[Westy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071206/ap_on_re_us/mall_shooting_48

OMAHA, Neb. - A man opened fire with a rifle at a busy department store Wednesday, killing eight people before taking his own life in an attack that made holiday shoppers run screaming through a mall and barricade themselves in dressing rooms. Five more people were wounded, two critically.

We obviously need to make guns easier to own so more people can defend themselves and shoot back. That or we can just put metal detectors everywhere and have security guards armed with tazers.

 

[1453]

aren't most malls off limits to CCW holders?

 

[Dartman]

Suicide shooters like that should put the first round in their own head. Then if they still feel like shooting others, more power to 'em.

 

[valve bouncer]

I think this terrible tragedy highlights the critical shortage of fully trained accredited mall ninjas.

 

[Westy]

aren't most malls off limits to CCW holders?

Exactly my point. It needs to be easier for god fearing responsible people to carry. Maybe stores can start giving discounts if you are packing heat.

 

[1453]

Exactly my point. It needs to be easier for god fearing responsible people to carry. Maybe stores can start giving discounts if you are packing heat.

sorry, being on Ridemonkey I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not

cyclists aren't known to be the most 2nd-friendly crowd. if anything this thing would be used as evidence for the gun-ban crowd.

of course by security-with-tazer you meant this I'm sure...
http://break.com/index/driver-gets-tazed-for-being-slow1.html

disclaimer: I recognize this as a tremendous tragedy for those who died and their families and my sympathy goes toward them

 

[dan-o]

I blame cheap gasoline.
If new suburbs weren't eliminating their native habitat, these hunters wouldn't be forced into urban areas.

 

[MMike]

There was no-one there to get the Weaver stance all up in dat sh!t....

More guns, yo......

 

[LordOpie]

How about Mr. Farter who got pissed off that people laughed as his expelling gas... went and got his assault rifle. WTF?

 

[MMike]

I think this terrible tragedy highlights the critical shortage of fully trained accredited mall ninjas.

Do mall ninjas wear banana Republic and American Eagle ninja outfits?

 

[Dartman]

Do mall ninjas wear banana Republic and American Eagle ninja outfits?

Any basic black T-shirt will do...

 

[Serial Midget]

I think this terrible tragedy highlights the critical shortage of fully trained accredited mall ninjas.

Our Mall Ninjas ride Segways with cup holders... they may be packing on the Starbuck pounds but - they are silent & swift.

 

[X3pilot]

How about Mr. Farter who got pissed off that people laughed as his expelling gas... went and got his assault rifle. WTF?

<<<<<<<<That's him! Now THAT was a reason to shoot at people. Don't be laffing at my vapors!

 

[N8 v2.0]

i'm waiting for hillary clinton to tell me what i should think...

 

[Westy]

i'm waiting for hillary clinton to tell me what i should think...

I thought you let Rush Limbaugh do that for you?

 

[ire]

I heard on the news he left a suicide note, anyone know why he did it? Didn't get the good deal on Black Friday?

 

[X3pilot]

"wanted to be famous"

Let's see... 19, living with parents' neighbors, fired from Mcdonalds and his Gf dumped him.


Loser?

 

[moff_quigley]

I used to hang out at that mall when I was a kid. Surprised it's still standing/open for business.

Yeah the guy was a loser.

 

[MikeD]

The mall was posted "no guns." How in the world could this have happened?

It's almost like a psychotic criminal might think about breaking the law.

 

[valve bouncer]

The mall was posted "no guns." How in the world could this have happened?

It's almost like a psychotic criminal might think about breaking the law.

Good choice obviously, otherwise one of those brave legal gun carrying folks would have been able to step forward and end his rampage before it started.

 

[stevew]

Good choice obviously, otherwise one of those brave legal gun carrying folks would have been able to step forward and end his rampage before it started.

problem solver?

 

[OrthoPT]

problem solver?

nice. needs a folding stock or a pistol grip.

 

[$tinkle]

9th casualty: http://www.ketv.com/news/14793800/detail.html

this could have all been avoided if there had been FJ drivers shopping that day.

