[armada]

and as a consumer why should i care for the lbs they newer did anything for me, they mostly dont have a clue about stuff, and they are on average 30% expensiver then online retelers so i think the cycling industrie is driven by the number of parts being bought not by the fact who sells them

 

[sanjuro]

Having worked for 3 ends of the spectrum, I'll have to say the online bike business is ruining the bicycle industry.

From the bicycle company end, the brand is being sold online for less than any LBS can compete with and the LBS can no longer compete and chooses to not carry that brand. The name brand loses value, but you are able to move product quicker without worrying about it sitting it your own warehouse.

From the online store end, you try to provide the best service over the phone or via e-mail, but the customer becomes the final decision maker in choosing what size bike and what components will work properly with their bicycle. In some cases the customer will void the warranty on the bicycle they purchase online by trying to assemble it themselves.

From the LBS end, you perceive the online store to be ruining your business because customers no longer want to make any special orders because they can buy it online and have it shipped directly to their house for less in a shorter period of time. The online store is more efficient and is able to buy items in bulk from the supplier, therefore getting a lower price than the LBS.

I think that's about it. Even though I currently work at a LBS I still buy online because just like everyone else I can get it online for cheaper and usually quicker too. In some cases the distributor that I use will not have an item in stock and it would have to be purchased online.

What do you mean, "online bike business is ruining the industry?"

Is Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo going out of business? Did Fox/RockShox/Marzocchi design any new forks for 2011?

Do you think the guy who lives 200 miles away from the closest LBS thinks mail order is a bad thing? What about the internet jockey who wants to compare the weight of 5 different rims before buying?

Ask Kona if they like online retailing. I noticed one of their frames on chainlove.com.

And what about other products like Hammer Nutrition. Does your shop carry their full line in case I want to try E-Caps?

The online retailers are killing the weak shops.

 

[Jim Mac]

I've seen what the Trek store pays for their Superflys before they put them on the floor for $5k. There is a ton of profit. Maybe not a ton for parts like a derailer or handlebars... but on actual bikes... there is a good deal of profit.

Maybe it's the shop I work in - we only have about a 20% markup; but then again we mainly deal in volume (ie Trek "hybrids", low end Trek road bikes, etc.).

 

[golgiaparatus]

The online retailers are killing the weak shops.

This is how I feel... they are killing shops whose business model is the same as it was in 1995.

 

[fr-kye]

Trek is actually one of the companies that works hard to support local shops thankfully, and does not give in to gray marketing of many on-line retailers.

Anyways, Bottom line...

No LBS, No Bicycle Industry

true. trek, specialized and santa cruz are the big shop brands, atleast what i see

 

[Bigdroptoflat]

You are all missing the point that you are the minority in the industry. 95% of people that ride bikes aren't interested in small parts and wrenching, they just want to buy a bike, have it serviced at the shop and ride.

It is also more profitable to sell 20 hybrids a day and spend 15 minutes each doing so than to sell small parts to someone who is probably going to install it themselves anyways and spend 45 minutes helping them compare the weights of a bunch of different parts

Selling hybrids is also what pays for the R & D of the high end bikes. Trek and Specialized could end their gravity programs tommorow and probably save more in r and d than they make selling those bikes.

 

[sanjuro]

You are all missing the point that you are the minority in the industry. 95% of people that ride bikes aren't interested in small parts and wrenching, they just want to buy a bike, have it serviced at the shop and ride.

It is also more profitable to sell 20 hybrids a day and spend 15 minutes each doing so than to sell small parts to someone who is probably going to install it themselves anyways and spend 45 minutes helping them compare the weights of a bunch of different parts

Selling hybrids is also what pays for the R & D of the high end bikes. Trek and Specialized could end their gravity programs tommorow and probably save more in r and d than they make selling those bikes.

You are totally right there.

The challenge is finding enthusiastic sales people who are willing to schlock crappy bikes.

The shop I was the sales manager I thought we did a good job. I made it clear about how to do it: keep it simple, be a little pushy in a nice way, and finish quick.

However, as I was reminded about a friend who just broke her wrist riding her used Crossroads, the shop has to exist.

Knowing her, her bike was probably in poor shape, so when she needed the brakes, it wasn't there.

If she had bought it new, someone could have fixed it regularly for free.

