[$tinkle]

non-combat incidents are no small issue, nor is it playing loose with the numbers.

Things like vehicle accidents making late night supply runs in contested territory on bad roads were examples of how a non-combat injury occurs. To me, those still count.

then how about forward deployed training deaths? back up & then let's evaluate state-side training deaths? and further back still to non-job related deaths of activated military members? inactive? domestic violence?

obviously, there's a line of distinction that isn't being acknowledged.

and why no pity for the soldiers of fortune? they're fighting for the same cause, with the same objectives, right alongside the deployed military members.

 

[H8R]

then how about forward deployed training deaths? back up & then let's evaluate state-side training deaths? and further back still to non-job related deaths of activated military members? inactive? domestic violence?

obviously, there's a line of distinction that isn't being acknowledged.

and why no pity for the soldiers of fortune? they're fighting for the same cause, with the same objectives, right alongside the deployed military members.

Please re-write this post. I expect better from you. This is like...n8 stupid.

 

[$tinkle]

Please re-write this post. I expect better from you. This is like...n8 stupid.

kinda like how you conflate wahabbists with the saudi gov't? that was so spectacular i'm still considering putting that as an erratum to my pigskin-bound koran

 

[ohio]

then how about forward deployed training deaths? back up & then let's evaluate state-side training deaths? and further back still to non-job related deaths of activated military members? inactive? domestic violence?

obviously, there's a line of distinction that isn't being acknowledged.

and why no pity for the soldiers of fortune? they're fighting for the same cause, with the same objectives, right alongside the deployed military members.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but yes absolutely, let's account any deaths of individuals deployed in theater, whether US armed forces or contracted by the US DOD, OR US government civilian employees (diplomats, etc.). I would also include Afghanistan and Pakistan* [*I know we're "not there"] theaters as well.

 

[JohnE]

When talking about combat deaths, dont forget that the gubbment only counts deaths directly from combat...if you add in the deaths days, weeks or months later, the #s are a bit higher.

 

[H8R]

kinda like how you conflate wahabbists with the saudi gov't? that was so spectacular i'm still considering putting that as an erratum to my pigskin-bound koran

I never claim to post anything not stupid.

Just making a point - Iraq didn't attack us, a bunch of crazy-ass Saudis did.

 

[$tinkle]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but yes absolutely, let's account any deaths of individuals deployed in theater, whether US armed forces or contracted by the US DOD, OR US government civilian employees (diplomats, etc.). I would also include Afghanistan and Pakistan* [*I know we're "not there"] theaters as well.

what i'm on about is why the morbid fascination w/ an arbitrary number? meh, i do the same **** about other stuff on this topic.

as you were...

 

[N8 v2.0]

PBS is nicely outlining why Iraq targeted post 9/11 on Frontline

 

[$tinkle]

I never claim to post anything not stupid.

Just making a point - Iraq didn't attack us, a bunch of crazy-ass Saudis did.

don't you get just a teansie bit tired of being reminded the nazis didn't either?

as then, we are now fighting an ideology of hate.

 

[H8R]

don't you get just a teansie bit tired of being reminded the nazis didn't either?

Completely fvcking different.

 

[$tinkle]

Completely fvcking different.

yes.
on one hand you have a leader noted as a megalomaniacal anti-semite from humble beginnings, rising up in people a sense of identity and purpose through emotional & manipulative speeches about "the struggle", and hatched a violent plan of lofting his people above the pestilence of lesser people

and the other was led by hitler

 

[DaveW]

yes.
on one hand you have a leader noted as a megalomaniacal anti-semite from humble beginnings, rising up in people a sense of identity and purpose through emotional & manipulative speeches about "the struggle", and hatched a violent plan of lofting his people above the pestilence of lesser people

and the other was led by hitler

Err just to clarify.... Are you talking about Sadam or have you some how got Iraqi confused with Iran?

 

[MMike]

as then, we are now fighting an ideology of hate.

Uh...which the US only engaged after Pearl Harbor?

Really? You're going to stick with that comparision?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Uh...which the US only engaged after Pearl Harbor?

Really? You're going to stick with that comparision?

like Iraq, the Nazis never bombed us at Pearl Harbor

 

[ohio]

I'm going to assume stinkle is beating his usual drum about islamo-fascism and the GWOT here, NOT Iraq.

