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An even bigger tantrum?

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
I saw in the Marin write up and the polygon write up that they both talk about shocks needing some percentage less damping.

Has this been discussed? Does the system have extra friction from the tube slider thingy slowing it down that makes it feel like it needs less damping?

In the slow mo of the Marin video, it didn't look like the rear wheel was tracking the rough terrain particullarly well on the downhill sections.
It's bullshit

The vital review talks about adding 7-8 clicks of rebound.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
That slider is basically just another shock in terms of seals/sources of friction. Except with an even lower leverage advantage to overcome it.

I don't doubt that it pedals really well. However, damping is not strictly a function of reducing pedal movement. The fact that the designers keep referencing damping in this way makes me trust them about 0%
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
That slider is basically just another shock in terms of seals/sources of friction. Except with an even lower leverage advantage to overcome it.

I don't doubt that it pedals really well. However, damping is not strictly a function of reducing pedal movement. The fact that the designers keep referencing damping in this way makes me trust them about 0%
Well, it should have less friction than a shock because it's not pressurized and it's only got one seal, instead of a few between the damper and spring. But yeah, basically.

Like people have been saying, this is just a way to tune the kinematics of what is, at the end of the day, really just a 4 bar linkage. And that's fine! Maybe they tuned it really well. But like you said, all this talk about not needing damping reeks of bullshit, and makes me not believe anything else they're saying either.
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
Didn't DW himself say something like "the dumber the shock, the better it works" when talking about the DW-Link? I recall him talking along that line when referring to damping platforms and stuff in relation to the AS tuning of his system.

Since this is essentially a one-rodded Switch Infinity, which is essentially a modified DW-Link, wouldn't the "lower damping" claims by Darrel Voss hold true?
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Didn't DW himself say something like "the dumber the shock, the better it works"

Dw said a lot of things. :)

In regards to pedaling on his bikes he was right. In regards to everything else one does on a bike (when standing up at least), his early bikes (and most of the current ones) benefit very greatly from some good ole fashioned smarty pants compression damping.
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Its a simple fact... a spring absorbs and stores energy, then releases it back into the system. You need damping to dissipate energy (turn it into heat in this case). without damping, you would just go boingy boing boing.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,559
AK
Cat3/expert XC racers push their equipment harder than the majority of AM/DH riders.
Too good to let go that I reversed what I meant to say?


After that article, I need to dampen my liver, with scotch.
 

ZHendo

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2006
1,661
147
PNW
Not to rag on Marin and Polygon as companies, but if a genius wizard suspension designer had truly found the holy grail of suspension design, I would find it very surprising that he pursued those 2 companies as his partners in development...but maybe that's irrelevant and I'm missing something.

In any case, the first thing that stuck out at me was the claim about not needing damping. That's bull. It sounds like the same thing that Santa Cruz and other companies said about VPP back in the day..."pedals so well you don't need compression damping!" Yeah, the old Nomad had like 200% anti-squat.

The second thing was how similar the rhetoric is to the way that all of these magazines have described previous bikes. Bikes with significant rearward axle paths were greeted with the same commentary: "rides like nothing I've ever tried before! Irons out bumps!" Bikes with lots of anti-squat were talked about as "XC bike up and DH bike down, one bike to rule them all!" There could be something here that is truly revolutionary, but as kidwoo mentions, similarities to the way that the hype machine has talked about previous bikes in the past has given me complete distrust of this tech.
 

blindboxx2334

Turbo Monkey
Mar 19, 2013
1,340
101
Wets Coast
Not to rag on Marin and Polygon as companies, but if a genius wizard suspension designer had truly found the holy grail of suspension design, I would find it very surprising that he pursued those 2 companies as his partners in development...but maybe that's irrelevant and I'm missing something.
polygon owns marin, apparently. I didn't know that until earlier today.
 

trib

not worthy of a Rux.
Jun 22, 2009
1,458
388
I still don't get why the tube isn't the shock.

Not enough stroke?
Too hard to access?
Not weird enough?
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
I still don't get why the tube isn't the shock.
Not enough stroke?
Too hard to access?
If we've learnt anything from the tantrum fiasco, it's to never apply any form of logic to these clearly illogical monstrosities.

