[Silver]

pfft, typical.....there I go again thinking that a liberal MIGHT be amenable to an equitable comprimise.

You do realize I hope that the propogation of disrespect for peoples values in regard to religion will only serve to further alienate people of faith who have historically voted Democrat thus ensuring future Republican victories.

What happend to the left that accepted people and their values and purported to honor and respect folks regardless of race or creed?

Just because you have faith in something doesn't mean anyone needs to respect it. Believing in the tooth fairy isn't a virtue in an adult, it's a sign of mental defect. And before you go all crazy on me for that, consider your feelings toward Allah or Scientology and get back to me.

I won't pigeonhole someone about their race, that isn't relevant or even changeable anyways. But a creed is something you believe in...and if you happen to believe in pink elephants or that Jesus planted fossils to test your faith, or that condoms don't help prevent AIDS, I'm going to point out how stupid you are for thinking that.

The alternative is to feel reverence toward the person that believes the most unbelievable thing imaginable...and I'm not going to be a party to that. Believing in stupid **** is bad enough, trying to teach it as science when it isn't is nothing short of lying.

 

[H8R]

What happend to the left that accepted people and their values and purported to honor and respect folks regardless of race or creed?

There still there.

Silver doesn't speak for them either.

 

[Toshi]

"honor and respect[ing] folks regardless of race or creed" does not imply catering to their every whim or holding that their beliefs are true.

 

[Transcend]

I can live with that, provided that instructors include in curricula that nothing they are teaching in regard to evolution or the origin of the galaxy is proven.

I am quite tolerant of religion, you can worship whatever you like if it makes you feel better, but the day sopmeone tries to force these beliefs on myself or my children, is the day i turn incredibly beligirent.

Keep your beliefs to yourself, and I will keep mine to myself. I detest religious people who try and force their beliefs down others throats. They have a religion class in most schools, leave it there. If you wish for your children to attend a special class, then so be it.

Luckily, I got an exception from this class and wasn't forced to attend and listen to drivel when i could be doing more important things, like learning desktop publishing.

Evolution is pretty damn straight forward, if someone chooses not to see what is right in front of their damn face, I feel really sorry them. (cue toshi's whale leg example, bacterial evolution etc etc).

 

[Transcend]

pfft, typical.....there I go again thinking that a liberal MIGHT be amenable to an equitable comprimise.

You do realize I hope that the propogation of disrespect for peoples values in regard to religion will only serve to further alienate people of faith who have historically voted Democrat thus ensuring future Republican victories.

What happend to the left that accepted people and their values and purported to honor and respect folks regardless of race or creed?

OR how about, you keep your religious beliefs to yourself, we will do the same, and the government runs as a business, not a friggin group of self-righteous evangelists?

How about you respect OUR beliefs, and not attempt to cram yours down our throat? HMM? The ball bounces both ways.

 

[fluff]

newtonian mechanics explain things just fine until distances get nearly unfathomably small. but you know this, and are just arguing for the sake of it. :nuts: in any case, the point is that newtonian mechanics works on most scales, and does not contradict current "correct" theory at said scales. complexities of string theory do not perceptibly alter the trajectory of a softball.

creationism does not jive with observed evidence at ANY scale. entirely different matter. try again.

As it happens the flaws in Newtonian mechanics were noted due to anomalies on planetary orbits. It is Relativity that breaks down at quantum levels.

 

[fluff]

Notice the misdirection, which fluff has been doing as well:

It's not schools, it's teaching it as an alternative theory in science class that is the problem. Mention it in history, along with all the other creation myths.

You accuse me of misdirection yet you wanna talk about teapots? Wnna talk about pots and kettles too? You can mention specific creation myths in philosophy/metaphyics (not history) but there is no reason not to teach creationism in science.

What are you so afraid of?

 

[fluff]

then it has no place in an institution of secular scientific knowledge.. like a public school.

to deny it a place in the league of science is not ignoring it.
it certainly has a place, but, its place is NOT among other "scientific theories" (aka a secular publicly funded school) because it doesnt comply with the requirements to be a "secular scientific knowledge".

again, if we admit ONE theory that is not "secular scientific knowledge" in a league where only such knowledge is to be taught, then why should we stop at one? should we?

