[TN]

What do you guys think?

It is supposed help create a colorblind society but I think it does the opposite, it creates racial tension & is demeaning.

And now it is back in the news again with the Supreme Court & University of Michigan & stuff.

Discuss.

 

[Toshi]

i think it sucks and should be abolished. perhaps at some early stages of the game more assistance should be given to those in poor areas (tutoring and reading help for kids in ghetto schools and such) but once you get to college and professional school the line should be drawn. because if not there, where does it end? is one expected to go through one's whole life getting extra help from the system all because of one's race? as it is, that's how it is now -- the disparity between scores of accepted white/asian and other minority medical students is positively ridiculous.

from http://www.fairtest.org/facts/mcat.html

The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education estimated that if the top 10 highest-ranking medical schools in the nation dismantled their affirmative action policies and replaced them with strict MCAT cut-off scores, only 7 Black students would meet entrance requirements.4 Another study revealed that under admissions in which MCAT scores are of primary importance, the percentage of Blacks enrolled at the 25 most selective medical schools would drop from 10% to 1%.5

while the above page is arguing for affirmative action, i don't find its reasoning compelling. saying that graduation and residency acceptance rates are about the same is not a valid point, _because the coddling continues_.

here's another quote from http://www.taemag.org/taeam03d.htm (found through a google search -- i don't read these things normally):

"Aren't you in favor of diversity?" is code for "Don't you like black people?" And nothing chills white Americans more than the notion that they might be considered racist. So admitting black people under the bar becomes imperative. Meanwhile many blacks cheer, under the misimpression that racism is the only possible cause of unequal performance.

But the unequal performance of black students doesn't evaporate once they hit college. Racial preferences do not, as so often thought, "correct" a "raw deal" that black students have been saddled with. Instead, racial preferences merely sanction and perpetuate the separation of blacks from high academic performance.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Affirmative action is definiteley a step in the wrong direction. I think it should be illegal to ask race or sex on a college application, then no one could complain that they were discriminated against, they'd have to let the academics speak for themselves.

 

[nards656]

So would we all agree that there is absolutely no validation for the argument about "critical mass"?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by nards656
So would we all agree that there is absolutely no validation for the argument about "critical mass"?

I would, but im really not sure how that relates to this topic in any way

 

[nards656]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I would, but im really not sure how that relates to this topic in any way

Michigan maintains that affirmative action policies are necessary in order to maintain a "critical mass" of minorities in their student population. Their contention seems to be that non-minorities would receive a less-than-perfect education if they are not educated in the company of minorities and cultural variations.

I think this relates to this topic very much; not sure if you misunderstood my terminology or if you are being funny and I'M missing the point????

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by nards656

I think this relates to this topic very much; not sure if you misunderstood my terminology or if you are being funny and I'M missing the point????

No no, i misunderstood.

I thought you were talking about "Critical Mass" as in those hippy cyclists that clog up traffic.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by nards656
Michigan maintains that affirmative action policies are necessary in order to maintain a "critical mass" of minorities in their student population. Their contention seems to be that non-minorities would receive a less-than-perfect education if they are not educated in the company of minorities and cultural variations.

i don't buy this argument. the common denominator among students should be shared intellecual curiosity, not race.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by Toshi
i think it sucks and should be abolished.

the disparity between scores of accepted white/asian and other minority medical students is positively ridiculous.

As messed up and abused as the concept is, I still think it's necessary until public primary schools are brought up to par...

Those 9% that you would cut are FAR more likely to go back to their communities and serve them in ways that they would otherwise not be served. They may not become quite as good as the students that should be there based on scores, but I believe the value they provide to society by serving under-served sectors of society is worth the tradeoff. Ditto for other professions.

I wish there were a way to do it based on socio-economic background rather than race, but until then race will have to do.

Also, having gone to an undergraduate school that was a bastion of wealthy male whiteness, I can say that the average minority student added to the value of my education FAR more than the average white kid that probably did better on their SATs, and better in classes.

edit: I thought I should add, that affirmative action should NEVER be allowed to violate any minimum standards in the hiring process (which it does currently in many situations). That's an abuse of the concept and a disservice to society.

 

[nards656]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
No no, i misunderstood.

I thought you were talking about "Critical Mass" as in those hippy cyclists that clog up traffic.

LOL! I woulda been confused too!

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by ohio
As messed up and abused as the concept is, I still think it's necessary until public primary schools are brought up to par...

Those 9% that you would cut are FAR more likely to go back to their communities and serve them in ways that they would otherwise not be served. They may not become quite as good as the students that should be there based on scores, but I believe the value they provide to society by serving under-served sectors of society is worth the tradeoff. Ditto for other professions.

ok, do it for the social good, that's fine. but why must this be applied to elite schools too? where EVERYONE ELSE gets in because of good scores? there exist many tiers -- perhaps letting the chips fall where they may (as espoused in my second link above) is the answer. otherwise you have bitter asians like me, hehe

:devil:

 

[KrusteeButt]

Hmmmm...my girlfriend downloaded the ruling from the Supreme Court last night...67 pages. I have yet to read it, but I'd like to do that before I make any formal opinion.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by Toshi
ok, do it for the social good, that's fine. but why must this be applied to elite schools too?

