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650b coming sooner than we think?

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,741
473
If pay someone an excessive amount of money for a custom fabricated anything my substantial outlay of cash does not mean I'll have, or should have access to spare anything. DH bikes are bespoke items that often see revisions on 90% of all fabricated parts from one model to the next, your 450 does not. You want bikes to be cheap, light, dependable, innovative, and supported beyond obsolescence? Based on what whimsical formula?
Yes. I believe that is a completely reasonable expectation. It requires LOTS more up-front investment and time into long term testing and development, so incremental changes aren't necessary. The refinements of downhill bikes that has been seen in the last decade shouldn't have taken more than a couple generations to achieve in my opinion. Not 6 or 7. With longer generation lifecycles, you can afford to have more inventory of spares laying around, and over a 10 year cycle, it should save money because the R&D wouldn't be as constant and repetitive and the tooling costs would obviously decrease. Seems it would make things better for everyone if someone were to bite that initial bullet.

It's a major dis-service to the customer to not have parts available to keep their expensive toy running for years to come. Having to retire a bike that expensive because there's just no more parts available to keep it running 3 or 4 years later is just insane to me. These bikes are modular and user-serviceable for a reason, and it's absurd that their parent industry can't support that.

Boutique brands are a little different, but with them come some perks. My last bikes have been made by Frank The Welder. If I call him up and need a spare part that he doesn't have...well, he'll fvcking make me one. He's cool like that, and that's why I buy his bikes, among lots of other reasons.

I don't have an opinion on wheel size until I ride 650b a bit, but it's been mentioned before that the 26" wheel wasn't developed because it happened to be most optimized for trail riding. It just happened to be the wheel size already on the bikes that were converted into mtn bikes by some crazy hippies and became the standard. That doesn't mean it sucks, it just means that's why we started with 26.

I was told by some factory workers here in Taiwan, that the 700c road wheel actually owes its existence to oil drums. Since they were already round it was easy to cut the old drums into strips and with a little reworking, voila, a steel rim. Why 700cc? Because that's what size the drums were.

I have no idea if this is actually true, but it worth considering for a moment how our 'standards' are developed in the first place. Some evolve over time through testing and their own merits, others exist through pure happenstance.

Some of you planning for the wheelapocalypse need to take some deep breaths before you start building your bomb shelters.
I recently learned why train rails are spaced apart the distance that they are. It made me LOL. It's the comfortable distance between two horses asses. Or the centerline, but from the viewpoint of the person in the coach - the horses ass.

Roads and transport routes were burned in at the distance apart between two horses pulling carriages, and the rails were laid on these existing routes at that spacing, and the vehicles were then designed around that.

Today that dictates how aerospace companies and heavy industrial companies have to make certain structural components for rockets or things like the space shuttle that need to be transported by train. The designers are pounding their heads against the wall trying to size things to fit this seemingly arbitrary cargo width, dictated by the size of a horses ass 100 some odd years ago.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.


re testing:

The Scott team did extensive pre-season testing on wheelsize exactly as you describe.
Some riders were faster on 29", some on 650b.

Nobody even bothered testing 26" wheels because none of the riders were interested in riding them.

World Cup winner Nino Schurter chose 650b- It allowed him to keep the same contact points as his 26" and road bikes while having the advantages of a faster wheel that works better than 26" and is more fun to ride/manourverable than 29" wheels.
Bear in mind you're using a UCI XC team as an example...

XC, racing....

Not very comparable to what most of us ride.

Also, some DH and FR guys experiemented with the different wheel sizes as well. As far as we know, only one (logan B.) actually did well.

Also, I'll just jump on my supertouch if the terrain gets as lame as a UCI XC course.
 
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norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
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Warsaw :/
26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.


re testing:

The Scott team did extensive pre-season testing on wheelsize exactly as you describe.
Some riders were faster on 29", some on 650b.

Nobody even bothered testing 26" wheels because none of the riders were interested in riding them.

World Cup winner Nino Schurter chose 650b- It allowed him to keep the same contact points as his 26" and road bikes while having the advantages of a faster wheel that works better than 26" and is more fun to ride/manourverable than 29" wheels.
I think you missed the point. No one here claims 29ers and 650b is bad for xc. It is good and it works there. The point is everything that requires stiffness, agility and durability.



@Lee I'm yet to go but friends from a friendly company go every year and they are surprised how fast the country develops. Though it is a strange mix of high tech with the old ways (what's with everyone chewing red tabacco?). I've heard the riding scene is pretty minimal. Still it's a good place to catch an industry job if you are willing to do it. Especially if you learn the language. Best luck on the trip. Post riding photos when you find some trails.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,653
3,093
26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.