 

[insanitylevel9]

i usually try to buy all my parts at my lbs because there a really cool group of people they always help me out with the little things i need. being 17 years old most bike shops will talk me down like i don't know what i'm talking about and i usually end up knowing more (either that or they think im stealing stuff). i do buy somethings online don't get me wrong, but in reality it is just killing off the $hitty shops, the ones with a good client base will be fine. but at the end of the day the majority of the stuff i get for my bike comes from my lbs just because i always get good prices from them and there a cool group of people

 

[IH8Rice]

i do buy somethings online don't get me wrong, but in reality it is just killing off the $hitty shops

and thats a bad thing?

 

[insanitylevel9]

and thats a bad thing?

not at all

 

[loco-gringo]

I've seen what the Trek store pays for their Superflys before they put them on the floor for $5k. There is a ton of profit. Maybe not a ton for parts like a derailer or handlebars... but on actual bikes... there is a good deal of profit.

I'm going to say this clearly...you have no idea what you are talking about. There is not a ton of profit in a bike.

Take your Epic for instance...who do you think pays for all of the time they will spend taking care of warranty??? I'll tell you...it's the shop. Sometimes costs get passed along to consumers, but it's also part of the business. It's called a relationship. We build them with manufacturers, so you are taken care of. When you don't take care of that model, you don't get taken care of. It's really pretty simple.

 

[stevew]

"Are on-line retailers ruining the cycling industry or progressing it?"

they wake up every morning....and like the bicycle manufacturers...thank the noodly appendage for white folks with money falling out of their ass.

 

[demo 9]

Not supporting 1 over the other, but at my LBS, im a local, almost there every day, probably like to say i spend 5-10k a year there. Through the last 4-5 years, i have yet to get any prices less than retail. That said, i am on very good terms, and get no tax (which they say is a big deal) and i always (or nearly always) get booted to the front of the line for any service, which sometimes will be free. I order online more and more because of this, and not because i want to, but its just not cost effective paying 50% more for a product.I will happily let them build my wheels, and tune my X. I do think that because i am down there, and i spend so much money, i should be entitled to better pricing, its not like they are starving, and trust me, the owner is rolling in money. Its my opinion to buy online, because i just have to buy 1 chain, or tube off of your website, before i get a 20-30% coupon in the mail, that i can use to get 1k of stuff for 700-800, which would NEVER happen at the lbs. I order anything i can install myself on the internet, and anything i cant in the shop, within reason (both ways)

The online retailers arent helping, but i dont blame them entirely, think about it if it were you. "why should i quit my business to help out some other business" Some may call it greed, but think about if somebody told you tomorrow that you had to close your business because the general consensus of your competitors said you were bad for business. I would like to see the manufactures set bottom line price rules.

 

[Rip]

I'm very lucky in terms of LBS', have 3 good shops in the immediate area, there are 4, but the one if you need any help or advice on anything you literally have to go through flaming hoops in order to get someone's attention. Of the 3 good shops, one pretty much specializes in road/track stuff, one mountain bike, the third is a mix between the two. If I need a part in a pinch, I go to the 3rd location because they likely have the part that I need. If I need something for the track bike or something really obscure for the project that I'm working on, it's the first shop. Mountain bike related, shop number 2.

 

[demo 9]

Just for the hell of it, this is the rundown in my area

shop 1-will rape you with your money, boss is greedy as hell, prices that are above MSRP, labor rates that are asanine, and if the boss doesnt like you, expect to add another 2-400 to you road bike bill, yep thats right, you questioned his price, so your getting a full new drivetrain, since his insurance required it. (no, it really didnt) I used to work there, and it made me sick, i eventually quit. I watched my boss sell a super pricey road bike that came with wheels, take the wheels off, and sell them to the customer again. (of course the retard didnt know it came with wheels) Your local Huffy ****box you found in the trash, expect 400 to bring that puppy back to life, but it wont be mentioned you can get a new hardrock for 375. Hate this place, worked there, but got no discounts, and payed min wage for 2 years, worst shop in the area

shop 2-supposedly looses 20k a year, but the boss is supposedly filthy rich, does it as a hobby-complete wack job. The top mechanic there, was tought by me(which is utterly sad), they sell the nice brands of schwin, Raleigh, and recently acquired jamis!

shop 3-great shop, stocks DH parts, very skilled staff, and EXTREMELY NICE. Will bend over backwards and help you out, will also ride with you given the chance, great guys, prices are fair, room to haggle if your loyal. Met me and instantly asked me to ride for them, great guys.

shop 4- Super uppity road shop, top mechanic is a genious, way too smart for his bike shop job, but seems to just do his "daily grind" Wont get a price break, except for tax, but he helps fix my stuff extremely fast, and sometimes free of charge, guy is a genious, also computer nerd and will fix anything on his car-Einstein of all trades.

shop 5-meh, low end shop, nice guys, average prices, average turn around, nothing much to say, i dont go there, they arent the smartest, but they run a shop, its been there forever.

