About the latest and the final iteration of the Dark Owl DH frame?Well thanks for that Mr. Killjoy...now what in the hell are we going to talk about over the next few weeks before Lourdes
An even bigger tantrum?
- Thread starter Sandwich
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i wonder if there's any relation between this, the higher than usual amount of travel for an enduro bike, and sag that's on the low end of the spectrum....
You are forgetting that they managed to do all this with a Mtn Cycles San Andreas swing arm.
Pumping and preloading transitions.
*yawn*
Another bike engineer who thinks mountainbikes are 300lb motorcycles.
that;s one thing I haven't figured out. There's a lot of potential for innovation in designs like this just in terms of packaging. Why not stick a shock in that tube and use it for something? why have just an empty tube that needs to be kept clean, lubricated, and in good shape that's just empty?
the spot was another one. there's a carbon link spot bike that uses a carbon plate as a leaf spring...why not go whole hog and use the leaf spring in its entirety and run an empty coil shock? that would be innovative...but instead it just defeats a patent and you're still stuck with a regular shock.
the spot was another one. there's a carbon link spot bike that uses a carbon plate as a leaf spring...why not go whole hog and use the leaf spring in its entirety and run an empty coil shock? that would be innovative...but instead it just defeats a patent and you're still stuck with a regular shock.
Yep. Polygamist
Didn't RC post essentially the same article when da Tantrump came out?
Anyway, why go all Euler? Lots of current suspension systems seem to have slenderness ratios that are greater than 2x what that yolk setup have (cough chainstays). Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but I'm just trying to understand where the obvious deficiency is in relation to buckling? Is it related to increased shock bushing or seal wear?
Don't have a horse in this race. Curious like others to see pedal kickback numbers considering the reduced damping claims and what looked like increased AS as the suspension got deeper in travel (viewed on cell phone). This design comes from someone that was involved with Klein (Mantra) so maybe they want to use the rider mass as a significant contributor to the overall suspension system in conjunction with pedaling forces. I'd hope that a system would have reduced damping if AS increased through travel.shock yoke longer than the shock
Anyway, why go all Euler? Lots of current suspension systems seem to have slenderness ratios that are greater than 2x what that yolk setup have (cough chainstays). Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but I'm just trying to understand where the obvious deficiency is in relation to buckling? Is it related to increased shock bushing or seal wear?
MUD NO MOREWell thanks for that Mr. Killjoy...now what in the hell are we going to talk about over the next few weeks before Lourdes
Indeed he did. This and wanktrum are second-comings of RC's bros from the "old school", pre-dating leverage curve graphs!
Finally, another suspension design to talk about!
Looks interesting. Based on the AS/AR graph posted in the Pinkbike article, AS increases throughout travel, which is pretty similar to how I design things.
Having the AS value increase with suspension travel (a positive slope) means that the overall wheel rate will increase when pedalling (in proportion with the slope of the AS curve, and how hard you are pedalling). This link explains why. This means that under acceleration, the extra mass on the back wheel is supported appropriately by a stiffer wheel rate, which means the suspension maintains a more constant natural frequency under a variety of pedalling conditions.
The catch with this, is that having so much AS deeper in travel causes the suspension to tug on the cranks when pedalling through the rough stuff. This could be overcome by having a rearward axle path and an idler pulley, but someone else is already onto that
A regular single-pivot design is capable of achieving this type of AS curve too, so I'd be surprised if you couldn't replicate the same kinematics on a much simpler design. Perhaps you might not be able to achieve the same variation throughout the range of gears... perhaps someone can have a play and report back? I don't think that this elaborate design is necessary to dodge any existing single-pivot patents.
I'm not surprised it uses less damping than 'normal', as I'd expect it to pedal fairly well. Although it's hard to understand what "60% less damping than a standard shock" actually means, because damping isn't just one number. I assume they're referring to the compression side only (FEWER SHIMZ!).
FWIW, when I do a Shockwiz tuning session with customers on the Craftworks ENR, it always ends up the LSC is fully open, and HSC is minimal.
For those wanting to model it in Linkage, a sliding link is kinematically equivalent to an infinitely long link between the swingarm and front triangle. It could be modelled as a very long link (VLL™), say a couple of metres long, with one end of the VLL pivoting on the front triangle exactly where the 'male slider' member currently pivots on the front triangle, and the other end of the VLL pivoting on the swingarm member, up high and far forward (or down low and far back), so that the the line of the VLL is perpendicular to the 'male slider link'. Getting this exactly perpendicular is pretty critical to getting accurate results, and it’s quite hard to see the angle of the sliding link.
The short link can be modelled as normal.
Leverage looks like it’ll be moderately progressive throughout travel.
Exactly. If only there was a way to have stiffer wheel rate for vertical rider inputs like pumping/jumping etc, and a softer wheel rate for more rearward terrain impacts like big rocks/roots etc...
Someone should come up with a bike with a rearward axle path! @troy, you should get onto this rearward axle path concept!
Haha we talked about it with Troy. I was super tired when I found it but it all seemed to me like a fancy way to do what already exists.Finally, another suspension design to talk about!
Looks interesting. Based on the AS/AR graph posted in the Pinkbike article, AS increases throughout travel, which is pretty similar to how I design things.
Having the AS value increase with suspension travel (a positive slope) means that the overall wheel rate will increase when pedalling (in proportion with the slope of the AS curve, and how hard you are pedalling). This link explains why. This means that under acceleration, the extra mass on the back wheel is supported appropriately by a stiffer wheel rate, which means the suspension maintains a more constant natural frequency under a variety of pedalling conditions.