 

[MikeD]

Good choice obviously, otherwise one of those brave legal gun carrying folks would have been able to step forward and end his rampage before it started.

http://p207.ezboard.com/fccwnebraskafrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=394.topic&start=1&stop=20

Post of 12/6 at 3:15...this guy seems to be claiming that he's an employee at the mall, licensed to carry a concealed firearm in Nebraska but prevented from doing so (by mall/employer policy or Omaha law I don't know...seems to be that cities in Nebraska can restrict carry beyond state-imposed rules). And he claims he was well within shooting range of the attacker.

If I'd have been there, well...I'd have first gotten my family to the safest place I could (which might involve just shooting the guy right out if circumstances dictated, but only in pursuit of getting my family and I to safety), ensured the authorities were alerted (hopefully by the wife or someone else as I moved to the next step) and then gone back to see what good I could do with my evil, evil handgun. (Of course, it was over in less than a minute, so perhaps nothing could have been done by then, and certainly the cops couldn't get there to take care of things in time.)

Or at least that's ideally what I'd have liked to do. Reality has a way of being a lot less neat than Internet musings.

 

[$tinkle]

don't forget: this mall was a gun-free zone

...just like VA tech

 

[$tinkle]

Post of 12/6 at 3:15...this guy seems to be claiming that he's an employee at the mall, licensed to carry a concealed firearm in Nebraska but prevented from doing so

not sure if it's the account of the same guy, but according to a guest blogger @ http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com/ :

I do not have a Concealed Handgun Permit. I have completed the training class, but I keep putting off applying for the permit because I think it is useless. In the places I would need a gun most, I am not allowed to have it. I will not be a person living in fear and not go to Van Maur because they don’t allow guns.

oh, signs prohibiting guns @ westwood mall have been taken down as well.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

...Or at least that's ideally what I'd have liked to do. Reality has a way of being a lot less neat than Internet musings.[/QUOTE] Yeah dat. Hope I never get into that kind of circumstance, but if I do I hope to be able to act with courage and grace...

 

[valve bouncer]

Seems to me that the idea of using armed citizens as one level of defense against these kinds of massacres is about as useful, sensible or effective as using batallions of old men driving slowly in the left lane to stop speeding

 

[MikeD]

It's more sensible than disarming citizens with the same laws that criminals break...

 

[valve bouncer]

Or indeed trying the radical approach of making guns much harder to get for everyone. I mean that could never work, could it? You blokes would much rather have massacres than common sense.

 

[MikeD]

You can talk about making guns hard to get, but you can't do it. You can only make it harder for non-criminals to get guns.

 

[MMike]

As long as everyone uses the Weaver stance, what could go wrong?

Friggin panty waists......

 

[MikeD]

Weaver is like so 80s.

 

[valve bouncer]

You can talk about making guns hard to get, but you can't do it. You can only make it harder for non-criminals to get guns.

That's the main problem for you guys now. The availability has reached a critical mass and cannot be reined in easily. What really needs to happen is to change the whole culture of guns. Now not to be critical of Manimal who I think is a great bloke, but he has posted pictures here of his young bloke with a huge gun that made my stomach turn. If he'd posted a similar pic with young Nate with a ciggie in his mouth there'd be outrage. Seems it's acceptable that young people be exposed to guns and there's a general acceptance of guns as normal. I'd propose a turn towrds a similar mindset as that we now have towards smoking- it's legal but becoming more and more socially unacceptable. Smoking rates are dropping in every country as it becomes more unacceptable, is it pie in the sky to expect something similar can happen with guns?

 

[MikeD]

People don't use cigarettes to commit crimes of violence, and cigarettes can't be used to defend against crimes of violence, so I really don't see the comparison.

 

[MMike]

Weaver is like so 80s.

Hey...they got the job done

 

[MikeD]

I think they're getting the job done just under the bottom edge of that picture.