Thats some of the shops by my house, i can think of another 4-5, but dont know enough to properly talk about them.

 

[jimmydean]

I've seen what the Trek store pays for their Superflys before they put them on the floor for $5k. There is a ton of profit. Maybe not a ton for parts like a derailer or handlebars... but on actual bikes... there is a good deal of profit.

My understanding of the biz is the other way around. Most bikes seem to be between 30-50%, vs. parts are at least 100% on average markup. Granted, I have limited experience, but I have talked business with 2 good friends who both own shops and this is what they were telling me. Santiam Bikes makes WAY more money selling entry to mid level bikes and that allows them to afford to carry some of the nicer DH/FR types for the posers like me.

Shops make a bulk of their money on labor and consumables/parts/upgrades, not whole bike sales.

 

[loco-gringo]

I'm back to tell you...anyone that thinks bikes ever get more than 40 points is high. There are some brands that will get you 42 points, but your buy in at preseason is well over a million bucks.

Now...that margin pays salaries, property expense and stocks the stores, so you get what you want.

Then come loyalty...there is little and it's sad.

I read here that people think because they go somewhere they should get price breaks. At my shop, I'll work to be fair on special order parts or super high end wheels, but there comes a point that has to stop. I should keep my mouth shut, but the ignorance to the issue is astounding.

Thanks to all of you that understand small business. It's not to rape people, but the landscape says you have to have good profit. If not...well, you know what happens.

 

[demo 9]

I read here that people think because they go somewhere they should get price breaks.

Ill voice my opinion on this, i dont think that every part needs to be at cost for me to go there, and not even for the first year or two at all, but when i walk into your shop 3-4 days a week, and i ask how much will a complete Trek cost (2500) and you tell me you will swing me an awesome deal (2450) you will not get my business. Right or wrong, i believe if is the stores job to solicit the business. If i know i can buy that trek bike on the internet for 1750, you wont get the business, i dont mind getting charged full price on tubes/chain, but when i walk in to buy a set of i9 wheels, and get quoted 1300, while i can get them directly for less, and even less if i were to buy used, forget about it. You have to "earn" my business, especially if its going to be higher.

That said, i still think the solution is min price limits, although i am not necessarily happy if that happens.

Id be curious to know opinions on this, as i never owned a shop. Why do the owners (not all of them) say its the riders jobs to keep them in business, i here this alot at my LBS, and i have never understood it. (angry boss)-"it pisses me off that all the riders buy stuff online for half the price, they are supposed to support us and keep us in business" or similar. Me being a mechanic, and a rider primarily, no, its not, its YOUR business-you have to keep yourself in business, unless you buy a car a year to help ford, cut your grass twice a week for the landscapers, and get sick once a month for your doctor. I dont mean to come off as arrogant, but its your job, not everybody elses' job to keep you afloat. Why dont you buy whatever i am selling, i need to support my business too. hypocritical?

Isnt selling me a part that costs 500; for 550-650, better than selling me nothing at all? I know shipping can be expensive, but tell me to wait instead of telling me its goin to cost 975

 

[IH8Rice]

and i ask how much will a complete Trek cost (2500) and you tell me you will swing me an awesome deal (2450) you will not get my business. Right or wrong, i believe if is the stores job to solicit the business. If i know i can buy that trek bike on the internet for 1750, you wont get the business,

sure youll save big money buying a bike on the internet, but you also wont get a warranty on the frame.

 

[golgiaparatus]

I'm going to say this clearly...you have no idea what you are talking about. There is not a ton of profit in a bike.

Take your Epic for instance...who do you think pays for all of the time they will spend taking care of warranty??? I'll tell you...it's the shop. Sometimes costs get passed along to consumers, but it's also part of the business. It's called a relationship. We build them with manufacturers, so you are taken care of. When you don't take care of that model, you don't get taken care of. It's really pretty simple.

I was going to buy a team bike @ cost for $3500... a full carbon Superfly. Same bike was on the floor for $5500.

I mean, if the shop is paying around $3.5k and then selling the bike for $5.5k that's $2000 markup right? If I don't know what I'm talking about... then what am I missing?

