[dante]

Thoughts? I have always thought that keeping these types of weapons out of the hands of criminals, terrorists (foreign and home-grown), etc, was a good thing. Can only imagine what could've happened at Columbine with AK-47s instead of the Tech-9/shotguns they had. I would've imagined this to be a HUGE issue during the election, yet the media is still focusing on whether Kerry bled during one of his 3 purple hearts or whether he was under "intense fire" or not for one of the other ones...

:mumble:

 

[N8 v2.0]

Thoughts? I have always thought that keeping these types of weapons out of the hands of criminals, terrorists (foreign and home-grown), etc, was a good thing. Can only imagine what could've happened at Columbine with AK-47s instead of the Tech-9/shotguns they had. I would've imagined this to be a HUGE issue during the election, yet the media is still focusing on whether Kerry bled during one of his 3 purple hearts or whether he was under "intense fire" or not for one of the other ones...

:mumble:

I think you mean Assault "Style" weapons... you know, the ones that 'look' scary.

 

[Toshi]

pistols have no use except for killing other people, why not ban them, too?

 

[s1ngletrack]

I think you mean Assault "Style" weapons... you know, the ones that 'look' scary.

Thanks N8 - someone had to point out the obvious. Maybe we should work on getting rid of those scary looking studded rocker belts and spiked rings while we're at it - Surely this would decrease violent crime almost as much as that long overdue ban on butterfly knives - thank God we don't have to worry about being attacked with butterfly knives anymore.

BTW - AK's are generally semi-auto - no different really from a Tec 9 - except that one might be a hair more accurate at distances over 20 meters

 

[Slugman]

The bigger issue is not about the laws, but the enforcement. I'll try to find the link, but here was report a few weeks back (might have been a local report) that enforcement was at like 25% (not sure if that meant 25% of the laws or 25% of the places...). So what are laws/bans going to do if they are not enforced/monitored in the first place?

 

[Westy]

Didn't the ban just force the removal of bi-pods and bayonette lugs and large capacity magazines? Like N8 said the ban just got rid of scary looking guns and limited the number of rounds in a mag. Of course manufacturers made about a 30 year supply of large cap mags before the ban so they are easily and legaly available. The law is just a waste of paper and legislative time.

 

[s1ngletrack]

True - the truth of the matter is that such laws, unless you live in a police state, are completely ineffective - what criminal is going to turn in his gun? I wouldn't turn in the 1 gun that I own, despite the fact that I have not pulled it from it's case in 4 years, have no illusions about my house being safer (quite the opposite - statistically), and do not suffer from a "tough guy complex" - nor am I a criminal (unless I'm behind the wheel)

 

[Lexx D]

I think you mean Assault "Style" weapons... you know, the ones that 'look' scary.

Sure I'll call them "style". My question is why would you need that "style" to hunt a dear? Like crazed rednecks need an ak with a 30 round banana clip to bring bambi back to the trailer.

"Guns are for the weak, the strong don't need guns" Henry Rollins :evil:

 

[Toshi]

Sure I'll call them "style". My question is why would you need that "style" to hunt a dear? Like crazed rednecks need an ak with a 30 round banana clip to bring bambi back to the trailer.

"Guns are for the weak, the strong don't need guns" Henry Rollins :evil:

given that full-auto has been illegal for quite some time now (3 shot burst is allowed, methinks) it's a matter of preference. sort of like how many of us choose to buy expensive road bikes or decked out dh rigs when in reality a much cheaper and simpler bike would suffice.

 

[LordOpie]

as soon as I get my cycling habit under control, I'm gonna buy a gun or three. I don't know how y'all afford so many sports. Hell, before I buy a gun, I'll buy some tele skis.

 

[LordOpie]

...a much cheaper and simpler bike would suffice.

sometimes, it's like I don't even know who you are any more.

 

[Lexx D]

given that full-auto has been illegal for quite some time now (3 shot burst is allowed, methinks) it's a matter of preference. sort of like how many of us choose to buy expensive road bikes or decked out dh rigs when in reality a much cheaper and simpler bike would suffice.

No you can't compare the two. You'll never need a 30 round clip for hunting, never! You can't say it's preference since an AK isn't the most accurate or reliable weapon. The guns are made to put multiple rounds out. While it may be a semiauto. If you've ever shot an M-16 or an AK you can tell from the first pull of the trigger that it's not for a deer. I like to target shoot just as much as the next guy but i don't feel we need anything like this being produced.

