming the election was stolen, simply that the voting process is sufficiently flawed to allow doubt.

Edit: Furthermore the way that the US electoral system works it does not take a huge number of votes to make a critical difference.

 

[RenegadeRick]

Um, I thought the issue was that people did go out and try to vote. Many of them were turned away, others had their votes not count, and other had their votes count for the other guy.

Yes this did happen.
See: Washington Post

Um, I thought the issue was that people did go out and try to vote. Many of them were turned away <snip>

from the same article: Washington Post
Some regular voters filed affidavits stating that their registrations had been expunged. "I'm 52, and I've voted in every single election," Kathy Janoski of Columbus said. "They kept telling me, 'You must be mistaken about your precinct.' I told them this is where I've always voted. I felt like I'd been scrubbed off the rolls."

<snip>and other had their votes count for the other guy.

from the same article: Washington Post
In Youngstown, 25 electronic machines transferred an unknown number of votes for Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) to the Bush column.

In northeastern Ohio, in the fading industrial city of Youngstown, Jeanne White, a veteran voter and manager at the Buckeye Review, an African American newspaper, stepped into the booth, pushed the button for Kerry -- and watched her vote jump to the Bush column. "I saw what happened; I started screaming: 'They're cheating again and they're starting early!' "

<snip>others had their votes not count<snip>

from the same article: Washington Post
As expected, there were more provisional ballots, and officials disqualified about 23 percent. In Hamilton County, which encompasses Cincinnati and its Ohio suburbs, 1,110 provisional ballots got tossed out because people voted in the wrong precinct. In about 40 percent of those cases, voters found the right polling place -- which contained multiple precincts -- but workers directed them to the wrong table.

In Cleveland, officials disqualified about one-third of the provisional ballots. Vu, the election board chief, said that some poll workers may have also mixed up their punch-card styluses -- that would account for why a few overwhelmingly Democratic precincts recorded large numbers of votes for conservative third-party candidates.

 

[DaveW]

It doenst have fundamental flaws, the "losers" attribute their shortcomings to any random half assed justification they can find. Voting is a pretty simple process really.
With any MASSIVE voting system across a huge place like the US, there are bound to be some discrepancies, but they acount for a minor minor fraction of the populace overall.... There was no stolen election.

Your sort of right.... Not fundamental flaws.

MASSIVE flaws are what it has! Diebold 1
Diebold 2