So were all those 500,000+ 26" bikes in 2011 sold over the internet? Just curious. ;)

re testing:

The Scott team did extensive pre-season testing on wheelsize exactly as you describe.
Some riders were faster on 29", some on 650b.
And why don't we see the numbers? The companies are normally not that shy to brag about how many % stiffer, lighter, faster, moar shimmed, moar jaw anything they want to push is. A lot of magazines run stories on test sessions but never show the results of the featured tests. Why?

Nobody even bothered testing 26" wheels because none of the riders were interested in riding them.
So how do they know that they are not faster than anything else? What you 'think' is or 'feels' the fastest is not always what actually is the fastest. I learned that quickly after I started to use a stop watch to time myself.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
1,605
Warsaw :/
26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.
So were all those 500,000+ 26" bikes in 2011 sold over the internet? Just curious. ;)
I think the problem is what I mentioned. A lot of the companies assume that if they are asked a lot or there is a lot talk about something than it must be a big group of people. Also some companies probably lost a bit of dough by not jumping on the last few new standards so now they want to jump on the first thing possible. Even if the idea isn't really that good.
 
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no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
it is not a natural evolution like 29 was initially.
29 was a scam. It should've been 650b from the start, but you don't have to buy a whole new rig for 650b like you do 29.

Scooters in Taiwan are awesome fun, full moto GP starts at every traffic light, especially if you've got a white face showing, and a hotted up scooter that wheelstands from the get go. and the cops drive around with their blue and red lights going so you can see them blocks away. That was in Taichung. Taipei just looked insane from the hotel window. I watched in awe for the first hour when I got there. 3 to 5 scooters abreast in a lane x 3 to 5 lanes with multiple speeds, nuts.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
Scooters in Taiwan are awesome fun, full moto GP starts at every traffic light, especially if you've got a white face showing, and a hotted up scooter that wheelstands from the get go. and the cops drive around with their blue and red lights going so you can see them blocks away. That was in Taichung. Taipei just looked insane from the hotel window. I watched in awe for the first hour when I got there. 3 to 5 scooters abreast in a lane x 3 to 5 lanes with multiple speeds, nuts.
While waiting for my cappuccino to brew:

scooters.jpg
 

NoUseForAName

Monkey
Mar 26, 2008
481
0
I'm curious how many of the folks thinking it's a scam/no different/conspiracy etc etc have actually ridden a 650b bike, or ridden a 29r for a period of time longer than a couple of hours?
 

berkshire_rider

Growler
Feb 5, 2003
2,552
10
The Blackstone Valley
I'm curious how many of the folks thinking it's a scam/no different/conspiracy etc etc have actually ridden a 650b bike, or ridden a 29r for a period of time longer than a couple of hours?

The same % that have tested a bike with 29" wheels against one with 26" wheels one after the other on the same course/terrain/trail and had actually PROVEN one was faster than the other? :rofl:
 

CrabJoe StretchPants

Reincarnated Crab Walking Head Spinning Bruce Dick
Nov 30, 2003
14,163
2,484
Groton, MA
I'm curious how many of the folks thinking it's a scam/no different/conspiracy etc etc have actually ridden a 650b bike, or ridden a 29r for a period of time longer than a couple of hours?
I've ridden a 29er enough to know it's not the right bike for me on the trails I ride. I've never had a chance to ride a 650b, but I don't really have an issue with them, either. As long as I can still get all my 26" parts I'm happy.

A lot of people seem to think this thread is about die-hard 26ers being "against" 650b/29ers...but I don't think that's the case. They're against 26" stuff becoming obsolete....at least I am.
 
Being that 650b are just rolling out, it is doubtful, unless you're in the Industry, that naysayers have had any substantive saddle time. I will say that having ridden 26 and 29rs. For marathon, trail, more flat/pedally enduro riding, 29rs with the right geometry are awesome. My 29r Tallboy with angleset is changing my whole opinion of short travel 29rs. Slackened out to a shade under 69. Corners well, holds speed, monster trucks stuff. If 650b combines the handling of 26 and the speed of 29rs, i am betting it will be a winner.
 

NoUseForAName

Monkey
Mar 26, 2008
481
0
You get 624 more with 650b, so i think that is the right choice.

Edit: The reason i asked, is that i HAVE had the chance to ride 650b and think it's the
second best thing ever. Will definitely replace my 26" AM rig as soon as feasible.
I just work at a bike shop, so it's not like i am changing the bike industry to make 26" stuff obsolete. 26" gear will be available for decades yet IMO, but when you go to buy a new bike the choice in 5 years will probably be 650b or 29r.
Not next year - though speaking to a head honzo at a bike co recently, he said they have a whole slew of 650b bikes coming to the mid travel (4.5-6") segment for 2014.