 

[Toshi]

sometimes, it's like I don't even know who you are any more.

my point being that i'm for freedom of choice in both, even tho i'd never own an ak-47 myself. i'd rather watch rambo on dvd.

 

[Westy]

Most places I know of it would be illegal to hunt most game with the small rounds available in an "Assault" style weapon, even then hunting laws typically limit magazines to 3 or 5 rounds. Hunting is not about firepower.

 

[s1ngletrack]

3 round burst is not legal for the average joe, and this configuration was implemented - from my understanding - by the armed services to prevent GI's from burning through ammo by holding down the trigger while panicked during a firefight (though I'm no authority on the matter, and could be wrong), the only difference between an AR and the Mini 14 (which is used legitimately by many of our grandpas for hunting) is the fact that the AR looks scarier - in fact "assault style" accessories, folding stocks, hi cap magazines, flash suppressors, etc.. are much easier and cheaper to find for the Mini 14 (which itself is sold at Gart Bros, K-Mart, etc...). Personally, I would MUCH rather spend my hard earned cash on bikes/ parts, but that doesn't mean that I will blindly buy into the hype about outlawing guns simply because they look spooky, or have bayonets, or any other of the B.S. red herrings used to polarize the voting population around election time.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I love my DCM M1...

 

[Westy]

I want one of these:heart:

.50 BMG, perfectly legal under the ban, doesn't even look scary. I need a good anti-vehicle round to protect myself from cars while on road rides.

 

[s1ngletrack]

I dunno - it looks like something that would be used by a serial sniper in the movies to me - kind spooooooookkkkkyyyyyy wwwwhhhhhooooooeeeeooooooo

 

[stanky_dlx]

No you can't compare the two. You'll never need a 30 round clip for hunting, never! You can't say it's preference since an AK isn't the most accurate or reliable weapon. The guns are made to put multiple rounds out. While it may be a semiauto. If you've ever shot an M-16 or an AK you can tell from the first pull of the trigger that it's not for a deer. I like to target shoot just as much as the next guy but i don't feel we need anything like this being produced.

If you've every spent a week helping a friend's uncle shooting prairie dogs you start wishing for things like a beta mag (100 round drum for a m16/ar15)

Actually the AK is reasonably accurate. No it wouldn't win at Camp Perry but I don't want to be on the receiving end of it at any ANY distance. It's plenty accurate for shots out to 300 yards. Speaking of which the AK round the 7.62x39mm is ballistically similar to a 30-30, which is more than enough for deer hunting at short to medium ranges. The AK is also KNOWN for it's reliability. Kalashnikov designed it with tolerances on the loose side to insure dirt and crud would not cause the weapon to malfunction. It is reliable in the harshest of conditions and can go for months, possibly years before you would need to clean it. Think that 12 year old kid in africa toting an AK knows how to even has the tools to clean his AK?

Now the AR on the other hand AR's do win at Camp Perry. So it can be accurate. As far as a hunting gun it's a pretty darn good small game/varmint rifle. The .223/5.56 is good for prairie dogs, rabbits, coyotes, etc.

Gee I guess you can compare the two!

 

[Archslater]

Ironically, an Indianapolis Police Officer was gunned down last week by a man with an SKS assault rifle. The man was previously diagnosed as having schizophrenia, and his guns were taken away last year, only to be returned to him because the police had no legal ground to keep them. The man killed his mother, and then went on a rampage, shooting up the neigborhood, injuring 4 IPD officers, and killing one.

The conservative local press keeps publishing articles and editorials pleading for change of social policy regarding mental illness, but the fact that Indiana has some of the loosest gun laws in the nation is barely mentioned. Even the owner of the biggest gun store chain in town have been quoted as saying that the law is ridiculous and assault weapons should be banned.

NRA has scarry influence in this state.....

 

[Toshi]

Archslater, that's a horrible tragedy for the policeman's family. however, what does it having to be an "assault rifle" have to do with anything? from what scarce evidence i've been able to find it seems that this weapon, which "looked like an ak-47" ( very reliable coming from an ignorant reporter) was a semi-auto. http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=indianapolis+assault+rifle+automatic&btnG=Search+News .

 

[s1ngletrack]

Archslater, that's a horrible tragedy for the policeman's family. however, what does it having to be an "assault rifle" have to do with anything? from what scarce evidence i've been able to find it seems that this weapon, which "looked like an ak-47" ( very reliable coming from an ignorant reporter) was a semi-auto. http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=indianapolis+assault+rifle+automatic&btnG=Search+News .

C'mon Toshi - It's obvious that this guy wouldn't have been schizophrenic had he not had access to "assualt style" weapons -sheesh.... gotta explain everything to some people.