I saw in the Marin write up and the polygon write up that they both talk about shocks needing some percentage less damping.

Has this been discussed? Does the system have extra friction from the tube slider thingy slowing it down that makes it feel like it needs less damping?

In the slow mo of the Marin video, it didn't look like the rear wheel was tracking the rough terrain particullarly well on the downhill sections.
See above.
There's another new bike on PB today (Spot 29) claiming the same thing - using a leaf spring that magically eliminates the need for damping. Because springs are now dampers.
...the plate acts like a leaf spring, providing extra mid-stroke support, and making it possible to run the rear shock wide open at all times
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,191
media blackout
There's another new bike on PB today (Spot 29) claiming the same thing - using a leaf spring that magically eliminates the need for damping. Because springs are now dampers.
It still has a shock. What it has is a flexible link. Which is pretty much lolwut
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,037
7,554
In regards to pedaling on his bikes he was right. In regards to everything else one does on a bike (when standing up at least), his early bikes (and most of the current ones) benefit very greatly from some good ole fashioned smarty pants compression damping.
I could use some more compression damping in trail mode on my 5010, with its similarly magic-hyped VPP. Thing bobs like mad when standing.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,037
7,554
That pivoting action seems ideal to jam that seat up one's bunghole on the rebound.
 

trib

not worthy of a Rux.
Jun 22, 2009
1,458
388
it still makes me think.

Someone got out their favourite bike design software, maybe it was just a pen and pencil, and started working on their brilliant solution to allow a bike to pivot around the bottom bracket - without the awful pedaling that normally results in. Tens of people wanted this! It'll be a best seller! What else do people want? 14+" high bottom brackets, 100mm stems, several pieces of rotating hardware at exactly knee height...

It's the design of the century!
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
it still makes me think.

Someone got out their favourite bike design software, maybe it was just a pen and pencil, and started working on their brilliant solution to allow a bike to pivot around the bottom bracket - without the awful pedaling that normally results in. Tens of people wanted this! It'll be a best seller! What else do people want? 14+" high bottom brackets, 100mm stems, several pieces of rotating hardware at exactly knee height...

It's the design of the century!
Yeah, that's the thing that I find so interesting about that bike. It's actually a pretty neat, clever bit of engineering, to accomplish something that nobody wants and makes no sense as a design goal.
 

trib

not worthy of a Rux.
Jun 22, 2009
1,458
388
Yeah, that's the thing that I find so interesting about that bike. It's actually a pretty neat, clever bit of engineering, to accomplish something that nobody wants and makes no sense as a design goal.
I love seeing it turn up each year at Sea Otter. It's just so misdirected. It makes me outrageously happy that people have given this guy money in return for one of the least necesasary bikes ever made. Figured out a way to make a bb pivot bike pedal well? Better make is singlespeed! Oh god I love this flaming garbage pile of a bike

Edit: forgot my favourite, favourite part. Got rid of the derailleur and miss smashing delicate bike parts into rocks? Don't worry, the rear brake calliper is underneath the chainstay. Because fuck you, that's why
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,559
AK
I like how in this picture (that I posted in the other thread) there appears a 140mm rear rotor (same as the one above). Don't worry though, he's got you covered for front brakes.

 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,191
media blackout
I love seeing it turn up each year at Sea Otter. It's just so misdirected. It makes me outrageously happy that people have given this guy money in return for one of the least necesasary bikes ever made. Figured out a way to make a bb pivot bike pedal well? Better make is singlespeed! Oh god I love this flaming garbage pile of a bike

Edit: forgot my favourite, favourite part. Got rid of the derailleur and miss smashing delicate bike parts into rocks? Don't worry, the rear brake calliper is underneath the chainstay. Because fuck you, that's why
at least in that picture it's in an appropriate booth.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,750
439
MA

Relatively high chaingrowth and kicback and relatively forward axle path. Leverage ratio is OK for a 160mm bike
So world's most complicated Orange? :busted:

Not that this wasn't obvious when some of AS graphs were shared and they showed the videos with the kickback one would have expected.

IMO different strokes for folks. Lots of people get on with the Orange and higher pivot bikes with that 'pop' effect you get with the rising AS....