As for warrantee... that's an incentive to buy... not a reason to justify a large markup. Regardless I'm not arguing that the markup is wrong... I was just stating that there is indeed a solid markup on bikes, as another poster said that the shops didn't make much on the bikes.

 

[demo 9]

sure youll save big money buying a bike on the internet, but you also wont get a warranty on the frame.

yes, i understand that, it was more of a factitious example, i never buy (new) frames online, however, i didnt buy the trek from the shop that would cut me a 50 dollar deal (and still charge tax) I feel like alot of people (specifically people in this community who know what they are buying/doing) know what it costs. I dont go into a shop with no idea what cost is, i always know beforehand, and if not, i know a "close" number. Do you really expect me to believe your markup on a complete DH bike is 100 bucks

I am really curious as to why alot of owners feel entitled to business and support from the customers they screw every day (again, not all shops, not all owners) I see the real bikers running to the internet to buy stuff (myself included) and the idiots running to kmart since they dont know any better, and still pay half the price.

 

[IH8Rice]

I mean, if the shop is paying around $35k and then selling the bike for $55k that's $2000 markup right? If I don't know what I'm talking about... then what am I missing?

math skillz?

 

[golgiaparatus]

math skillz?

Sorry, edited it right after... forgot to add the ".".

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

sure youll save big money buying a bike on the internet, but you also wont get a warranty on the frame.

say the bike is $2500.
whats are the chances of the bike needing warranty repairs? lets be pesimistic, and assume a 10% chance over its lifetime.
cost of warranty = $250.

If you can get the bike, even without a warranty, for $2250 you´d be breaking even.
at $1750, its $500 $cheaper.

i dont "support" my lbs. i am a client of theirs and my loyalty for them over other lbs, is because i like the people who work there, i trust them, i find their services and facilities of high quality and its location is convenient...

even though they arent the cheapest (actually, my lbs has a reputation for being a expensive toy-store for tri-geeks and old-balls) and my bike is probably one the few 3 or 4 fr/dh bikes sold/serviced regularly by them.

i go there because it makes practical and finantial sense to me.

i find their prices reasonable and the tech-service excellent. they service my bike twice a month, or every other ride during rainy season, and i`ve never had a problem with any of the bikes i ve taken there. i value that.

ive bought a fr/dh bike from them, a kids scott 12" bike for my nephew (ridiculously overpriced, but it was awesome) and many accesories, like helmets, their ridiculously overpriced clothing, backbacks, etc, etc....
i dont believe i "support" them. i dont drink that kool-aid... i just believe they have correctly earned my business, for their respectable business practices and workmanship... just like my favourite restaurant, or my favourite body-shop or any other business that stays afloat.

that being said, i´ve been floating around the owner like to vulture for the last few months to convince him to sell me a scott gambler dh10 framest he has had for like 2 years hanging on the wall for cost, which i estimate at 50% off... but so far ive only gotten 30% off msrp (which still makes it as expensive as a brand new santa cruz driver 8)....

 

[IH8Rice]

say the bike is $2500.
whats are the chances of the bike needing warranty repairs? lets be pesimistic, and assume a 10% chance over its lifetime.
cost of warranty = $250.

If you can get the bike, even without a warranty, for $2250 you´d be breaking even.
at $1750, its $500 $cheaper.

if that is your thinking, then no new product should come with a warranty. instead they should just lower the price instead of offering a warranty? car mfg's would love that idea

 

[Tetreault]

some shops are good some are bad.

The shop i've been a customer at my whole life is basically a one man show, he works hard, does good work, and is extremely friendly and happy. If he doesn't have what you want in stock, he will have it for you asap. EVERYONE that is a customer of his gets 10% of MRSP, that not a good guy discount, thats just his price. I've been a Loyal customer of his since the shop opened about 8 years ago 10% without question, and sometimes the good guy discount (25% of parts and accessories and information on closeouts so he can spread the savings to me)

Sadly since this shop is smaller with not a whole lot of capital he can't really afford to hire more employees, and a few years ago i needed a job and ended up working at another shop in town, figured any bike shop is better then some other ****ty retail job.

this shop is among the top 3 biggest dealers of cannondale, giant, norco, and marin in canada. Millions of dollars put out in spring for bookings, massive inventory, ran by pricks. No deals to anyone except the "good" guys, which are estentially the owners buddies, even people comming in buying an anthem carbon a spare set of wheels, sidi shoes, helmet, everything talking a $10,000 sale, no discount. Return customers for years, nothing. Even the employees got the shaft, they would not mention that companies like giant, norco ect have an employee pricing program (50% off retail), insted they would sell bikes to employees for cost plus 10%, bring in the bike with the EPP programs and then essentially mark them up 30% to sell to employees so that they could also make money. ****ty salaries, no increase in pay, everyone was disposable.

