[Nagaredama]

Sweet Devinci!

The geo on the newer ones is dialled. When it comes time to replace my 2007 it will be with a new one.

 

[- seb]

So I've still not even ridden the bike, and I've already taken a file to it!

Let me explain.. One thing I don't like about the frame is the cable routing. It seems messy to me, having them going down either side of the downtube like that. Furthermore, some UK races stack the bikes up against each other, and the gearcable in particular (not being as tough as a brake hose) is going to have a hard time where it is.

Occurred to me as soon as I got the frame that the cable could be tucked under the shock shuttle, and under the linkage lower pivot, going down the channel in the middle.

Unfortunately there wasn't QUITE enough space under the shock shuttle. With 4mm cable it was just out, so I've filed a bit off the bottom of the shuttle:

Works a treat now, and looks a lot neater.

I'd like to do the same with the brake hose the other side, but since it needs to go under the (welded in place) main pivot, I'd have to remove the caliper/lever from the hose every time I want to take the brake off of the frame for whatever reason. Is that worth the hassle?

No "after" photo at the moment, reassembling now (+ getting a bit dark here).

 

[davet]

I'd have to remove the caliper/lever from the hose every time I want to take the brake off of the frame for whatever reason. Is that worth the hassle?.

Didn't you used to have an Orange? You should be used to that by now!

 

[al-irl]

Viktor Nice devinci a pair of black teams would finish it off perfectly


Seb if your thinking of 2010 world cups you might want to get your name in the queue. I put 2 pairs on order today and was told august for delivery as the first shipment into the uk is all pre sold. I think ill be keeping them in a box till i get my ride for 2010.

 

[- seb]

Yeah I can believe it... I've not preordered because if I save myself £1k from keeping running my 2006 forks... it's not the end of the world, lol!

And yep davet - I did it once I think, then just kept to ziptieing it along the top of the swingarm like everyone else!

 

[HighMinion]

When is the first shipment supposed to arrive (2010 Boxxers)? Sorry side question. May try your cable routing on my bike as well irate2:

 

[Demomonkey]

Hmm, I'll have to trawl though my dirts and find that, any idea of an issue number of year/month?

It has the IH Sunday, 2nd gen V10, DeVinci and Sinister R9 in it. Dont nknow m/y as I'm at work

 

[saruti]

nice bike man
anyone know what is the axle path of the rear wheel on this frame?
how does it feel on square edge bumps?

thanks.

 

[davep]

It is essentially a single pivot axle path (I would guess it is within a mm of the actual radius)...like the vast majority of current horst itterations.

To get any significant change from a simple radius with the main pivot as the center, the horst pivot needs to be a good bit lower than the axle. The benefit to a horst can be braking forces/interactions as the brake is mounted to the seat stay, not the chain stay....but the result is dependant on the layout/angles of the other links.

 

[TankerX]

that is a steezy weezy ride!!!..awesome bro

 

[al-irl]

When is the first shipment supposed to arrive (2010 Boxxers)? Sorry side question. May try your cable routing on my bike as well irate2:

The first shippment is due to the uk in about 2 months time and then the second one is due end of august.

As for the cable routing. Its the way to go. All my mates who are riding wilsons have done the same thing. Its much neater.

 

[DhDork]

Shimano limit screws aren't long enough though, so at the moment I need to be careful (they're long enough if you go 7-speed, but not 6-speed). I have a bolt on its way to me in the post that will hopefully rectify it.

If you have one or can get a shop to hook you up with a B-Tension screw from an older beat up road derailleur, that will work as a longer limit screw. From what I've seen on the older Shimano road derailleurs, the threading is the same, just the bolt is a little longer. Might be a slight different on the new Dura-Ace though.

Sweet bike. I'm just still trying to figure out why everyone is going all out for super lightweight bikes.

 

[HighMinion]

The first shippment is due to the uk in about 2 months time and then the second one is due end of august.

As for the cable routing. Its the way to go. All my mates who are riding wilsons have done the same thing. Its much neater.

Cheers, wonder if NA has the same dates. Looks much cleaner with the cables in the new position.

 

[duck]

That looks great Seb. I like what you've done for the cable routing, throw up some pics of it when you can.

 

[William42]

Sweet bike. I'm just still trying to figure out why everyone is going all out for super lightweight bikes.

He is the original. He's been doing light weight bikes since before I was born!

 

[- seb]

Aye, I do like a light bike, I'm certainly jumping on no bandwagon: my 222 was 36lb back in 2001!