For the benefit of people that don't think they need it.:devil:

Like I said, I went to an elite school and the small bit of diversity we had was EXTREMELY valuable to my education. I didn't miss the "smarter" kids that were displaced by affirmative action kids one bit.

On my campus, on average black and latino students were more active, more vocal, more involved by FAR, than white, asian and indian students... their scores may or may not have been as high, but based on my personal interactions they had more right to be there than most.

I always got a kick out of the kids who complained about affirmative action but were only there because their dad was alumni...

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by ohio
For the benefit of people that don't think they need it.:devil:

Like I said, I went to an elite school and the small bit of diversity we had was EXTREMELY valuable to my education. I didn't miss the "smarter" kids that were displaced by affirmative action kids one bit.

On my campus, on average black and latino students were more active, more vocal, more involved by FAR, than white, asian and indian students... their scores may or may not have been as high, but based on my personal interactions they had more right to be there than most.

I always got a kick out of the kids who complained about affirmative action but were only there because their dad was alumni...

eh, i still think you're an apologist, marc.

i agree on the last point, however -- if affirmative action goes, legacy should certainly go as well.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by Toshi
eh, i still think you're an apologist, marc.

Yeah, I am... but for other people.

Mine only arrived here about 50 years ago.



Maybe my opinion will change if I'm ever directly hurt by affirmative action, but thus far it's only made my life richer...

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ohio
Maybe my opinion will change if I'm ever directly hurt by affirmative action, but thus far it's only made my life richer...

I never thought about it in the way ohio described, but I can totally see his point of view. I grew up in Miami and diversity made my life better. I suspect made me a better person. I noticed how much I enjoyed diversity when I moved to Denver and I'm surrounded by nothing but whiteys

 

[KrusteeButt]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I... I suspect made me a better person.

Yeah, well that's up for debate! :devil:

I noticed how much I enjoyed diversity when I moved to Denver and I'm surrounded by nothing but whiteys

What?! Have you taken a look around? Granted, it may not be the same as Miami but believe me this is QUITE a diverse area...try the west/northwest suburbs of Chicago...there you'll experience a vast wealth of "White-Christian-Corporate-America".

 

[TN]

Originally posted by ohio
Yeah, I am... but for other people.

Mine only arrived here about 50 years ago.



Maybe my opinion will change if I'm ever directly hurt by affirmative action, but thus far it's only made my life richer...

I gurantee your opinion will change one your career is affected by affirmative action. Quotas have kept alot of well qualified people I know (myself included) from getting promotions.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by KrusteeButt
What?! Have you taken a look around? Granted, it may not be the same as Miami but believe me this is QUITE a diverse area...try the west/northwest suburbs of Chicago...there you'll experience a vast wealth of "White-Christian-Corporate-America".

Well, this is the least culturally diverse place I've lived, so it's the only comparison I can make. Granted, it's only the third place I've lived. I spent 30 yrs in S.Florida. One year in Raleigh, NC, and now Denver.

 

[ummbikes]

I struggle with this issue quite a bit. As a Latino and a college student I am inundated with offers for race based scholarship, tutiton waivers and the like. This fall I'll be applying to law school and I hope if my LSAT scores are good and my letters of recomendations are good that I get in because I'm good enough to be there. Where I live, Washington state, voters eliminated affirmative action a few years ago but I still see that the law schools I'm applying to (University of Washington and Seattle University) still have a "commitment to diversity" what ever the heck that is. I just don't ever want a potential client to look at my nice Latino name and think "oh you only got here because of afirmative action."

 

[Silver]

From my point of view, I like the idea behind affirmative action. I do think it was necessary in the past, for sure. Today though, it seems like the people who take the most advantage of it are upper and middle class already. Education seems to be one of those things that perpetuates itself through generations like a snowball rolling down a hill, I think that's probably a big reason for it. For every poor inner city kid, there are a lot of upper/middle class kids checking that box, and while it's not wrong, it does kinda go against the spirit of the idea.

(Disclaimer...I don't know if that perception is true or not. Anyone have some stats so I can stop talking out of my ass?)

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I just don't ever want a potential client to look at my nice Latino name and think "oh you only got here because of afirmative action."

Unlikely. Even if you get special treatment to get into the school, it's still just as tough for you as any "white" kid. You'll earn your way, don't worry about that

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by LordOpie
Unlikely. Even if you get special treatment to get into the school, it's still just as tough for you as any "white" kid. You'll earn your way, don't worry about that

I do seem to get the same assignments as the other students. As far as the "kid" part I'm 32 .

I do see your point.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I do seem to get the same assignments as the other students. As far as the "kid" part I'm 32 .

I do see your point.

