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A debunking of Cardinal Schönborn's views on evolution

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,520
7,854
NB: i did not write this. it was written just a few hours ago by one of my friends and former classmates, who is now a PhD candidate at Berkeley in, guess what, evolutionary biology. it is a long read, yes, but basically covers every point that has been brought up in the evolution/ID debate over the past weeks in a manner more thorough than us non-specialist plebes can hope to achieve.

on to the text, which again i did _not_ write (but which i'm not quoting for ease of reading -- italic sucks). emphasis added by me, Toshi.

>>>>>>>>>>

Hi everybody,

Sadly, Cardinal Schönborn does not really understand evolutionary theory. He made this clear in his NY Times op-ed a earlier this year, where he argued that biologists claim evolution was a "random and unguided process". This is a definition of evolution you will not find in any textbook, except those written by Protestant and Islamic fundamentalists who advocate creationism, intelligent design, or Biblical/Quranic literalism. First, Schönborn belies a fundamental misunderstanding of what the word "random" means in science. "Random" does not mean that things happen with absolutely no cause, nor does it mean that the range of variation that can occur in organisms, or between organisms, is limitless (such as a lizard suddenly laying an egg that hatches into a bird). Both these ideas are ridiculous, as Schönborn, advocates of creationism/ID, and all biologists recognize. Mutations that occur in living things are constrained by a variety of genetic and developmental processes. What random means in biology is that it is impossible to predict in advance exactly which individuals, or how many, in a population will have mutations, or which mutations out of a potential number of mutations will occur. "Random" in this sense is analogous to "stochastic". This is analogous to house fires. You can't actually predict which houses will burn down in advance, but afterwards you can often figure out what was responsible in each case (smoking in bed, angry ex-spouse, the KKK, etc.). Second, evolution is not unguided. It is guided by natural selection. All kinds of mutations might occur, but only some are actually beneficial to the organisms that carry them, and those organisms which are unfit will die or otherwise fail to pass on genes to the next generation.

Schönborn doesn't have an informed view of how evolutionary biology has changed since Darwin. Darwin happened to be a brilliant man who is without parallel in the history of his field, but he's also neither the last word nor the unassailable authority on the subject of evolution. (He did believe in God; he also believed that God created the first life but then sat back and let natural selection do most of the work.) Darwin's contributions were to popularize the idea that life had evolved over eons (this idea predated Darwin by over a century), and to postulate a new mechanism that could explain this: natural selection. Since then there has been 150 years of research that has both validated Darwin's worldview and expanded the ability of evolutionary biology to explain what we see in the world today. He dismisses geneticists like Hugo de Vries and Thomas Hunt Morgan, who rediscovered Mendel's work at the beginning of the twentieth century and founded modern genetics; Theodosius Dobzhansky, George Gaylord Simpson, Sewall Wright, Ronald Fisher, and Ernst Mayr, who combined what was known about genetics, populations, species, and paleontology to form the Modern Synthesis of evolutionary biology in the 1930's and 1940's; paleontologists Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge who demonstrated that Mayr's theories from the Modern Synthesis match what is seen in the fossil record; Motoo Kimura who emphasized that not only natural selection but also genetic drift is responsible for evolution; and great theorists like William Hamilton and Richard Dawkins who applied Darwinism to understand social behavior in non-human animals and the evolutionary advantages of sexual reproduction. This is the "neo-Darwinism" that Schönborn dismisses. Actually, it's a validation of and a significant improvement over Darwin's theory. Real evolutionary biology didn't begin and end with Darwin. Schönborn is obviously a very intelligent man, and I think he would not have said this if he knew more about evolutionary biology.

He also makes the mistake of conflating the origin of life with evolution. (ed/Toshi's comment: this is the same point i've been trying to make to Heath) We don't really understand the origin of life. We have a lot of interesting hypotheses, and we have a lot of hypotheses that have been discarded as we learn more about the early Earth. Ultimately what will prevent us from having a good theory of the origin of life is that it happened 3.5 billion years ago, and there's not a whole lot of evidence left behind in the rocks to help us distinguish between these hypotheses. This lack of evidence doesn't automatically mean that God created life (although that is what Darwin believed). Regardless, evolutionary biology is not about the origin of life. It's about how life has changed over time since it came into being.