 

[$tinkle]

I'm going to assume stinkle is beating his usual drum about islamo-fascism and the GWOT here, NOT Iraq.

good to see someone besides n8 is paying attention.

 

[MMike]

The day Osama bin Laden attacked Pearl Harbor was arguably the worst day of Jimmy Carter's Presidency....

 

[Transcend]

like Iraq, the Nazis never bombed us at Pearl Harbor

Unlike Iraq, the Nazis were actively engaged in genocide and were storming across the countries of the western world's allies.

 

[$tinkle]

Unlike Iraq, the Nazis were actively engaged in genocide and were storming across the countries of the western world's allies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4875678.stm

 

[N8 v2.0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4875678.stm

oopsies!!!

i think our friend Transgend here is talking about the Sudan perhaps..?

 

[Transcend]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4875678.stm

Human rights groups say 180,000 civilians died in the campaign.

Number of Jews murdered in Holocaust: 5,709,329

Being a dictator and killing 180 000 people in your own country, while horrendous, does not compare to invading an entire continent and systematically gassing almost 6 million people.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Being a dictator and killing 180 000 people in your own country, while horrendous, does not compare to invading an entire continent and systematically gassing almost 6 million people.

Stalin..???

 

[$tinkle]

to be fair to saddam's street cred, he did invade kuwait.
and then there's that whole iran thingie w/ some mustard gas tossed toward both military & civilian iranians.

not that it matters

 

[Transcend]

Multiple engagements != a systematic genocide of 6 million people.

Your arguments are weak, at best.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Multiple engagements != a systematic genocide of 6 million people.

Your arguments are weak, at best.

Economy of scale:

Iraq: 4,000 US military dead after 5 years

WWII: 416,800 US military dead after 4 years

 

[jimmydean]

Economy of scale:

Iraq: 4,000 US military dead after 5 years

WWII: 416,800 US military dead after 4 years

WWII = Mission accomplished

Iraq = Oops

 

[N8 v2.0]

WWII = Mission accomplished

Iraq = Oops

WWII = US military presence in Germany, Japan and Italy 63 years later

Iraq = Same

 

[jimmydean]

WWII = US military presence in Germany, Japan and Italy 63 years later

Iraq = Same

Not the same, because people WANT to be stationed in Germany, Japan, and Italy.

 

[$tinkle]

WWII = Mission accomplished

Iraq = Oops

so what you're saying is bush missed his chance at a war-winning legacy by not nuking iraq?

awesome

 

[jimmydean]

so what you're saying is bush missed his chance at a war-winning legacy by not nuking iraq?

awesome

What I'm saying is WWII saved the world vs. Iraq saving the oil field.

Drink up, bitch!

<edit> Comparing WWII to Iraq is just plain funny, in a sad and dismal sort of way.

 

[Transcend]

Economy of scale:

Iraq: 4,000 US military dead after 5 years

WWII: 416,800 US military dead after 4 years

WW2: liberated an entire continent under siege through the concerted efforts of a dozen allied nations.

Iraq: invaded a sovereign nation as the aggressor with no real purpose or allies. in this case, the US is better compared to Nazi Germany than the USA of WW2.

 

[$tinkle]

Comparing WWII to Iraq is just plain funny, in a sad and dismal sort of way.

i'll have to openly admit, i have stopped thinking. i mean, why engage my brain if i don't have to? "what did we ever do to iraq" & other memes will always be met with the morally valid comparison to our actions against nazi germany (& their ilk).

for this comparison to be inappropriate, then we shouldn't be fighting al-Q in mesopotamia, but this is hard to square against the "valid" fight against al-Q in *-stan, as nato forces are deployed there.

the only downside i see of this illegal war is the fact that sidney blumenthal won't stand trial for DUI

 

[jimmydean]

As stated in the other thread:

Afghanistan is somewhat justified, but Iraq had little to do with anything. Saddam was a dick, there is no debate there. He invaded Kuwait and we kicked his ass, so he left.

Watching Frontline shows the rush to invade Iraq was done under false pretenses. The fact that we have spent ANY resources there is sickening.

 

[SlapheadMofo]

Not the same, because people WANT to be stationed in Germany, Japan, and Italy.