As part of science you need to teach the history and development of current theory. This involves teaching older superceded theory. Creation theory is one of these. Therefore it can validly be taught in science class.

yo wait, now this is kinda pcp-esque...
validity is what makes an unknown scientist theory a nobel recipient or a genius...
validity is what defines the popularity of a theory, not the other way around.

Did you read the last sentence of my post?

 

[jaydee]

I have no problem with students being taught that creationism is part of the belief structure of some religions, as long as it is taught in the context of a religion class. Students can make their own conclusions about it. As a metaphysical or philosophical belief system (to refer to what fluff said), it has no place in a science class. Students tend to take science classes as fact, even though obviously scientific knowledge is being constantly updated. Based on the evidence we have now, creation theory doesn't hang together. Evolution is a much more likely explanation, even though there are some holes in that theory too. Creation theory never was an empirically-based hypothesis; it just existed when we had no other plausible explanation for life on the planet. So it doesn't belong anywhere in a science class, even as a superceded theory.

 

[Damn True]

Just because you have faith in something doesn't mean anyone needs to respect it. Believing in the tooth fairy isn't a virtue in an adult, it's a sign of mental defect. And before you go all crazy on me for that, consider your feelings toward Allah or Scientology and get back to me.

The thing is dude, that what somone believes (regardless of faith or lack of) is at the very core of who they are. If we were somehow able to remove every value within you, every sliver of awareness of what is right and wrong, your sense of honor to your family, all of what shapes you. What we would be left with is nothing. You'd think nothing, you'd offer nothing and you certainly would not be the guy I have so much freakin fun (usually ) shooting the $hit with on this silly website. You are what you believe. Regardless of the source of those beliefs be it biblical, buhddism, Islam or a couple of parents who did their best to raise a kid it is those things that make you, you.
As a man, how can I not honor and respect that?

IMO that is the absolute best reason for not only allowing, but ensuring that discussions like this one happen in schools. I think division and separation of ourselves from each other is one of the primary reasons why people are so f@#$ked up to each other sometimes. We need to work harder to understand each other. The best way to do that is by understand where the person next to you is coming from.

If we eliminate learning about people from schools we will wind up with a generation of really freakin smart engineers who won't be able to work with one another.

"The most widely accepted theroy is that of evolution, however, there are many people who believe in different forms of creation and/or intelligent design."

I don't think saying this is teaching it as science. I think it's teaching it as understanding which in the long run for society is a far more valueable concept to grasp than physics.

 

[Damn True]

I am quite tolerant of religion, you can worship whatever you like if it makes you feel better, but the day sopmeone tries to force these beliefs on myself or my children, is the day i turn incredibly beligirent.

Keep your beliefs to yourself, and I will keep mine to myself. I detest religious people who try and force their beliefs down others throats. They have a religion class in most schools, leave it there. If you wish for your children to attend a special class, then so be it.

Luckily, I got an exception from this class and wasn't forced to attend and listen to drivel when i could be doing more important things, like learning desktop publishing.

Evolution is pretty damn straight forward, if someone chooses not to see what is right in front of their damn face, I feel really sorry them. (cue toshi's whale leg example, bacterial evolution etc etc).

Creating further division can only be counterproductive to the long term health of a society.

 

[Damn True]

pfft, typical.....there I go again thinking that a liberal MIGHT be amenable to an equitable comprimise.

You do realize I hope that the propogation of disrespect for peoples values in regard to religion will only serve to further alienate people of faith who have historically voted Democrat thus ensuring future Republican victories.

What happend to the left that accepted people and their values and purported to honor and respect folks regardless of race or creed?




OR how about, you keep your religious beliefs to yourself, we will do the same, and the government runs as a business, not a friggin group of self-righteous evangelists?

How about you respect OUR beliefs, and not attempt to cram yours down our throat? HMM? The ball bounces both ways.