Finally, Schönborn's logic is flawed. He implies that if Darwin was unable to explain something, it must be due to God. There's a lot that Darwin was unable to explain. The past 150 years of evolutionary biology, as we have seen, has expanded Darwin's ideas and added new ideas to them to explain many things Darwin didn't understand. We now have a truly integrative body of evolutionary theory that goes well beyond Darwin's theory, but Schönborn doesn't seem to be aware of this and dismisses it all as irrelevant. Actually, there are still things that present evolutionary theory can't explain very well. But it's a logical fallacy to draw a line in the sand in the year 2005 and say, if science can't explain it now, it must be due to God. If you had drawn the line in the sand in 1900 and said the same thing, you would have concluded that heredity was due to God. Schönborn doesn't want to acknowledge the possibility that yet-unconceived scientific theories might come along to explain the "gaps" in "Darwin's theory". He also makes another logical flaw in assuming that if some kind of intelligence is involved, it must be the Judeo-Christian God. He's entitled to his opinion, but if we're going to be scientific about it, you can't just a priori dismiss the possibility that the "gaps" are due to super-intelligent space aliens (as argued by the Raëlians), undetectable and invisible terrestrial beings, a suite of creators (one for plants, one for animals, one for bacteria), or deities from other religions (Allah, Hindu deities, Norse deities, the Native American tricksters Raven or Coyote, Izanagi-no-mikoto and Izanami-no-mikoto who created the Japanese archipelago and gave birth to the Japanese people). Although you may be tempted to throw out the last of these hypotheses because it is racist, science doesn't provide you with any grounds to distinguish between any of them.

I'm not a theologian, but since Schönborn isn't an evolutionary biologist, I will offer the opinion that ID is also bad theology. Schönborn isn't very clear whether he thinks God intervened multiple times in the history of life, but most Protestant ID advocates in the US do. This implies that God isn't actually powerful enough to get things right the first time, and has to keep intervening. If you find this idea unsatisfying, consider the alternative: God intervenes a lot to make all kinds of living things, but then mysteriously decides not to intervene to stop war, genocide, and human suffering. ID advocates like to use the bacterial flagellum as an example of something which couldn't possibly have evolved. They say it has 50 working parts and the removal of any part causes it to not function, but they've never tested this hypothesis. Those who have tested this hypothesis found that up to 20 parts can be removed and it still works as a flagellum, but beyond that it goes back to having a metabolic function which presumably predated the evolution of a flagellum. Perhaps we can conclude that God cares more about bacteria being able to move around than about the Jews and gays who were killed in the Holocaust. Whereas many fundamentalist Protestants and Muslims undisputably believe this, for our sakes I sincerely hope that Schönborn does not.

For these reasons there are no peer-reviewed scientific papers advocating intelligent design, and the only "scientists" who advocate it are those who are specialists in fields other than biology and dabble in ID as a result of their religious views.

David
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,520
7,854
ThePriceSeliger said:
I didn't read any of that. It's to long. Clifnotes?
that's ok, just go to church and be a good boy instead :nuts:

:D

hint: read the bold sections.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Toshi said:
Perhaps we can conclude that God cares more about bacteria being able to move around than about the Jews and gays who were killed in the Holocaust.
Except for the faggot bacteria. God created antibiotics to deal with those unholy specs of his glorious creation.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,520
7,854
Changleen said:
Good article
it's not even an article, it's from an email he whipped out to the group of a dozen or so college buddies (nerds all, including me -- discussion later today turned to alternative definitions of entropy) in response to recent discussion of the issue.

here's the article by the cardinal that sparked his ire:

Finding Design in Nature
By CHRISTOPH SCHöNBORN (NYT) 964 words
Published: July 7, 2005

EVER since 1996, when Pope John Paul II said that evolution (a term he
did not define) was ''more than just a hypothesis,'' defenders of
neo-Darwinian dogma have often invoked the supposed acceptance -- or at
least acquiescence -- of the Roman Catholic Church when they defend
their theory as somehow compatible with Christian faith.

But this is not true. The Catholic Church, while leaving to science many
details about the history of life on earth, proclaims that by the light
of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose
and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.

Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution
in the neo-Darwinian sense -- an unguided, unplanned process of random
variation and natural selection -- is not. Any system of thought that
denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in
biology is ideology, not science.


Consider the real teaching of our beloved John Paul. While his rather
vague and unimportant 1996 letter about evolution is always and
everywhere cited, we see no one discussing these comments from a 1985
general audience that represents his robust teaching on nature:

''All the observations concerning the development of life lead to a
similar conclusion. The evolution of living beings, of which science
seeks to determine the stages and to discern the mechanism, presents an
internal finality which arouses admiration. This finality which directs
beings in a direction for which they are not responsible or in charge,
obliges one to suppose a Mind which is its inventor, its creator.''

He went on: ''To all these indications of the existence of God the
Creator, some oppose the power of chance or of the proper mechanisms of
matter. To speak of chance for a universe which presents such a complex
organization in its elements and such marvelous finality in its life
would be equivalent to giving up the search for an explanation of the
world as it appears to us. In fact, this would be equivalent to
admitting effects without a cause. It would be to abdicate human
intelligence, which would thus refuse to think and to seek a solution
for its problems.''

Note that in this quotation the word ''finality'' is a philosophical
term synonymous with final cause, purpose or design. In comments at
another general audience a year later, John Paul concludes, ''It is
clear that the truth of faith about creation is radically opposed to the
theories of materialistic philosophy. These view the cosmos as the
result of an evolution of matter reducible to pure chance and
necessity.''

Naturally, the authoritative Catechism of the Catholic Church agrees:
''Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to
the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known
with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason.'' It
adds: ''We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom.
It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or
chance.''

In an unfortunate new twist on this old controversy, neo-Darwinists
recently have sought to portray our new pope, Benedict XVI, as a
satisfied evolutionist. They have quoted a sentence about common
ancestry from a 2004 document of the International Theological
Commission, pointed out that Benedict was at the time head of the
commission, and concluded that the Catholic Church has no problem with
the notion of ''evolution'' as used by mainstream biologists -- that is,
synonymous with neo-Darwinism.

The commission's document, however, reaffirms the perennial teaching of
the Catholic Church about the reality of design in nature. Commenting on
the widespread abuse of John Paul's 1996 letter on evolution, the
commission cautions that ''the letter cannot be read as a blanket
approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a
neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any
truly causal role in the development of life in the universe.''

Furthermore, according to the commission, ''An unguided evolutionary
process -- one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence --
simply cannot exist.''

Indeed, in the homily at his installation just a few weeks ago, Benedict
proclaimed: ''We are not some casual and meaningless product of
evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is
willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary.''

Throughout history the church has defended the truths of faith given by
Jesus Christ. But in the modern era, the Catholic Church is in the odd
position of standing in firm defense of reason as well. In the 19th
century, the First Vatican Council taught a world newly enthralled by
the ''death of God'' that by the use of reason alone mankind could come
to know the reality of the Uncaused Cause, the First Mover, the God of
the philosophers.

Now at the beginning of the 21st century, faced with scientific claims
like neo-Darwinism and the multiverse hypothesis in cosmology invented
to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in
modern science, the Catholic Church will again defend human reason by
proclaiming that the immanent design evident in nature is real.
Scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as
the result of ''chance and necessity'' are not scientific at all, but,
as John Paul put it, an abdication of human intelligence.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
defenders of
neo-Darwinian dogma have often invoked the supposed acceptance -- or at
least acquiescence -- of the Roman Catholic Church when they defend
their theory as somehow compatible with Christian faith.


Out of a very confused article, I don't think the above quote reflects the reality of the situation either. What those neo-Darwinist types are pointing out is that even a bat**** crazy institution like the Catholic Church isn't stupid enough (or wasn't stupid enough, the Nazi Pope may be a step backward) to ignore the scientific evidence. I'd guess that most of them don't really care too much if it's compatible with the Christian faith.
 

kinghami3

Future Turbo Monkey
Jun 1, 2004
2,239
0
Ballard 4 life.
Great article. As a Christian, I believe that God has everything to do with this topic. At the same time I think Creationism is a bunch of conservative BS created for people to stupid to understand biology. There is a beautiful design in the workings of creation, a sort of biological clockwork that God set in motion (in the non-Deistic sense). I am a fan of Darwin in that he attributes natural selection to God's design.
 

jaydee

Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
794
0
Victoria BC
Great piece of writing on your friend's part, Toshi. I'd be interested in reading Heath's reply to it. He's been pretty busy taking on all comers in another thread here lately.