Obsolete is such a harsh word. Is it unfair that 24" wheels and tires and decent components are almost obsolete? No, but it's certainly true, and not too many folks are upset about that. Nonetheless, you can still get a rim and you can still get a few tires to keep you rolling if you insist on riding the throwback bike.
 
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iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,653
3,093
A lot of people seem to think this thread is about die-hard 26ers being "against" 650b/29ers...but I don't think that's the case. They're against 26" stuff becoming obsolete....at least I am.
Exactly! :thumb:

And don't worry, if anybody really can prove that 29ers or 27.5ers are faster than 26ers then the UCI will ban them immediately for racing anyways. ;) :D
They did so with e.g. skinsuits and all the awesome track/TT bikes, just to name two. :think:
 

mattmatt86

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2005
5,347
10
Bleedmore, Murderland
And don't worry, if anybody really can prove that 29ers or 27.5ers are faster than 26ers then the UCI will ban them immediately for racing anyways. ;) :D
They did so with e.g. skinsuits and all the awesome track/TT bikes, just to name two. :think:
Except that 650b and 29" wheels have already won multiple UCI races. Just not any DH races. (yet)
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,165
371
Roanoke, VA
Except that 650b and 29" wheels have already won multiple UCI races. Just not any DH races. (yet)
The last time 26" bikes were regularly raced in US XC races is 3 or 4 years ago. The proof is in, as they say, the pudding- and consumer sentiment and perception is the most important thing when it comes to determining what bike companies make.

26" wheels for XC are dead. If you show up at an xc race with 26" wheels you will actually get mocked, just like you will on just about any bike shop xc ride. This has been the case for at least 2 seasons now, if not longer in racing.

long-term longitudinal observation:

I have a pair of 26" carbon tubulars and 2 pair of carbon clincher 26" race wheels for the kids I sponsor.
They swap back and forth between 650b and 26" on their race bikes(.25" lower bb with 26"). so, 12.2" inches and 12" bb height The bikes handle awesome and go fast with both wheel sizes but the kids prefer the 650b stuff even though they are riding wheels that are considerably heavier and stiffer than the trick stuff we have laying around.

Even though the 26" wheels are the sickest **** imaginable they choose to run the 650b stuff 80% of the time.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
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Warsaw :/
The last time 26" bikes were regularly raced in US XC races is 3 or 4 years ago. The proof is in, as they say, the pudding- and consumer sentiment and perception is the most important thing when it comes to determining what bike companies make.

26" wheels for XC are dead. If you show up at an xc race with 26" wheels you will actually get mocked, just like you will on just about any bike shop xc ride. This has been the case for at least 2 seasons now, if not longer in racing.

long-term longitudinal observation:

I have a pair of 26" carbon tubulars and 2 pair of carbon clincher 26" race wheels for the kids I sponsor.
They swap back and forth between 650b and 26" on their race bikes(.25" lower bb with 26"). so, 12.2" inches and 12" bb height The bikes handle awesome and go fast with both wheel sizes but the kids prefer the 650b stuff even though they are riding wheels that are considerably heavier and stiffer than the trick stuff we have laying around.

Even though the 26" wheels are the sickest **** imaginable they choose to run the 650b stuff 80% of the time.
Why do you keep pushing the 29er in XC argument when we are all talking about gravity riding and no one argues 29ers are good for xc racing?
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
The last time 26" bikes were regularly raced in US XC races is 3 or 4 years ago. The proof is in, as they say, the pudding- and consumer sentiment and perception is the most important thing when it comes to determining what bike companies make.

26" wheels for XC are dead. If you show up at an xc race with 26" wheels you will actually get mocked, just like you will on just about any bike shop xc ride. This has been the case for at least 2 seasons now, if not longer in racing.
You hang out with some real morons.
 
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OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,652
1,127
NORCAL is the hizzle
Whatever, XC racers are easy targets for mocking regardless of wheel size.

DH racers give each other crap all the time too, is that really a strong argument for or against what they ride?