Not sure how that relates to the post you quoted. Again, divisiveness is not a means to greater understanding. Nobody is cramming anything down anyones throat. No child is being graded on wether or not they believe in something. The simple fact is that greater learning will occur if we present everything we can to kids and let them and their parents shape those concepts into values.

 

[Toshi]

As it happens the flaws in Newtonian mechanics were noted due to anomalies on planetary orbits. It is Relativity that breaks down at quantum levels.

my mistake, i must have slept through that lecture in high school. do you have a link where i can read more of this history?

 

[Damn True]

I have no problem with students being taught that creationism is part of the belief structure of some religions, as long as it is taught in the context of a religion class. Students can make their own conclusions about it. As a metaphysical or philosophical belief system (to refer to what fluff said), it has no place in a science class. Students tend to take science classes as fact, even though obviously scientific knowledge is being constantly updated. Based on the evidence we have now, creation theory doesn't hang together. Evolution is a much more likely explanation, even though there are some holes in that theory too. Creation theory never was an empirically-based hypothesis; it just existed when we had no other plausible explanation for life on the planet. So it doesn't belong anywhere in a science class, even as a superceded theory.

Some things transcend science.
Can you fully grasp the importance of the proof of the world being round without first understanding that it was once thought to be flat? The ramifications of this transcend science because they influenced global economics, religion, government etc.

Superceded theory is immensly important even if the superceded theroy is still threatening to some. You can't pick and choose which subjects you will treat with great depth and which you will only present current theroy. Doing so is a tremendous disservice to learning and understanding.

 

[Toshi]

Some things transcend science.
Can you fully grasp the importance of the proof of the world being round without first understanding that it was once thought to be flat? The ramifications of this transcend science because they influenced global economics, religion, government etc.

Superceded theory is immensly important even if the superceded theroy is still threatening to some. You can't pick and choose which subjects you will treat with great depth and which you will only present current theroy. Doing so is a tremendous disservice to learning and understanding.

did you derive all of the formulas you used in physics? did you study cuneiform before learning the alphabet? did you learn about the stanley steamer before being taught how to drive?

 

[Damn True]

did you derive all of the formulas you used in physics?
no, but I was taught how and why they came to be which often included superceded theroy
did you study cuneiform before learning the alphabet?
Not strictly in that order, but are we not taught the evolution of language from crude pictograph to the written and spoken word? You can't fully understand modern western languages without understanding their link to latin.
did you learn about the stanley steamer before being taught how to drive?
Well I do recall that the first steam engine was invented in roughly 1690 to pump water out of mines and that the first four stroke internal combustion engine was invented in the 1870's. I learned that before I learned to drive.

Seriously, what is so scary about this to you?

 

[Toshi]

Seriously, what is so scary about this to you?

i already answered that: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1573971#post1573762

 

[Damn True]

i already answered that: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1573971#post1573762

I was hoping for something a bit less "fear monger" from you but since you are sticking with that......



"The most widely accepted theroy is that of evolution, however, there are many people who believe in different forms of creation and/or intelligent design."

I don't think saying this is teaching it as science. I think it's teaching it as understanding which in the long run for society is a far more valueable concept to grasp than physics.

If we eliminate learning about people from schools we will wind up with a generation of really freakin smart engineers who won't be able to work with one another.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

As part of science you need to teach the history and development of current theory. This involves teaching older superceded theory. Creation theory is one of these. Therefore it can validly be taught in science class.

if time can be gotten for this to be squeezed into the science curricula, and if a "history of science" class is not available, then maybe it could be taught as "an old fairy tale" just like other superceded theories and put in the same league as other pseudosciences like alchemy...

but IMO, it would still be a waste of time and resources to add a (strictly scientific) trivial idea to modern science... specially when other less trivial and more relevant scientific ideas could use that time...

just like toshi says... you dont derive all physics in middle school.. why should biology get a different treatment, and why should creationism get accomodations it doesnt deserve from a scientific point of view????

a mention? maybe in history of science or other non-science class... but a place "alongside" (word you used before) evolution???? no way....

 

[Toshi]

"The most widely accepted theroy is that of evolution, however, there are many people who believe in different forms of creation and/or intelligent design."