 

[MikeD]

That's the main problem for you guys now. The availability has reached a critical mass and cannot be reined in easily. What really needs to happen is to change the whole culture of guns. Now not to be critical of Manimal who I think is a great bloke, but he has posted pictures here of his young bloke with a huge gun that made my stomach turn. If he'd posted a similar pic with young Nate with a ciggie in his mouth there'd be outrage. Seems it's acceptable that young people be exposed to guns and there's a general acceptance of guns as normal. I'd propose a turn towrds a similar mindset as that we now have towards smoking- it's legal but becoming more and more socially unacceptable. Smoking rates are dropping in every country as it becomes more unacceptable, is it pie in the sky to expect something similar can happen with guns?

Also, I don't think mass murder has ever been socially acceptable. Equating a societal acceptance of smoking is different than societal acceptance of guns. Smoking causes cancer to the smoker and others. (still, people should be able to smoke if they want...hell, I think weed should probably be legal.) But plenty of people are around guns their whole lives and never commit a crime. (I don't come from a gun-owning background myself, but as I've spent my entire adult life with weapons as a professional requirement, I guess I fit the bill, too.) It's not guns that make people criminals.

And since criminals will get guns and use them, I don't see where we're headed in your scenario. If you make "assault" weapons impossible to get (theoretically), you still have shotguns and sporting rifles with which you can kill just as many people. Maybe you kill 6 instead of 8 within your 15 seconds of psycho fame if you can somehow limit sporting rifles to, say 3 shots per magazine, but is that any less a tragedy? Assume a 5-minute police response at best, and think how many people a murderer with *any* gun, not just a scary-looking black one, can kill. It's about the murderer, not the inanimate object he's holding. And now there's no one to stop him, unless one of the good guys/victims has a gun or there's a miracle of luck and courage. (And even in sickening gun-crazy America, where somehow all foreigners assume everyone's packing a pistol, I can think of only one example where a mass murderer has been even affected by a weapon-carrying would-be victim...the off-duty officer in Utah.)

Are people undeterred by laws against murder and robbery going to be deterred by laws against guns? No. And if you change the "gun culture" to eliminate non-criminals who are inclined to own or use firearms, you've done nothing to curb crime, and in fact empowered armed criminals vis-a-vis a disarmed victim populace.

The one salient point about gun control is that allowing gun ownership (which is a right not granted by the US Constitution, but rather protected by it...it's assumed to exist a priori as a natural right as the Bill of Rights is worded) does indeed allow a larger pool of guns available for illegal use. Through theft, fraudulent purchase, or (rarely) legal purchase, criminals obtain guns for use in crime. But preventing citizens from buying or carrying guns will not reduce the amount of guns in circulation available to criminals by any significant number...plus, the US has a large and open border with Mexico and Canada, which would allow an illicit arms trade to flourish if criminal demand remained in the theoretical absence of guns (which wouldn't happen anyhow).

I get your emotion...someone did something bad with a gun, and people are largely idiots...let's not arm them. But there's nothing behind that emotion that stands the test of reason or right, to my mind.

Should we vastly increase the penalties for the use of a gun in a crime? Hell yes. Throw them away for life. Execute them. No second chances. Do not tolerate thuggery as a society. But then, of course, the same people who want guns banned will cry at the excessive brutality of our justice system.

Anyhow, the number of states issuing concealed carry permits has been rising, yet none of the dire predictions about our city streets turning into Dodge City have come to pass. Your average citizen doesn't walk down the streets trying to kill other people. Giving him a gun doesn't change that. And if he does really want to kill other people, passing a law against him having a gun won't stop him from getting one. Murder's illegal, too.

 

[valve bouncer]

Ultimately you have to ask yourself this basic question; Why does the US have so many more gun murders per capita than other comparable nations? The answer is obviously more complex than "lots of guns" but you can't dismiss that fact from the equation.
Australia averages 1 gun related homicide a week. 21 million people, about the population of Texas. 1 a week.

 

[JohnE]

Hey...they got the job done

And they never pulled their guns. At least their firearms!