It all ties back to not giving a fvck.
 

csermonet

Monkey
Mar 5, 2010
942
127
I really don't know what to make of all this wheel size malarkey. I think I'm ok with 26 inch wheels. Or am I?
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,653
3,093
26" wheels for XC are dead. If you show up at an xc race with 26" wheels you will actually get mocked, just like you will on just about any bike shop xc ride. This has been the case for at least 2 seasons now, if not longer in racing.
Come on, most XC racers would rather race their road or CX bike in a XC race if the 'courses wouldn't be so crazy technical'. ;)
If I had a bike company I would sponsor the fastest XC guy to race on 26". If he spanks everyone the sheep would follow and buy 26" again. Think this sounds weird? Is exactly what Speci did for their 29er marketing.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,069
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Come on, most XC racers would rather race their road or CX bike in a XC race if the 'courses wouldn't be so crazy technical'. ;)
If I had a bike company I would sponsor the fastest XC guy to race on 26". If he spanks everyone the sheep would follow and buy 26" again. Think this sounds weird? Is exactly what Speci did for their 29er marketing.
did you see the courses on this year's world cup? not the limpdicks, but the actual, you know, highest level competition of mountain bikers? many of the courses were not gravel paths with a rock, but actual trails with difficult sections. 29ers and 650b still won.

Second, specialized was one of the last adopters of 29" wheels and they'll be last on the line for 650b. In multiple interviews they've dismissed 650b saying that they'll "wait it out". I don't think they jumped on 29ers until they were already a market force.

C, if there's one thing mickey knows, it's XC.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
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But this topic isn't about XC.

Also have you seen some of the XCE couses? The first one was dope but the ones after it? Come on.
 

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,209
584
Durham, NC
29ers and 650b still won.
Bollocks. If we are talking about WC xc racing (where I agree the courses are way more challenging than US xc racing) then you will see a mix of wheel sizes for every podium. Schurter just started riding a 650 bike this year to podium finishes and was on 26 before that. And Absalon, Hermida, etc. But whatever, what xc racers (even at the highest level) are riding means little to me, but the fact is that all wheel sizes are represented and there isn't one dominant size.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
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The 802
So are we arguing that what's good for XC racer bois isn't necessarily what might be good for the common man who rides his bike up and down hills in the woods for fun? . . . Because DHers are pretty notorious for arguing that what is on elite level DH racer bois' bikes is exactly what they should have to ride their bikes (slowly) down hills in the woods for fun. DH racing drives DH bike design, are you surprised XC racing might do the same? And what if the 650b guys start using and winning on 650b bikes? It may not prove that they are better, but it sure will prove that they don't suck.

*Sorta' tongue-in-cheek, sorta' not.

But seriously, some of you are acting like the 26" wheel is going to be wiped off the map tomorrow.
Relax, I bet most of you haven't even see a 650b wheel yet, let alone put one on a bike and ridden it.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
Just remember that NONE of this $hit matters. No wheel size is going to make anyone faster, and it is winter time on Ridemonkey. Which for some reason makes everyone here try to be the first to the top of Bull$hit Mountain.
Remember a bunch of years ago when Santa Cruz announced they were putting a carbonz link on the V10 and people tripped over themselves to best proclaim what catastrophic failure awaited those who believed the hype. . . Yeah, this is like that again.

Are you not entertained?
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
1,605
Warsaw :/
So are we arguing that what's good for XC racer bois isn't necessarily what might be good for the common man who rides his bike up and down hills in the woods for fun? . . . Because DHers are pretty notorious for arguing that what is on elite level DH racer bois' bikes is exactly what they should have to ride their bikes (slowly) down hills in the woods for fun. DH racing drives DH bike design, are you surprised XC racing might do the same? And what if the 650b guys start using and winning on 650b bikes? It may not prove that they are better, but it sure will prove that they don't suck.

*Sorta' tongue-in-cheek, sorta' not.

But seriously, some of you are acting like the 26" wheel is going to be wiped off the map tomorrow.
Relax, I bet most of you haven't even see a 650b wheel yet, let alone put one on a bike and ridden it.
I hate it because it's different
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
So are we arguing that what's good for XC racer bois isn't necessarily what might be good for the common man who rides his bike up and down hills in the woods for fun? . . . Because DHers are pretty notorious for arguing that what is on elite level DH racer bois' bikes is exactly what they should have to ride their bikes (slowly) down hills in the woods for fun. DH racing drives DH bike design, are you surprised XC racing might do the same? And what if the 650b guys start using and winning on 650b bikes? It may not prove that they are better, but it sure will prove that they don't suck.

*Sorta' tongue-in-cheek, sorta' not.

But seriously, some of you are acting like the 26" wheel is going to be wiped off the map tomorrow.
Relax, I bet most of you haven't even see a 650b wheel yet, let alone put one on a bike and ridden it.



I don't know about you but I lose a lot of sleep making this one of my goals in life






My goal is the be the guy on the bike, but with a cow catcher off the front of a train mounted on my handlebars.