Probably not so much in '44 they didn't.

 

[jimmydean]

Probably not so much in '44 they didn't.

I was referring to the last 63 years. I wouldn't ever what to be stationed in Iraq, even 63 years from now.

 

[MMike]

I was referring to the last 63 years. I wouldn't ever what to be stationed in Iraq, even 63 years from now.

You'd be really old

 

[N8 v2.0]

From the Front

The Real Meaning of 4,000 Dead
By LT SEAN WALSH, US Army

The passing of the 4,000th service member in Iraq is a tragic milestone and a testament to the cost of this war, but for those of us who live and fight in Iraq, we measure that cost in smaller, but much more personal numbers. For me those numbers are 8, the number of friends and classmates killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and 3, the number of soldiers from my unit killed in this deployment. I'm 25, yet I've received more notifications for funerals than invitations to weddings.

The number 4,000 is too great to grasp even for us that are here in Iraq. When we soldiers read the newspaper, the latest AP casualty figures are glanced over with the same casual interest as a box score for a sport you don't follow. I am certain that I am not alone when I open up the Stars and Stripes, the military's daily paper, and immediately search for the section with the names of the fallen to see if they include anyone I know. While in a combat outpost in southwest Baghdad, it was in that distinctive bold Ariel print in a two-week-old copy of the Stars and Stripes that I read that my best friend had been killed in Afghanistan. No phone call from a mutual friend or a visit to his family. All that had come and gone by the time I had learned about his death. I sometimes wonder, if I hadn't picked up that paper, how much longer I would have gone by without knowing - perhaps another day, perhaps a week or longer until I could find the time and the means to check my e-mail to find my messages unanswered and a death notification from a West Point distro list in my inbox. The dead in Afghanistan don't seem to inspire the keeping of lists the same way that those in Iraq do, but even if they did it wouldn't matter; he could only be number 7 to me.

I'm not asking for pity, only understanding for the cost of this war. We did, after all, volunteer for the Army and that is the key distinction between this army and the army of the Vietnam War. But even as I ask for that understanding I'm almost certain that you won't be able to obtain it. Even Shakespeare, with his now overused notion of soldiers as a "band of brothers" fails to capture the bonds, the sense of responsibility to each other, among soldiers. In many ways, Iraq has become my home (by the time my deployment ends I will have spent more time here than anywhere else in the army) and the soldiers I share that home with have become my family. Between working, eating and sleeping within a few feet of the same soldiers every single day, I doubt I am away from them for more than two hours a day. I'm engaged to the love of my life, but it will take several years of marriage before I've spent as much time with her as I have with the men I serve with today.

For the vast majority of American's who don't have a loved one overseas, the only number they have to attempt to grasp the Iraq War is 4,000. I would ask that when you see that number, try to remember that it is made up of over 1 million smaller numbers; that every one of the 1 million service members who have fought in Iraq has his or her own personal numbers. Over 1 million 8's and 3's. When you are evaluating the price of the war, weighing potential rewards versus cost in blood and treasure, I would ask you to consider what is worth the lives of three of your loved ones? Or eight? Or more? It would be a tragedy for my 8 and 3 to have died without us being able to complete our mission, but it maybe even more tragic for 8 and 3 to become anything higher.

 

[JohnE]

The real tragedy is that we did not need, nor was there an international need, for us to go into Iraq. Two college boys sitting in a hole in North Dakota could have turned two keys, pressed two buttons (Then gone back to their Xbox), launching a nuke to shut Sadaam down if he did something stupid. Way more effective then needlessly sacrificing 4000+ young Americans and members of other countries militarys.
Yeah, we are down one tyrant, but at what cost?

 

[jimmydean]

I try not to talk about my personal numbers. Another awesome copy/paste, n8.

 

[Transcend]

The real tragedy is that we did not need, nor was there an international need, for us to go into Iraq. Two college boys sitting in a hole in North Dakota could have turned two keys, pressed two buttons (Then gone back to their Xbox), launching a nuke to shut Sadaam down if he did something stupid. Way more effective then needlessly sacrificing 4000+ young Americans and members of other countries militarys.
Yeah, we are down one tyrant, but at what cost?

Killing a few million Iraqi civilians. Yeah, you're a genius.