Kinghami3, I like your comment too. Personally I take a "don't know and don't really care" position on the existence of a god. The idea of a godless universe can peacefully coexist with the idea of one with a god presiding, and it would look the same from inside the box. It's a coin toss and who knows how it lands. And does it matter anyway?
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Toshi, your friend presents some interesting information. I wonder why more scientific (doctors, biologists, lab workers) people of faith don't talk about how Darwin was simply explaining how organisms change and not trying to void God.

As your friend pointed out the real battle is about the origin of life. If anyone can prove how that occured they could rule the world. It's the battle for power that drives this debate me thinks.

Thank you for the information.
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Interesting note by David on how the evolutionary biology has been evolving since Darwin.

Cardinal Schönborn may not "really understand" the details of each of the theorists' theses mentioned in David's note.

But such notion that the scientific definition of "random" is analogous to "stochastic" in the sense that it is determined by all factors known and unknown (to human / scientists of a given age) does not conflict with Cardinal's basic assertion. I think Cardinal concurs with David that "evolution is not unguided. It is guided by natural selection."

David assumes that Cardinal is making "the mistake of conflating the origin of life with evolution". But Cardinal essentially agrees with David that "we don't really understand the origin of life" and that "evolutionary biology is not about the origin of life. It's about how life has changed over time since it came into being". The origin of life, or the origin of any material, organic and inorganic, for that matter, is a theological question and approachable only through theological thinking and not by experimental science.

David's comment like "Perhaps we can conclude that God cares more about bacteria being able to move around than about the Jews and gays who were killed in the Holocaust." only divulges the limited anthropomorphic image of god David has. . . and he really has a silly shallow unintelligent image of god. . . not too attractive even to the non-scientific pedestrian mind.

"Debunking" a caricature shadow of what is infinitely vast and magnificent enough to encompass the whole of universe, "the box" as explained by jaydee, does not give a convincing argument against the existence of a Natural Order, a systematic order in Nature, or of the ultimate Beauty, Truth and Goodness.

In the end, I agree with jaydee:
"The idea of a godless universe can peacefully coexist with the idea of one with a god presiding, and it would look the same from inside the box. It's a coin toss and who knows how it lands. And does it matter anyway? jaydee"

(edited addition) Well, jaydee, I think it does matter after all. It changes how I see and appreciate the box even when I can only "guess about" what the whole box is like from my limited view point. Faith in the presiding god gives me added pleasure to be in the box as a part of the box. It gives me hope that I may sometime resonate perfectly to the purest tunes the box may be filled with.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
enkidu said:
I think Cardinal concurs with David that "evolution is not unguided. It is guided by natural selection."

David assumes that Cardinal is making "the mistake of conflating the origin of life with evolution". But Cardinal essentially agrees with David that "we don't really understand the origin of life" and that "evolutionary biology is not about the origin of life.
And natural selection isn't natural if God keeps mucking with it for giggles. There's a reason it isn't called supernatural selection.

And the Cardinal sure doesn't agree that "we don't understand the origin of life. He's 100% sure it is God.

Here is the piece from the cleric that Toshi bolded further down the page. Read it again:

Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense -- an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection -- is not. Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.

Notice (which Toshi also pointed out) a gross misunderstanding of neo-Darwinian theory there. Mutations may well be random, but that doesn't mean the process of selection is. I honestly don't understand why people refuse to see this point.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
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In a handbasket
Originally posted by enkidu
The origin of life, or the origin of any material, organic and inorganic, for that matter, is a theological question and approachable only through theological thinking and not by experimental science.
I'm sorry enkidu, but you are going to have to back this statement up. We did not come up with the big bang theory through theological thinking. Abiogenetic studies do not come about through theological thinking.

Science is the best tool we have for investigating the natural world, period. Some things may be more difficult to study, but your alternative would be to pray for the answer? Besides, what happens when someone else prays for the answer and gets a completely different answer from yours? Then what?
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Silver said:
And natural selection isn't natural if God keeps mucking with it for giggles.
The course of natural selection IS the expression of the internal law nature has. The anthropomorphic god in fond of "mucking for giggles" is a poor artificial image of god held by some mortals.