I don't think saying this is teaching it as science. I think it's teaching it as understanding which in the long run for society is a far more valueable concept to grasp than physics.

If we eliminate learning about people from schools we will wind up with a generation of really freakin smart engineers who won't be able to work with one another.

uh, third paragraph is a non sequitur. unless learning about creationism teaches us about human fallacy.

my problem with your quoted statement is that it implies that "acceptance" or popularity is the important part about a theory. the thing is -- and this has been hammered home countless times in this thread already -- a scientific theory like evolution has evidence backing it up, and there is no evidence that directly contradicts it, like a dinosaur found living today or a precambrian human.

saying "there are people who think that there is intelligent design" and trying to pass it off as being on the same level as evolution by the popularity argument above is EXACTLY why creationism has no place in schools.

 

[Damn True]

Here's a thought.
There are things more valueable to the overall education of a child than science.

 

[Silver]

You accuse me of misdirection yet you wanna talk about teapots? Wnna talk about pots and kettles too? You can mention specific creation myths in philosophy/metaphyics (not history) but there is no reason not to teach creationism in science.

What are you so afraid of?

My teapot theory is just as valid as creationism.

You want to know why I'm afraid? Because this is one of the few subjects in science where people with theology degrees are taken as seriously as people who have actually studied the discipline.

A 14 year old wandering over from Pinkbike that failed his math class lecturing dw or ohio on suspension design would get laughed at, and rightfully so. Yet on this topic, anyone comes up with an idea, and they are all on equal footing somehow. I suppose we should be teaching Lamarckism in science class as well?

 

[Damn True]

My teapot theory is just as valid as creationism.

You want to know why I'm afraid? Because this is one of the few subjects in science where people with theology degrees are taken as seriously as people who have actually studied the discipline.

Why shouldn't they be. Hasn't the matter of study of a theologist had as great if not a greater impact on the shape of the world as we know it as science?

Overlooking the opportunity to teach kids more than just readin ritin and rithmatic by teaching only current theory seems a horrible disservice.

You might as well only teach about the last 40 years of history in a history class.

 

[Toshi]

Why shouldn't they be. Hasn't the matter of study of a theologist had as great if not a greater impact on the shape of the world as we know it as science?

Overlooking the opportunity to teach kids more than just readin ritin and rithmatic by teaching only current theory seems a horrible disservice.

You might as well only teach about the last 40 years of history in a history class.

which brings us back to the point of teaching science in science class, and keeping your handwaving in philosophy and religion classes.

 

[H8R]

Overlooking the opportunity to teach kids more than just readin ritin and rithmatic by teaching only current theory seems a horrible disservice.
.

To you.


You're forgetting drama, music, biology, geology, home ec, PE, shop, etc etc.

All very useful stuff. And some of it is voluntary. The really important everyday skills are mandatory.

Let's leave it that way.

Religion is not a life skill that you need to be productive. Sure, you may think that it a neccessity for a rich and meaningful life, but hey - that's what electives are for.



Evolution is a theory. Let's say it again, a theory. It has some evidence to back it up.

Aside from the occasional face of Jesus in a tortilla or grilled cheese sandwich, we don't see much concrete evidence of the christian God, or any other diety.

Unless of course you count the strange Christian idea I heard recently that God put dinosaur fossils in the ground as a test of faith. I love that one.

 

[Silver]

Why shouldn't they be. Hasn't the matter of study of a theologist had as great if not a greater impact on the shape of the world as we know it as science?

I'll let Roger Ingersoll sum that up:

"When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few....The poor were clad in rags and skins - they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and...There is more of value in the brain of an average man of today - of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago.

These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars - neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience - and for them all, man is indebted to man."

 

[Damn True]

which brings us back to the point of teaching science in science class, and keeping your handwaving in philosophy and religion classes.

Good lord man, remove the tinfoil hat.

The point is that kids will learn MORE if we teach them MORE. The subjects of religion and science are intrinsicly linked. By including alternate theroies it will offer alternative methods of not only understanding the nuts and bolts of science, but gaining an appreciation for the process and how it effects not only science itself, but people.