 

[Lexx D]

If you've every spent a week helping a friend's uncle shooting prairie dogs you start wishing for things like a beta mag (100 round drum for a m16/ar15)

Can't say i have. I'm not on some anti-gun rant. All i'm saying is that i don't think it's needed, not even for a that good old fun of mowing down prairie dogs. What i'm saying is you can shoot those prairie dogs with a 30-30 so again where's the need for a 100 round clip. Is it being lazy? Yeah those blood thirsty prairie dogs are sure to kill you if you don't get that first 100 rounds out fast and scare them.

Hell I love shooting, the last time I went we shot off 800 rounds in a matter of hours, ak-47, Daewoo M-16, SkS, and a glock 45. Hell we just shot cans in my buddies back yard. Good time but you'll never convince me that the general public needs access to "assault type" rifles. You can spout all your NRA "it's just like a hunting rifle only looks cooler" bull****. Fact is within 15 minutes online you can google and find a easy way to make an AK fully auto(It's the removal of like one little spring I've seen it done). Sorry but the only people who would need anything like this is the police.

 

[Lexx D]

Here's the link to what went down a couple years back in my town.
BTW, I went to school with his younger brother and i was 100 feet away at my friends house during the whole thing. And i know the cop that got shot, He was shielding a couple girls who walked out of a bar at the wrong time.
crazy fuker in my town
Thankfully nobody was killed. i just think it's a good example of why "normal" people don't need guns like this.

 

[s1ngletrack]

"The weapon, a legally purchased, armor-piercing rifle, dangled on a strap hanging from his massive neck. He wore a bullet-proof vest.
Police say his targets were cops."

" In the gray, drizzly morning after, stunned witnesses huddled under storefronts. They stammered stories of gunfire in the night, bullets ripping through walls and the foul-mouthed threats of an elusive, rifle-wielding terrorist."

Okay Lexx D - I understand where you're coming from, and why you feel the way you do one the issue - but I've just got to throw this in - someone at the local paper needs to tell the writer that he needs to lay off of the Jim Beam and Dirty Harry movies while he is writing any uh, "news". I was waiting for him to start chiming in with the internal dialouge going on in the gunman's head - "No way these PIGS will EVER take me alive" thought the crazed gunman, sweat and blood dripping over his taught pectorals as he spewed hot death from his gun.

C'mon dude - it's a NEWS story - not something written for SOF

 

[Lexx D]

Yeah, that writer was laying it on pretty thick.
Again i think shooting and the right to own firearms is a freedom we need. I just don't see the need for assault rifles(as much fun as they are ).

It takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch or something like that. Oh and the thing about the weapon hanging off his massive neck......no joke, I watched him play football in high school, he was one scary mofo.

 

[s1ngletrack]

True.

 

[Archslater]

Archslater, that's a horrible tragedy for the policeman's family. however, what does it having to be an "assault rifle" have to do with anything? .

Seems like being an assault rifle has everything to do with it. The various articles I read in the paper all confirmed that it was an SKS assault rifle. I am not a gun expert and won't get into an argument on semantics regarding what the law constitutes as an "assault style weapon". I agree the way the law is written makes little sense. It is likely a safe assumption that he would have done far less damage with a semi-auto hunting rifle or handgun. Instead he was walking around the neigborhood spraying down every police car in sight, from all reports.

Sadly, police show up in these scenario's armed with only small handguns. They had no chance until SWAT showed up later.

It just doesn't make sense to me that any nut can show up at a gun show and walk out with a fully automatic weapon (as I understand the law).

Original Article:

http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/171264-1254-092.html

 

[s1ngletrack]

Seems like being an assault rifle has everything to do with it. The various articles I read in the paper all confirmed that it was an SKS assault rifle. I am not a gun expert and won't get into an argument on semantics regarding what the law constitutes as an "assault style weapon". I agree the way the law is written makes little sense. It is likely a safe assumption that he would have done far less damage with a semi-auto hunting rifle or handgun. Instead he was walking around the neigborhood spraying down every police car in sight, from all reports.

Sadly, police show up in these scenario's armed with only small handguns. They had no chance until SWAT showed up later.

It just doesn't make sense to me that any nut can show up at a gun show and walk out with a fully automatic weapon (as I understand the law).

Original Article:

http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/171264-1254-092.html

Don't take this personally - but you do not know what you are talking about. It is not possible, in any state, for anyone to walk into a gun show, shop, or otherwise, and walk out with a fully auto gun.