Silver said:
And the Cardinal sure doesn't agree that "we don't understand the origin of life. He's 100% sure it is God.
OK, my lack of precision in terms. Cardinal writes, "The Catholic Church, while leaving to science many details about the history of life on earth, proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things." In other words, he is stating that (experimental) science does not address the origin of life. . . and that we don't have the full "scientific (reproducible) understanding" of the origin of life. That's what I meant to write as being in agreement with David's statement.

Silver said:
Here is the piece from the cleric that Toshi bolded further down the page. Read it again:

Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense -- an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection -- is not. Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.

Notice (which Toshi also pointed out) a gross misunderstanding of neo-Darwinian theory there. Mutations may well be random, but that doesn't mean the process of selection is. I honestly don't understand why people refuse to see this point.
So, perhaps the Cardinal misunderstood what "random" means in neo-Darwinian theory. If "random" is analogous to "stochastic" in the sense that it is determined by all factors known and unknown (to human / scientists of a given age) as David explains, it will in fact collaborate with Cardinal's basic assertion that "evolution is not unguided. It is guided by natural selection", i.e. by "the internal law the nature follows", "the purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things."
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Old Man G Funk said:
I'm sorry enkidu, but you are going to have to back this statement up. We did not come up with the big bang theory through theological thinking. Abiogenetic studies do not come about through theological thinking.

Science is the best tool we have for investigating the natural world, period. Some things may be more difficult to study, but your alternative would be to pray for the answer? Besides, what happens when someone else prays for the answer and gets a completely different answer from yours? Then what?
Yes, to be able to analyze and understand what has already been there around us for over 3 bill years or so is a wonderful human capacity. Science is indeed the best tool to investigate and explain the natural world.

But we humans did not make matters out of non-matters and did not create the nature and universe as it is now. We weren't even in existence when those epochal events took place. Contemplating on these questions beyond material cause-and-effect domain, including why life first originated, is a fine theological exercise of human brain. And mind you, we don't even have to have any scientific or theological "answers" to fully enjoy and appreciate the nature around us! And that fact alone begs for in-depth scientific, theological, religious considerations, doesn't it?
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,700
1,751
chez moi
I think it's funny that the Catholic Church's chief astronomer called ID 'not science.'

When the dudes who put Galileo in jail think your science is jacked up, it's time for some self-reflection.

MD
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,520
7,854
enkidu said:
But we humans did not make matters out of non-matters and did not create the nature and universe as it is now. We weren't even in existence when those epical events took place. Contemplating on these questions beyond material cause-and-effect domain, including why life first originated, is a fine theological exercise of human brain. And mind you, we don't even have to have any scientific or theological "answers" to fully enjoy and appreciate the nature around us! And that fact alone begs for in-depth scientific, theological, religious considerations, doesn't it?
that's all very nice sounding (and i believe it's "epochal" you're searching for), but like the cardinal you are confusing the two issues: evolution and the origin of life are two separate issues.

talking about how it is grand and noble for humans to speculate on theology is nothing but a smoke screen designed to mask the untenable position the cardinal has staked out with regard to evolution.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,520
7,854
enkidu said:
So, perhaps the Cardinal misunderstood what "random" means in neo-Darwinian theory. If "random" is analogous to "stochastic" in the sense that it is determined by all factors known and unknown (to human / scientists of a given age) as David explains, it will in fact collaborate with Cardinal's basic assertion that "evolution is not unguided. It is guided by natural selection", i.e. by "the internal law the nature follows", "the purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things."
you're ascribing more to the cardinal than he deserves. his statement, already quoted, what, three times now? is in direct conflict with your perception of his views. contrast:
Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense -- an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection -- is not. Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.
in other words he says "evolution... an unguided, unplanned process... of natural selection... is not [true]". that's pretty unequivocal, and not at all like your interpretation:
enkidu said:
Cardinal's basic assertion that "evolution is not unguided. It is guided by natural selection"
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Toshi said:
that's all very nice sounding (and i believe it's "epochal" you're searching for), but like the cardinal you are confusing the two issues: evolution and the origin of life are two separate issues.

talking about how it is grand and noble for humans to speculate on theology is nothing but a smoke screen designed to mask the untenable position the cardinal has staked out with regard to evolution.
Yup, "epochal" is the word. The studies of epical mythological descriptions of the epochal pre-human events can be theological.