Awesome! Goof for you for going back to school! I think there should be affirmative action for anyone over 30 going back to school

Like me, i'm 34yo and started back last semester... I'd like some action :devil:

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by LordOpie
Awesome! Goof for you for going back to school! I think there should be affirmative action for anyone over 30 going back to school

Like me, i'm 34yo and started back last semester... I'd like some action :devil:

Ya no kidding. I went to "get together" a couple weeks ago it nearly killed me. My classmates can drink and still function the next day. Hardly fair... Plus all the ladies are like 20!!! It's like they are college aged!

The acedemic part has been pretty easy. I struggled with all the writing for a few months and then that became easier too.

I went back at 29 and will be 33 when I graduaute in March. Then off to law school!!!

 

[ohio]

I was thinking about this over the weekend (I had about 6 hours of driving to do...) and I'll lie to amend/append my previous posts.

Despite my advocacy of affirmative action, I am extremely uncomfortable with the inherent racism of distinguishing people by color of skin. As I mentioned before, if we are using affirmative action as a tool for advancement of underprivileged, the system shoud be based on socio-economic status. If we are using it as a tool for enhancing the environment of a place of work or learning, the system should be based on CULTURAL background rather than color of skin.

Management and admissions office love to look around and see a
"rainbow of colors," but it's preposterous to use a system that treats someone from Kenya as filling the same "slot" as someone from suburban Maryland because they have roughly the same skin color. Or doesn't recognize a similar "diversity" value from a white Kosovoan refugee... When I look at my own claims of benefit from a diverse environment, it has nothing to do with my friends' and colleagues' skin color and has everything to do with the differences in their upbringings, experiences, and core values.

So I'd like to change my argument. I am opposed to affirmative action based purely on race. I am for active advancement of the under-privileged based on socio-economic status, and I am for "diversity engineering" when it is based on cultural background, because I feel both provide a clear value to society and recognize an ACTUAL value in candidates.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ohio
If we are using it as a tool for enhancing the environment of a place of work or learning, the system should be based on CULTURAL background rather than color of skin.

Ohio man,

Who then is going to be the judge of which cultures are of high priority? Who is to say that the culture of trailer park families in middle america is of any less value than the culture of swahili bushmen in the middle of africa? Who decides which values from which cultures will be admitted into learning institutions? Will there be a culture test to define which cultures will add most to the learning environment of the average college joe? Will people of Irish descent with their culture be treated different than those of germany? Say they're the same and i bet you'll get a bloody face from some of them. Your idea is quite flawed IMO, as is the entire concept of affirmative action.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Ohio man,

Who then is going to be the judge of which cultures are of high priority? Who is to say that the culture of trailer park families in middle america is of any less value than the culture of swahili bushmen in the middle of africa? Who decides which values from which cultures will be admitted into learning institutions? Will there be a culture test to define which cultures will add most to the learning environment of the average college joe? Will people of Irish descent with their culture be treated different than those of germany? Say they're the same and i bet you'll get a bloody face from some of them. Your idea is quite flawed IMO, as is the entire concept of affirmative action.

It was odd to read that from you considering you WANT the government to make such arbitrary decisions, like weed, homosexuality.

 

[stevew]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I noticed how much I enjoyed diversity when I moved to Denver and I'm surrounded by nothing but whiteys

Try Aurora.

Try Wheatridge.

Try Colfax Ave.


Denver is plenty diverse. You don't have to look that hard.

steve

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by BurlySurly

Who then is going to be the judge of which cultures are of high priority? Who is to say that the culture of trailer park families in middle america is of any less value than the culture of swahili bushmen in the middle of africa? Who decides which values from which cultures will be admitted into learning institutions?

Admissions officers already do this every day. They say "we've already got 14 white women from private schools in New England... we don't need anymore. It's more valuable to our campus to take this kid from rural Idaho even if he has lower scores, and less extra-curriculars."

If you don't think filling a cultural niche at a school will help you out in any liberal arts admissions office TODAY, you're kidding yourself. If everything were based purely on numbers, the Ivy's wouldn't even have midwestern and southern public-schooled white kids, let alone underprivileged latinos.

These people are payed to make judgement calls about what is best for their school and campus.

HR departments do the exact same thing. They make decisions about what experience (in business or life) is more valuable to them, and if personel with a diverse range of experience is valuable to them, that's what they assemble, even if it means rejecting an excellent candidate only because that slot is already filled.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by stevew
Try Aurora.

Try Wheatridge.

Try Colfax Ave.


Denver is plenty diverse. You don't have to look that hard.

steve

I now live at Monaco and Mississippi, so it's better (diverse), but still, nothing like Miami. There's only one fvcking Cuban restuarant in all of the greater Denver area!!! And it ain't no where near as good and it's twice as much money. Am I annoying or what?

PS: Steve, where do you live? What do you like to ride? I try to roadbike 25 miles every Tuesday and Thursday along Cherry Creek and mtb on the weekends. If you wanna ride, let me know.