Any semi auto can be modified so that it is fully auto - it's just a matter of how readily available instructions (or know how) are. This includes many rifles that are far from being considered assault rifles.

Why so unthinkable that we might address the root of the problem instead of outlawing crap like throwing stars, butterfly knives, scary looking guns, and other such silly distractions?

 

[Archslater]

Don't take this personally - but you do not know what you are talking about. It is not possible, in any state, for anyone to walk into a gun show, shop, or otherwise, and walk out with a fully auto gun.

Any semi auto can be modified so that it is fully auto - it's just a matter of how readily available instructions (or know how) are. This includes many rifles that are far from being considered assault rifles.
?

No offense taken..... I guess I was WAY off on this one. I will rephrase:

"It just doesn't make sense to me that any nut can show up at a gun show and walk out with a semi-automatic weapon without a background check. This can be converted to a fully automatic weapon with some info from a quick google search"

I feel MUCH safer now

 

[Toshi]

there are many different kinds of semi autos. banning "assault weapons" b/c they scare soccer moms with their looks is irrational.

 

[llkoolkeg]

It's nice to see that some others here have taken up the bloody flag.

The SKS is a cheap, former Eastern Bloc POS rifle of poor turn-of-the-century technology. They are so crappy, I wouldn't take one if you gave it to me. You can buy any bike at WalMart for more than an SKS costs. Assault rifle indeed...

As usual, the banners' arguments are replete with blatant mistruths already noted by others. I hate to beat the same dead horse, but the intent of the 2nd Amendment was not to protect hunting rights, but the rights of all people who would call themselves free.

 

[Lexx D]

there are many different kinds of semi autos. banning "assault weapons" b/c they scare soccer moms with their looks is irrational.

Yes but banning the high capacity clips and "assault type" rifles is a good thing. If i can purchase an AK with a 30 round clip, remove one little spring and Bam!.....A fully auto assault rifle, that's a problem. "But when i bought it it only looked scary" :nuts: It's a gun it's scary in the hands of the wrong person no matter how you look at it. It looks scary and can shoot rounds as fast as you pull the trigger.

The fact that two stories posted on this thread involve "scary looking" guns being shot at cops tells me we have a problem. If hank goes nuts and pulls out his trust 30-30 he's gonna have to reload more often than the guy putting 30 rounds into a cop car or crowd of people.

 

[Westy]

It's nice to see that some others here have taken up the bloody flag.

The SKS is a cheap, former Eastern Bloc POS rifle of poor turn-of-the-century technology. They are so crappy, I wouldn't take one if you gave it to me. You can buy any bike at WalMart for more than an SKS costs. Assault rifle indeed...

As usual, the banners' arguments are replete with blatant mistruths already noted by others. I hate to beat the same dead horse, but the intent of the 2nd Amendment was not to protect hunting rights, but the rights of all people who would call themselves free.

I have a russian made military model SKS, has the threaded barrel instead of the pinned and pressed one. It is very crude but shoots great considering how much it cost. I bought as cheap amusement while in college, we used to shoot at the universities abandoned ski hill. The old ski lift poles were spaced at nice 100 yard intervals. it was not hard to hit the 700 yard pole despite the cheap ammo and iron sights that apeared wider than the target in your field of view.

It has always been my view that the 2nd ammendment was written to protect the possibility of a popular armed rebellion against the government.

 

[s1ngletrack]

No offense taken..... I guess I was WAY off on this one. I will rephrase:

"It just doesn't make sense to me that any nut can show up at a gun show and walk out with a semi-automatic weapon without a background check. This can be converted to a fully automatic weapon with some info from a quick google search"

I feel MUCH safer now

I hear your concern - but the truth of the matter is that information is dangerous - say, for the sake of arguement that we do outlaw all guns, and somehow manage to round up each and every last gun floating around. Now what? I am not some neo-nazi militia member - I own 1 handgun that I have not shot in 4 years, I owned an AR15 for awhile (gasp) - but sold it because I decided that it wasn't really all that cool to have a thousand dollar piece of metal in my closet while I wanted a new frame so badly - now, with this said, and with it (I hope) clear that I am not some macho, gun toting, post apocalyptic warrior wannabe - I can build a firearm (no - not a safe one, but a firearm nonetheless) based on memory - from reading a portion of the Anarchist Cookbook (double gasp) twenty three years ago when I was nine - nevermind the improvised army munitions book sitting in my closet collecting dust (I recieved it when an uncle died - no, he wasn't a militia member either) which explains in very simply terms & pics, how to build fertilizer bombs, fashion shotguns using readily available materials, etc.... So you tell me - how much more exciting is it to drink beer when you are underage and not supposed to have it, or to taste the forbidden pleasures of the "hiking only" trail while out on a night ride - just because "You can't do that" - we live in the information age - the idea that we can turn back the clock and root out all of those threats that we are faced with weekly if not daily is a naive notion at best.