I think the Cardinal and I both agree that evolution and the origin of life are two separate issues. That's why science is properly placed in it's role as investigative tool, "while leaving to science many details about the history of life on earth. . ." in his article.

I don't see any attempt on his part to "confuse" or "mix" the two issues. (. . . not that I am obliged to defend him, I happen to agree with him.)
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
enkidu said:
Yes, to be able to analyze and understand what has already been there around us for over 3 bill years or so is a wonderful human capacity. Science is indeed the best tool to investigate and explain the natural world.

But we humans did not make matters out of non-matters and did not create the nature and universe as it is now. We weren't even in existence when those epical events took place. Contemplating on these questions beyond material cause-and-effect domain, including why life first originated, is a fine theological exercise of human brain. And mind you, we don't even have to have any scientific or theological "answers" to fully enjoy and appreciate the nature around us! And that fact alone begs for in-depth scientific, theological, religious considerations, doesn't it?
No, it does not.
If you don't need any scientific or theological "answers" to appreciate nature, then how does that "beg for in-depth scientific, theological, religious considerations?" You just contradicted yourself in the span of 2 sentences. In fact, I would say that if answers are not needed, then why add the extra layer of a god-filter. Why not just enjoy life, nature, etc. as is?

"Make matters out of non-matters?" Please explain this one.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
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In a handbasket
enkidu said:
I think the Cardinal and I both agree that evolution and the origin of life are two separate issues. That's why science is properly placed in it's role as investigative tool, "while leaving to science many details about the history of life on earth. . ." in his article.
Science is placed in its role as investigative tool because that's all it can be, not because evolution and origin of life are separate issues. Your insistence that science does not/can not study the origin of life is dead wrong (ever heard of Miller-Urey?), it is just not contained within the theory of evolution.
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Toshi said:
you're ascribing more to the cardinal than he deserves. his statement, already quoted, what, three times now? is in direct conflict with your perception of his views. contrast:
Well, read the quote carefully yourself! It says if the evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense means that evolution is "an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection", it is not true.

David explained that the scientific definition of "random" in neo-Darwinian is analogous to "stochastic" in the sense that it is determined by all factors known and unknown (to human / scientists of a given age). Cardinal probably lacked the understanding of the scientific definition of the term "random", but his basic assertion that there is a "purpose and design in the natural world" agrees with David's statement, "evolution is not unguided. It is guided by natural selection."

This argument hinges so much on the characterization of the varieties of more recent evolution theories. Cardinal may have come across a few "neo-Darwinian" writers who claimed that evolution happens haphazardly without any rhyme or reason. We really ought to ask him for clarification.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,520
7,854
enkidu said:
Well, read the quote carefully yourself! It says if the evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense means that evolution is "an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection", it is not true.

David explained that the scientific definition of "random" in neo-Darwinian is analogous to "stochastic" in the sense that it is determined by all factors known and unknown (to human / scientists of a given age). Cardinal probably lacked the understanding of the scientific definition of the term "random", but his basic assertion that there is a "purpose and design in the natural world" agrees with David's statement, "evolution is not unguided. It is guided by natural selection."
again you are misguided: stochastic is in the sense of a random walk with a reflecting left boundary (see http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RandomWalk.html or read stephen j. gould's "full house" for more). it does NOT imply the supernatural, and does not imply purpose or design.
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Toshi said:
again you are misguided: stochastic is in the sense of a random walk with a reflecting left boundary (see http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RandomWalk.html or read stephen j. gould's "full house" for more). it does NOT imply the supernatural, and does not imply purpose or design.
Again you are misconstruing. Even in the definition of the random walks ("Random walks have interesting mathematical properties that vary greatly depending on the dimension in which the walk occurs and whether it is confined to a lattice." ) internal law of nature is at work. At least we can agree on the presence of the aggregate of that internal law of nature, which includes all of the universe and human dimensions.