DhDork: got some M4x20mm grub screws in the post, has done the trick perfectly (even though they're 0.7mm thread and the internet hints that shimano mechs are "probably" 0.75mm). Cheers for the info though!

 

[miuan]

Aye, I do like a light bike, I'm certainly jumping on no bandwagon: my 222 was 36lb back in 2001!

Talking bandwagons, you sure don't set your shock shuttle into the high setting like you did on the Orange anymore, do you.

Still a nice option for the rough tracks though!

One more question. I have not ridden mine yet and the bearings barely move. Is it normal with this type of bearings, will they bed in after a couple of rides or is there something overtightened or wrong from the factory?

Edit: I also have a 6-gear 9-spacing cassette. With X9 mech I was unable to limit the desired movement range whatever long the screw was. So I did a little extreme tuning as seen in the pic on the left. Works well and can still be removed.

 

[Gary]

love that pic Seb! it doesn't even need scales to prove the weight, it's so light the BB is trying to float off (what was it 16"?) :biggrin:

 

[- seb]

Hah, the bike I had before was a Coyote DH2 that I'd uprated from 5.5" to 8" by fitting a long Risse Jupiter5 shock. The BB on that thing was sky high!

On the 222 I've no idea why I had my shock shuttle in that position, what was I thinking?!

Miuan - still not ridden mine, will tomorrow. My bearings also seem very tight, when I initially took the shock out I could still barely move the swingarm! Now that I've bounced on it a bit, and moved it by hand a few times, things seem to be loosening up. I'm sure it's just tight tolerances and bearings rammed full of grease, and it'll be fine after a couple of runs. I'll report back after the weekend!

 

[- seb]

Actually thinking about it I wonder if there were clearance issues on the 5th reservoir, and I had to run it where it is?

This pre-stripping photo might support that:

 

[Gary]

wasn't there clearance to run it with the res at the swingarm end?

 

[- seb]

Possibly, maybe the shockhardware was different either end and I didn't have the tools/inclination to switch it over. I don't know, it was a long time ago, and my memory sucks. Maybe I just liked a steeper headangle back then

 

[Supa8]

The old seb is back from back in the day! I remember quite a few weight saving posts from years ago. Oh, and nice DV Wilson you have built up there. Almost went for one a few years back. Newer version seems pretty slick.

 

[saruti]

can someone please draw the axle path of this bike?
I now ride a sunday for over 2 years.
and I want to go back to FSR...
so how is this frame VS the sunday?

thanks.

 

[Dogboy]

can someone please draw the axle path of this bike?

 

[big-ted]

^

I dunno if that's real, but it sure brightened my morning...

 

[saruti]

if this is for real it seems like it doesn't have backward axle path.

thanks dogboy

 

[brian field]

can someone please draw the axle path of this bike?
I now ride a sunday for over 2 years.
and I want to go back to FSR...
so how is this frame VS the sunday?

thanks.

i smell fanboy...

 

[davep]

can someone please draw the axle path of this bike?
I now ride a sunday for over 2 years.
and I want to go back to FSR...
so how is this frame VS the sunday?

thanks.

for the second time:

It is essentially a single pivot axle path (I would guess it is within a mm of the actual radius)...like the vast majority of current horst itterations.

To get any significant change from a simple radius with the main pivot as the center, the horst pivot needs to be a good bit lower than the axle. The benefit to a horst can be braking forces/interactions as the brake is mounted to the seat stay, not the chain stay....but the result is dependant on the layout/angles of the other links


If you want a picture, use a compass and draw a semi-circle around the main pivot.

 

[davep]

if this is for real it seems like it doesn't have backward axle path.

thanks dogboy

why would you think it has a rearward axle path with a low pivot?

 

[xy9ine]

Aye, I do like a light bike, I'm certainly jumping on no bandwagon: my 222 was 36lb back in 2001!

sweet! i remember that build. very cool. my 2001 rm-7 was ~36lbs as well (all ti hardware, ti spoked wheels, xvert carbon, carbon bars, etc); definitely ahead of the curve (or at least we come by our current weenie-ism honestly).

 

[saruti]

sorry davep. didnt saw your replay before.
so.. is there a good FSR frame with a rearward axle path?

thanks

 

[- seb]

davep; are you saying that the horst on my bike is probably completely pointless, and it may as well be a single pivot for all the good it does me? Maybe I'm reading between the lines... I'll happily admit that I'm not the most clued up person when it comes to suspension designs!