The catch with this, is that having so much AS deeper in travel causes the suspension to tug on the cranks when pedalling through the rough stuff. This could be overcome by having a rearward axle path and an idler pulley, but someone else is already onto that
A regular single-pivot design is capable of achieving this type of AS curve too, so I'd be surprised if you couldn't replicate the same kinematics on a much simpler design. Perhaps you might not be able to achieve the same variation throughout the range of gears... perhaps someone can have a play and report back? I don't think that this elaborate design is necessary to dodge any existing single-pivot patents.
I'm not surprised it uses less damping than 'normal', as I'd expect it to pedal fairly well. Although it's hard to understand what "60% less damping than a standard shock" actually means, because damping isn't just one number. I assume they're referring to the compression side only (FEWER SHIMZ!).
FWIW, when I do a Shockwiz tuning session with customers on the Craftworks ENR, it always ends up the LSC is fully open, and HSC is minimal.
For those wanting to model it in Linkage, a sliding link is kinematically equivalent to an infinitely long link between the swingarm and front triangle. It could be modelled as a very long link (VLL™), say a couple of metres long, with one end of the VLL pivoting on the front triangle exactly where the 'male slider' member currently pivots on the front triangle, and the other end of the VLL pivoting on the swingarm member, up high and far forward (or down low and far back), so that the the line of the VLL is perpendicular to the 'male slider link'. Getting this exactly perpendicular is pretty critical to getting accurate results, and it’s quite hard to see the angle of the sliding link.
The short link can be modelled as normal.
Leverage looks like it’ll be moderately progressive throughout travel.
Exactly. If only there was a way to have stiffer wheel rate for vertical rider inputs like pumping/jumping etc, and a softer wheel rate for more rearward terrain impacts like big rocks/roots etc...
Someone should come up with a bike with a rearward axle path! @troy, you should get onto this rearward axle path concept!
Though I'm still worried that another company releases a 180mm bike and their press release focuses more on pedaling and uphill capability than on downhill traction. I really feel like it's 2005 and we're back to drooling over the VP-Free.
this reminds me of 1997, when manufacturers would come up with wonky ass claims based on limited scientific evidence just because people didn't know any better. "Fully active" vs. "Semi-active" became a thing, and I'm not sure that anybody really knows what defined the two terms. Suspension was not a quantifiable object but a magic, pretend thing made by a guy in a garage with a welder and a miter.
Nowadays (thanks largely to DW) we have the ability to geometrically determine the performance of a frame in silico and have a general idea of how it will perform even before Yan-Ping fires up his welder. This has been working pretty well and we've gotten a lot of bikes without bullshit and with pretty good performance. People even are starting to realize you can get good performance out of a single pivot.
It seems that this has created a void for the bullshit artists and now there is a space for them to craft weird designs that, when quantified, mystically fall outside of the realm of quantifiable performance. Guy says that this design is different because the forces occur in 3d rather than 2d...but that's true for all suspension designs, and we can compare them against one another in the same manner.
This bike could be a great design, and I personally like the swingarm/elevated chainstay design, but the silly bullshit that they're trying to foist just cracks me up.
Nowadays (thanks largely to DW) we have the ability to geometrically determine the performance of a frame in silico and have a general idea of how it will perform even before Yan-Ping fires up his welder. This has been working pretty well and we've gotten a lot of bikes without bullshit and with pretty good performance. People even are starting to realize you can get good performance out of a single pivot.
It seems that this has created a void for the bullshit artists and now there is a space for them to craft weird designs that, when quantified, mystically fall outside of the realm of quantifiable performance. Guy says that this design is different because the forces occur in 3d rather than 2d...but that's true for all suspension designs, and we can compare them against one another in the same manner.
This bike could be a great design, and I personally like the swingarm/elevated chainstay design, but the silly bullshit that they're trying to foist just cracks me up.
Seatstays are fine because they are designed/tested to be put in column loading from the start.
Shocks are not tested (by us anyways) with a yoke on them, much less a yoke that doubles the eye to eye length. Increased bushing/seal/damper body wear is one concern. I worry about this junction being strong enough to resist buckling at bottom out:
Can someone please make an integrated fender for forks please!
Hugh, from the images at bikerumor it seems to me that the sliding mechanism sits right between the lower attachment point on the front triangle and the pivot of the shock yoke on the swingarm. So that angle is relatively clear at top out. When the rear is compressed it changes its angle relative to the front triangle. How can that be modeled correctly?
i wonder if you could stick a can of easy cheese in there so that on every hard compression, a little string of orange squirts out and into your riding buddies' face.
Relax, lizard ppl will come up with gazillion new standards in a couple of months, each incompatible with another ofc.Seatstays are fine because they are designed/tested to be put in column loading from the start.
Shocks are not tested (by us anyways) with a yoke on them, much less a yoke that doubles the eye to eye length. Increased bushing/seal/damper body wear is one concern. I worry about this junction being strong enough to resist buckling at bottom out:
Or they will order some longer shocks from Curnutt
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So far I am happy with this one http://www.rockguardz.com/mudguardz/rockguardz-mudguardz-pg450.html
I found a bit long at first sight but it is very effective and doesn't move. Clearence is good too on my Yari with Magic Mary so that it should be good on a 36.
Shut your mouth!... but did nothing with the fact there's a big black shaft moving in and out an orifice.
No no no! I have 2 threaded holes in my 36 that a fucking fender should bolt to! Why tease me with that shit and not follow thru!!!
P.S
I have a fender Velcroed on my fork and it works. I'm just want a bolt on.