If you put everything into neat little separate boxes the opportunity for this broader learning is lost.

Again, there is more to life than equations. Unless you'd prefer a world full of people like John Nash. Brilliant but socially inept.

Furthermore, we have fewer and fewer kids following educational paths toward science. Perhaps it's because in doing what you suggest we have made it too clinical and narrow. Perhaps in broadening curricula and illustrating how society and culture (inclucing religion) affect science, and how science affects society and culture we can attract more people into these fields.

[damn, its 1am and my Captain Morgan content is a bit high.....is it affect or effect?]

 

[H8R]

Good lord man, remove the tinfoil hat....

...The subjects of religion and science are intrinsicly linked.

This is what makes America great, crazy-ass crazy people calling crazy ass crazy people crazy.

 

[Damn True]

To you.

All very useful stuff. And some of it is voluntary. The really important everyday skills are mandatory.

Let's leave it that way.

Religion is not a life skill that you need to be productive. Sure, you may think that it a neccessity for a rich and meaningful life, but hey - that's what electives are for.

The most important everyday skill is understanding how to get along with people. You cannot do that if you ignore the factors that influence their values.

Beyond that, I'll submit that all the scientific knowledge in the world is worthless if people don't understand where it came from what effected its development and its social impacts.

 

[jaydee]

I think religion and science are intrinsically UNlinked. Religion is defined by faith, i.e. belief without any proof or need for proof, and often in the face of apparently contradictory evidence. Science, by definition, requires rigorous experiment and replicable results, i.e. proof, or at least close enough for rock 'n' roll. Leave science to scientists and religion to theologists and teach whatever the hell you want, but do it in the right place. The Bible is NOT in the same category as Principia Mathematica. Neither is better or worse, but they don't belong on the same library shelf.

 

[fluff]

my mistake, i must have slept through that lecture in high school. do you have a link where i can read more of this history?

A link? Don't you read books? A Brief History of Time touches on it as does pretty much aby book about relativity. Otherwise you know how to use Google just as well as I do eh?

Hmm, odd that, ABHoT also touches upon creationism, what's that doing there - mental note - give Hawkings a good kicking next time I meet him for a pub-crawl.

 

[fluff]

I'll let Roger Ingersoll sum that up:

"When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few....The poor were clad in rags and skins - they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and...There is more of value in the brain of an average man of today - of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago.

These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars - neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience - and for them all, man is indebted to man."

You've got to be ****ing kidding me. Most of the world still lives in poverty. The rule of science has given us...

Nuclear weapons
Chemical weapons
Gas chambers
Biological weapons

We're so much better off! More bombs drop from the sky than blessings.

I expect better from you than inverted bigotry.

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

Here's a thought.
There are things more valueable to the overall education of a child than science.

I don't suppose the word "Parents" would mean anything to you?
Or how about "Private School"?

I agree that there are valuables lesson's children should be taught. I do not agree that all of those lesson's should be taught in PUBLIC school. I happen to be a very spiritual person. I meditate regularly and believe there is more to our being than meets the eye. I DO NOT, however, believe that someone elses child should be subjected to my beliefs. You asked what I was afraid of, I told you. I never got a reply. Religion is the most divisive thing I can think of. Historically [and currently], competing religious beliefs have torn societies apart. The religious right is trying to do just that ... again. The best way to honor and respect someones beliefs and culture is to not force them to listen to yours. Children are required BY LAW to attend school. Curriculum should therefor not be a podium by which a small segment of society indoctrinates the young with their beliefs. Fine, you dig Jesus. You believe the earth was created in 7 days. But what of all the other creation stories? How would you feel if your child was taught Quetzalcoatl was the Creator? What in the world makes you so self-important and self-rightous that your version of creation is the only and correct one? The idea behind secular education is to allow parents to raise their children with the beliefs they want to instill. It is NOT your job to raise other peoples children. Your claim of intolarence is wholly bogus.

Science deals in the physical world, we all live in the physical world ... that is why it is taught in PUBLIC school. That is not to say that the physical world is all there is, but rather that it is something we can rationally discern, understand, and communicate with each other WITHOUT a leap of FAITH.