The caricatured image of "the supernatural" of your choice does not void the assumption that the internal law of nature is consistent within itself. Words like "purpose" and "design" are attempts to characterize the consistency of that natural law IMO.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,520
7,854
if you're truly saying that your "internal law of nature" are inherent in the structure of the system, as is trivially the case for random walks and the geometry of the line/lattice it's on, then i have no disagreement with you.

however, i don't think the cardinal and you are on the same page with regard to what "design" means: if it is merely the structure inherent in a system then it is entirely redundant and ridiculous to state, as the cardinal does, that there is "overwhelming evidence for design".

rather, i think the cardinal is trying to imply that there is an active influence at each iteration of evolution that has some purpose or design it is aiming towards. this influence is unnecessary, as random/stochastic/whatever mutations combined with natural selection account for observed behavior. this cannot be reconciled with the cardinal's statement that "evolution... an unguided, unplanned process... of natural selection... is not [true]".

either the cardinal does not understand natural selection and the theory of evolution, or he is making an untenable statement. pick one.
 
Jun 18, 2004
945
0
Why listen to what a Cardinal has to say about I.D.; of course he has a bias!!!... he also needs to keep his livelihood

perhaps your familiar with this article?

http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/evolution.html?pg=1&topic=evolution&topic_set=

according to what the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture is proposing, (though they never directly spell this out)... the Predators from Alien V Predators could be the intelligence that created this world... (if you've seen AVP then you know what I'm talking about)...

who's to say that another race that has conquered space travel and the theory of relativity could'nt of made us as an experiment or sacrificial source... if you google alien hybrid skeleton what will you find? how about these:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_6.htm

http://paranormal.about.com/od/mysteriousremains/a/aa060605.htm

Does ID have a Judeo-Christian undertone?, I say it doesn't have to... why can't people just think for themselves?
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Str8OutaBallard said:
Why listen to what a Cardinal has to say about I.D.; of course he has a bias!!!... he also needs to keep his livelihood

perhaps your familiar with this article?

http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/evolution.html?pg=1&topic=evolution&topic_set=

according to what the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture is proposing, (though they never directly spell this out)... the Predators from Alien V Predators could be the intelligence that created this world... (if you've seen AVP then you know what I'm talking about)...

who's to say that another race that has conquered space travel and the theory of relativity could'nt of made us as an experiment or sacrificial source... if you google alien hybrid skeleton what will you find? how about these:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_6.htm

http://paranormal.about.com/od/mysteriousremains/a/aa060605.htm

Does ID have a Judeo-Christian undertone?, I say it doesn't have to... why can't people just think for themselves?
That is not correct. According to the Discovery Institute, the definition of ID is as follows:
1. What is the theory of intelligent design?

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
(Note: emphasis mine)
This is in direct conflict with the AVP idea. How does a creature of this universe design the features of this universe?

Also, if the AVP idea were OK for ID, why would they fight so hard to overturn "materialism"?
 
Jun 18, 2004
945
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Old Man G Funk said:
That is not correct. According to the Discovery Institute, the definition of ID is as follows:

(Note: emphasis mine)
This is in direct conflict with the AVP idea. How does a creature of this universe design the features of this universe?

Also, if the AVP idea were OK for ID, why would they fight so hard to overturn "materialism"?
I'm sorry I don't follow you... couldn't "...a creature of this universe design the features of this universe..." through simply cloning, hybridizing, or genetically altering almost any living object?

also I missed in AVP where "... they fight so hard to overturn "materialism"... "... what part of the movie was that in?... refresh my memory on that, if you will...
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Str8OutaBallard said:
I'm sorry I don't follow you... couldn't "...a creature of this universe design the features of this universe..." through simply cloning, hybridizing, or genetically altering almost any living object?

also I missed in AVP where "... they fight so hard to overturn "materialism"... "... what part of the movie was that in?... refresh my memory on that, if you will...
No, a creature of this universe could not create features of this universe. See, the features have to be there first which mandates a creator outside of the universe, supernatural.

The DI fights to overturn materialism. It's all in the wedge document (where incidentally they also explicitly say that ID is about god.)

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2101

Here's some quotes from that wedge document:
The social consequences of materialism have been devastating. As symptoms, those consequences are certainly worth treating. However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism.
Governing Goals
  • To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies
  • To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.