 

[Archslater]

As usual, the banners' arguments are replete with blatant mistruths already noted by others. I hate to beat the same dead horse, but the intent of the 2nd Amendment was not to protect hunting rights, but the rights of all people who would call themselves free.

I never mentioned banning weapons in my posts, but some better access control, or background checks for ALL at gun shows would be a good start.

We could argue the meaning of "A well regulated Militia" all day (funny how that part of the Amendment is usually left out by the NRA and the like), but the statistics tend to argue against the "I need a gun in my home to protect me" mentality.

A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in homicide, suicide, or accidental shooting, rather than to be used in self-defense.

 

[s1ngletrack]

Yes but banning the high capacity clips and "assault type" rifles is a good thing. If i can purchase an AK with a 30 round clip, remove one little spring and Bam!.....A fully auto assault rifle, that's a problem. "But when i bought it it only looked scary" :nuts: It's a gun it's scary in the hands of the wrong person no matter how you look at it. It looks scary and can shoot rounds as fast as you pull the trigger.

The fact that two stories posted on this thread involve "scary looking" guns being shot at cops tells me we have a problem. If hank goes nuts and pulls out his trust 30-30 he's gonna have to reload more often than the guy putting 30 rounds into a cop car or crowd of people.

If media coverage is a criteria for determining what should be considered a "problem", I sure am glad I live in CO - away from all of those killer Great Whites, it's called sensationalism

 

[Archslater]

I hear your concern - but the truth of the matter is that information is dangerous - say, for the sake of arguement that we do outlaw all guns, and somehow manage to round up each and every last gun floating around. Now what? I am not some neo-nazi militia member - I own 1 handgun that I have not shot in 4 years, I owned an AR15 for awhile (gasp) - but sold it because I decided that it wasn't really all that cool to have a thousand dollar piece of metal in my closet while I wanted a new frame so badly - now, with this said, and with it (I hope) clear that I am not some macho, gun toting, post apocalyptic warrior wannabe - I can build a firearm (no - not a safe one, but a firearm nonetheless) based on memory - from reading a portion of the Anarchist Cookbook (double gasp) twenty three years ago when I was nine - nevermind the improvised army munitions book sitting in my closet collecting dust (I recieved it when an uncle died - no, he wasn't a militia member either) which explains in very simply terms & pics, how to build fertilizer bombs, fashion shotguns using readily available materials, etc.... So you tell me - how much more exciting is it to drink beer when you are underage and not supposed to have it, or to taste the forbidden pleasures of the "hiking only" trail while out on a night ride - just because "You can't do that" - we live in the information age - the idea that we can turn back the clock and root out all of those threats that we are faced with weekly if not daily is a naive notion at best.

I agree that things can always be taken to extremes, but it is unlikely that someone on a drug bender, or raging against his wife, or a curious kid, etc... isn't going to quickly throw together a makeshift gun. There will always be exceptions of course.

My fiance is completing her dissertation on "Older Adult Handgun Suicide", so I could quote statistics all day long regarding the relationships between state access laws and violence/suicide - it is very clear.

 

[s1ngletrack]

I agree that things can always be taken to extremes, but it is unlikely that someone on a drug bender, or raging against his wife, or a curious kid, etc... isn't going to quickly throw together a makeshift gun. There will always be exceptions of course.

My fiance is completing her dissertation on "Older Adult Handgun Suicide", so I could quote statistics all day long regarding the relationships between state access laws and violence/suicide - it is very clear.

True - I just dont believe that it is realistic to think that banning certain types of guns is going to decrease crime, in fact, I believe the opposite - but I will agree that it probably would cut down significantly on gun related deaths. (not that I think that this make a compelling argument for doing so)

 

[Lexx D]

If media coverage is a criteria for determining what should be considered a "problem", I sure am glad I live in CO - away from all of those killer Great Whites, it's called sensationalism

It has nothing to do with the media. It's these "scary looking" guns that just so happen to be used for something other than the intended purpose. I'm in no way saying we need to outlaw guns, just that we need to outlaw certain types. Nobody can give a good reason other than fun(which i agree they are fun) to need an AK with a 30 round clip.