Evolution is a creation story that the scientific method has brought us, that is why it is taught in science class. Just as Gaia is a creation story from greek mythology and taught in mythology class. What is so hard to understand about that? What are YOU so afraid of?

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

Here's some great creation stories. You think we would ever get around to F=MA if we had to teach these as well?

The Blessing Seed
God creates man and woman and assigns them a special duty that is also a special gift, "You will care for everything on earth. Listen for the song that I sang at the beginning. My song is in everything and it will help you to learn and to care." When Man and Woman eat of the Tree of Life, instead of punishing them God leads them to the four paths: wonder, emptiness, making and coming home. From now on they will have the blessing seed within them to spread through the world.

Apache Creation Story
In the beginning nothing existed, no earth, no sky, no sun, no moon, only darkness was everywhere. Suddenly, from the darkness emerged a thin disc, one side yellow and the other side white, appearing suspended in midair. Within the disc sat a small bearded man, the Creator, the One Who Lives Above.

California Yokut Creation Story
A Great Flood had occurred upon Earth long, long ago. While Earth was still covered with water, there were no living creatures upon the land. Then out of the sky one day glided an enormous Eagle, with a black Crow riding upon its back, searching for a place to light. Around and around Eagle flew until he discovered a projecting tree stump, or what appeared to be a stump, upon which he landed to rest. There was a home at last upon the flat surface which was amply large enough for Eagle and Crow to roost upon.

Comanche Creation Story
One day the Great Spirit collected swirls of dust from the four directions in order to create the Comanche people. These people formed from the earth had the strength of mighty storms. Unfortunately, a shape-shifting demon was also created and began to torment the people. The Great Spirit cast the demon into a bottomless pit. To seek revenge the demon took refuge in the fangs and stingers of poisonous creatures and continues to harm people every chance it gets."

Washington Chelan Indians
Long, long ago, the Creator, the Great Chief Above, made the world. Then he made the animals and the birds and gave them their names--Coyote, Grizzly Bear, Deer, Fox, Eagle, the four Wolf Brothers, Magpie, Bluejay, Hummingbird, and all the others. When he had finished his work, the Creator called the animal people to him. "I am going to leave you," he said. "But I will come back. When I come again, I will make human beings. They will be in charge of you." The Great Chief returned to his home in the sky, and the animal people scattered to all parts of the world.

Mik'Maq Creation
After the world was created and after the animals, birds, and plants were placed on the surface, Gisoolg caused a bolt of lightening to hit the surface of Ootsitgamoo. This bolt of lightning caused the formation of an image of a human body shaped out of sand. It was Glooscap who was first shaped out of the basic element of the Mik'Maq world, sand. Gisoolg unleashed another bolt of lightening which gave life to Glooscap, but yet he could not move. He was stuck to the ground only to watch the world go by and Nisgam travel across the sky everyday. Glooscap watched the animals, the birds ,and the plants grow and pass around him. He asked Nisgam to give him freedom to move about the Mik'Maq world.

Mexico Creator
The Telleriano-Remensis and Florentine codices declare that Quetzalcoatl, as great artificer, ‘formed’ and ‘molded’ the first human beings in his image and that only he, and no other god, had a human body.

Aborigine Creation Myth
There was a time when everything was still. All the spirits of the earth were asleep, or almost all. The great Father of All Spirits was the only one awake. Gently he awoke the Sun Mother. As she opened her eyes, a warm ray of light spread out towards the sleeping earth. The Father of All Spirits said to the Sun Mother, "Mother, I have work for you. Go down to the Earth and awake the sleeping spirits. Give them forms." The Sun Mother glided down to Earth, which was bare at the time and began to walk in all directions and everywhere she walked plants grew. After returning to the field where she had begun her work the Mother rested, well pleased with herself. The Father of All Spirits came and saw her work, but instructed her to go into the caves and wake the spirits.