 

[Rhubarb]

I am in the market this year for a good match to my Wildcard which I bought for a specific reason and it is perfect for its intended use. I want to build a more Mini DH rig and I am interest in various suspension designs to match my style. I know what geometry I want and I know what things I dont want and that helps narrow the list down. The UK Banshee/Mythic supplier also carries Devinci and I was impressed when I was looking at the frames.
So I have read in this thread that some people prefer Horst for DH over some other designs. Can you explain why? I dont knock single pivots, also owned a Orange, or any other designs I just like to know where some are better.

 

[davep]

Not that I can think of...at least not frames readily avialable in this country. The older horst frames like the intense m1 and older specialized bikes had a bit of a rearward path at the begining (look at the Giant NRS for an extreme example). This is because of the very low and forward chainstay pivot. As the suspension compresses, the effective chainstay length increases for the first part of the travel.

All of the companies that currently use the Horst that I can think of right now(spec, nicolai, ellsworth, divinci, norco, older turner) have the chainstay pivot very near the axle (horizontal) and very close to the line the connects the main pivot and axle. Over the past few years, all these companies have moved the chainstay pivot closer and closer to the rear axle. This placement of the chainstay pivot minimized the lengthining effect of the chainstay and is essentially a single pivot as far as axle path. When turner dropped the horst, Dave Turner mentioned that the non-horst axle path varied no more that a mm or two from the prior horst configuration.

Remember, a noticably rearward axle path will be accompanied by significant chain torque that wants to pull the rear wheel back down and forward (anti-squat) unless the chain path is modified (idler or similar).
The giant NRS needed to be run with ZERO sag...or the anti-squat would make the bikes rear end extend every pedal stroke....inch-worming along.

 

[- seb]

So then why are these companies still bothering with Horst, what are the benefits, or is it all just marketing? (Worked on me, I always wanted an M1 in their day, so when it came to new frame time, I looked for things with Horst links!)

 

[miuan]

I've not analyzed the Wilson axle path at all, but indeed this horst link configuration seems to only serve the purpose of
- isolating brake forces to some extent (a split pivot will also do the job)
- adjusting the CS/WB measurement (a stunning feature which most frames don't allow)
which is why I prefer the design over a single pivot Morewood I had before, although I'll miss the simplicity and durability of SPI. Good point is, the bike will feel similar to a SP = direct feel and much feedback.
As davep said, the axle path will be similar to a SP, i.e. rearward for the first part, then slowly turning into forward.
As pointed out many times before on this forum, the axle path of most bikes, including morewood or wilson, ale not different enough to provide a night/day difference in bump compliance once the shock is setup well for the certain design. On a forward path bike, you will require less HSC and/or a softer spring for high speed hits, but more HSR than on a rearward path bike (with the same spring). Consequently, you will need to run more LSC to compensate for the softer spring against low speed inputs.

 

[davet]

So then why are these companies still bothering with Horst, what are the benefits, or is it all just marketing? (Worked on me, I always wanted an M1 in their day, so when it came to new frame time, I looked for things with Horst links!)

The Horst design still reduces the effect of braking forces on the suspension

 

[davep]

Depending on the configuration of the other link's angles (between the seat stay and rocker primarily) the horst allows the designer to modify the brake induced squat. Think of the seat stay rotating around the rear wheel axle in the direction of the wheel turning (that is the direction of the braking force)..now look at the reaction of the rocker link with this force. Which way would it want to move? Extend the suspension? compress the suspension? Will it change/angles change depending on how compressed the suspension is? Thinking this through will give some idea of how the horst can be manipulated to change the way the frame reacts to braking.
The wilson for example would want to extend whan braking (anti-squat), if the brake force was the only force acting on it. You cannot get this effect on the US version of the same frame with the non-horst.

With the brake on the chainstay (true single pivot, non-horst 4 bar, etc) the chainstay will have the same rotational force as above, but because the chainstay is connected directly to the frame, the result will always be a net squat effect (rotation of that frame member in the direction of wheel rotation).


There are more forces at work like the traction force (essentially pulling the rear wheel backward and up as you brake) at the back tire contact point that certainly need to be accounted for....but you would need to know magnitudes and exact directions (instantaneous) of these forces to have an idea of the total system reaction...but generally they add more to the tendancy to squat.

In a bike like the wilson I would guess (hope) that they balanced the brake anti-squat force, and the traction squat force to make a frame that is pretty close to neutral or has a slight squat tendancy to ballance weight transfer/fork dive/etc (of course this will change slightly as the suspension compresses and the angles all change....).

 

[offtheedge]

very nice.