Now, using the logic and reason that science has taught me, I might deduce that if all these peoples from all over hell and high water have a similar theme, it might be possible ... just maybe ... that there is some truth behind it. [just like every culture tells of a great flood] It is not, however, possible to throw it in a pitre dish and find out. And it certainly doesn't tell me if I smoke crack, blow my neighbor, burn the flag, run around naked and scream the F bomb, that I'm going to burn in eternal hell with a fiery demon fudge packing me with a pitchfork.

 

[Silver]

You've got to be ****ing kidding me. Most of the world still lives in poverty. The rule of science has given us...

Nuclear weapons
Chemical weapons
Gas chambers
Biological weapons

We're so much better off! More bombs drop from the sky than blessings.

I expect better from you than inverted bigotry.

And yet our average lifespan still pushes a lot higher than it did in the Dark Ages. We are praying harder? I guess Shinto works better than Jesus then, looking at average lifespans. You really think that the human condition was better off in the Dark Ages?

Most of the world still lives in poverty because a self-proclaimed Christian nation that for the most part hasn't read it's own holy book with a small percentage of the world's population sucks up most of the resources and then pats itself on the back because God has blessed it so well.

But, that isn't the point here. The point is you have no idea what you're talking about. None. At all. Zero. You also need to reread your Hawking. He doesn't exactly compose a creationist theory of the universe in there...unless you're smoking copious amounts of crack while you're reading it, perhaps. He entertains that the idea of a prime mover is possible. I do that on occasion as well. Since there is no evidence of that, it remains what it is, idle speculation.

 

[spincrazy]

When it all comes down to it, the bible (no, I won't capitalize it) is just the worlds bestest bestseller. The theory of Dogs came about only to explain, at the time, the unexplainable. Continuing down this vein of thought, persecuting those that believe different than you, and continually trying to recruit new members to your sect is archaic and harmful to the worlds people.

Religion has no place in government and I want todays children learning concrete things, not myth. Let them pursue other learnings on their own.

Religion, regardless of which one you subscribe to, account for a good 50% of all problems in this world and always have.

 

[spincrazy]

PS, I'm all for an outright war on any and all of the "religious warlords". Don't think abortion is right, and going to kill someone because you believe it so much? I'm for bombing your church. If someone was to go after W purely because of his stance on religion, go for it. It does not belong. Catholics hate the gays? Why shouldn't they fight back and burn the vatican? Against Dog? No. Against you.

 

[fluff]

Here's some great creation stories. You think we would ever get around to F=MA if we had to teach these as well?

The Blessing Seed
God creates man and woman and assigns them a special duty that is also a special gift, "You will care for everything on earth. Listen for the song that I sang at the beginning. My song is in everything and it will help you to learn and to care." When Man and Woman eat of the Tree of Life, instead of punishing them God leads them to the four paths: wonder, emptiness, making and coming home. From now on they will have the blessing seed within them to spread through the world.

Apache Creation Story
In the beginning nothing existed, no earth, no sky, no sun, no moon, only darkness was everywhere. Suddenly, from the darkness emerged a thin disc, one side yellow and the other side white, appearing suspended in midair. Within the disc sat a small bearded man, the Creator, the One Who Lives Above.

California Yokut Creation Story
A Great Flood had occurred upon Earth long, long ago. While Earth was still covered with water, there were no living creatures upon the land. Then out of the sky one day glided an enormous Eagle, with a black Crow riding upon its back, searching for a place to light. Around and around Eagle flew until he discovered a projecting tree stump, or what appeared to be a stump, upon which he landed to rest. There was a home at last upon the flat surface which was amply large enough for Eagle and Crow to roost upon.

Comanche Creation Story
One day the Great Spirit collected swirls of dust from the four directions in order to create the Comanche people. These people formed from the earth had the strength of mighty storms. Unfortunately, a shape-shifting demon was also created and began to torment the people. The Great Spirit cast the demon into a bottomless pit. To seek revenge the demon took refuge in the fangs and stingers of poisonous creatures and continues to harm people every chance it gets."

Washington Chelan Indians
Long, long ago, the Creator, the Great Chief Above, made the world. Then he made the animals and the birds and gave them their names--Coyote, Grizzly Bear, Deer, Fox, Eagle, the four Wolf Brothers, Magpie, Bluejay, Hummingbird, and all the others. When he had finished his work, the Creator called the animal people to him. "I am going to leave you," he said. "But I will come back. When I come again, I will make human beings. They will be in charge of you." The Great Chief returned to his home in the sky, and the animal people scattered to all parts of the world.

Mik'Maq Creation
After the world was created and after the animals, birds, and plants were placed on the surface, Gisoolg caused a bolt of lightening to hit the surface of Ootsitgamoo. This bolt of lightning caused the formation of an image of a human body shaped out of sand. It was Glooscap who was first shaped out of the basic element of the Mik'Maq world, sand. Gisoolg unleashed another bolt of lightening which gave life to Glooscap, but yet he could not move. He was stuck to the ground only to watch the world go by and Nisgam travel across the sky everyday. Glooscap watched the animals, the birds ,and the plants grow and pass around him. He asked Nisgam to give him freedom to move about the Mik'Maq world.

Mexico Creator
The Telleriano-Remensis and Florentine codices declare that Quetzalcoatl, as great artificer, ‘formed’ and ‘molded’ the first human beings in his image and that only he, and no other god, had a human body.

Aborigine Creation Myth
There was a time when everything was still. All the spirits of the earth were asleep, or almost all. The great Father of All Spirits was the only one awake. Gently he awoke the Sun Mother. As she opened her eyes, a warm ray of light spread out towards the sleeping earth. The Father of All Spirits said to the Sun Mother, "Mother, I have work for you. Go down to the Earth and awake the sleeping spirits. Give them forms." The Sun Mother glided down to Earth, which was bare at the time and began to walk in all directions and everywhere she walked plants grew. After returning to the field where she had begun her work the Mother rested, well pleased with herself. The Father of All Spirits came and saw her work, but instructed her to go into the caves and wake the spirits.




Now, using the logic and reason that science has taught me, I might deduce that if all these peoples from all over hell and high water have a similar theme, it might be possible ... just maybe ... that there is some truth behind it. [just like every culture tells of a great flood] It is not, however, possible to throw it in a pitre dish and find out. And it certainly doesn't tell me if I smoke crack, blow my neighbor, burn the flag, run around naked and scream the F bomb, that I'm going to burn in eternal hell with a fiery demon fudge packing me with a pitchfork.

Did that take long?

 

[fluff]

And yet our average lifespan still pushes a lot higher than it did in the Dark Ages. We are praying harder? I guess Shinto works better than Jesus then, looking at average lifespans. You really think that the human condition was better off in the Dark Ages?

It's pushing it somewhat to go back to the dark ages, and perhaps life expectancy in some places was higher then than it is now - Africa doesn't seem to have benefited so much, or do they not qualify as 'our'?

Most of the world still lives in poverty because a self-proclaimed Christian nation that for the most part hasn't read it's own holy book with a small percentage of the world's population sucks up most of the resources and then pats itself on the back because God has blessed it so well.

It must be nice to blame the Christian right for everything.

But, that isn't the point here. The point is you have no idea what you're talking about. None. At all. Zero. You also need to reread your Hawking. He doesn't exactly compose a creationist theory of the universe in there...unless you're smoking copious amounts of crack while you're reading it, perhaps. He entertains that the idea of a prime mover is possible. I do that on occasion as well. Since there is no evidence of that, it remains what it is, idle speculation.

Hmm, oddly enough I reread Hawking last week, did you? As I said he mentions it, he does not promote it. You clearly have no idea what you or I are talking about (or you are simply having trouble reading). I do not believe in the creation theory, in case you've not been paying attention, but I believe that keeping kids ignorant of what creationists believe is foolish in the extreme. Do you intend to brainwash your children or to teach them to think for themselves? Think hard about that one, because you just might be fooling yourself.

As far as I am concerned this is a philosophical and moral question which places it far above science in my opinion as it is morals and ethics that dictate how we use knowledge and power and the advances of science.

 

[Toshi]

people-who-would-have-creationism-taught-in-public-schools, would you have the mormon and scientologist (not to mention even wackier cults) viewpoints put forth for 8th graders to digest?