The first shop i mentioned is a customers shop, a place the people like. but you dont get rich this way

shop two is a business, they make money and don't relly care about the people.

thats how this stuff works

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

if that is your thinking, then no new product should come with a warranty. instead they should just lower the price instead of offering a warranty? car mfg's would love that idea

i´d gladly take a new car. no warranty for a 30% discount. heck, even 20% would make me consider it.

assuming the car if made by an established manufacturer, and comes from the same assembly line as those sold with a warranty and has been randomly chosen from the line, and is not an "industry first".

mail-order bike not sold as a "return", "blemished" or "demo" would be a rough equivalent... considering selling a bike like that under "brand new" would probably be illegal.

 

[Rip]

I'm back to tell you...anyone that thinks bikes ever get more than 40 points is high. There are some brands that will get you 42 points, but your buy in at preseason is well over a million bucks.

Now...that margin pays salaries, property expense and stocks the stores, so you get what you want.

Then come loyalty...there is little and it's sad.

I read here that people think because they go somewhere they should get price breaks. At my shop, I'll work to be fair on special order parts or super high end wheels, but there comes a point that has to stop. I should keep my mouth shut, but the ignorance to the issue is astounding.

Thanks to all of you that understand small business. It's not to rape people, but the landscape says you have to have good profit. If not...well, you know what happens.

I don't mind paying msrp on stuff, besides I don't like haggling.

 

[jdcamb]

I personally like to shoplift expensive items I can't afford. I haven't figured out how to virtually be able to do that yet.

 

[Jim Mac]

I personally like to shoplift expensive items I can't afford. I haven't figured out how to virtually be able to do that yet.

I once caught a guy trying to shoplift a 35c wire bead(!) tire - tried folding it under his sweatshirt...didn't work.

 

[C.P.]

In general, bike shops need to adopt the "no soup for you" customer service model...

 

[drkenan]

In general, bike shops need to adopt the "no soup for you" customer service model...

The ones around here have had that forever. That's why I don't go to the motherfvckers.

Edit: Some of them of course, not all.

 

[binary visions]

I read here that people think because they go somewhere they should get price breaks. At my shop, I'll work to be fair on special order parts or super high end wheels, but there comes a point that has to stop. I should keep my mouth shut, but the ignorance to the issue is astounding.

So, of course some people will think they deserve special treatment because they deign to support a shop, just like some shops think their poo don't smell. I don't agree with that - the local shops can't match online pricing and you don't deserve dealer cost just because you patronize a business.

On the other hand, I think a lot of people just expect the shop to build a relationship with them if they're a regular, reliable customer who spends a lot of money there. Sometimes that means throwing in a discount. Maybe not, there are a lot of ways to build relationships. I get that it's tough to run a small business.

However - let's use my example. I bought/was directly responsible for selling 5 bikes, a small mountain of accessories, a bunch of tools and and a steady flow of consumables. That makes me a better/more reliable source of income than the guy who bought a cruiser and was never seen again. I can get everything far cheaper online, so they need to offer incentive to shop there, and that incentive comes on the service/relationship side. Hell, a lot of it is just symbolic anyway. A free $5 can of tri-flow doesn't even come close to making up for the fact that I paid $20 more for a pair of tires. But it makes the customer feel good, and keeps the relationship intact.

I'm not going to be mad at a shop that doesn't want to give a little to get a little. But I don't have to shop there, either. The hybrids may be higher profit margin but it's the serious riders who bring in their family and friends to buy bikes, or destroy a couple thousand dollars a year worth of riding clothes/helmets/tubes/small parts.

 

[eaterofdog]

LOL at the people who want really cheap or free stuff. That's called sponsored.

 

[rockofullr]

Are on-line retailers ruining the cycling industry or progressing it?


Borders thinks so.

 

[IH8Rice]

Are on-line retailers ruining the cycling industry or progressing it?


Borders thinks so.

Blockbuster would be a better example.

 

[jimmydean]

LOL at the people who want really cheap or free stuff. That's called sponsored.

You too, can get sponsored.

 

[OGRipper]

Are on-line retailers ruining the cycling industry or progressing it?

Borders thinks so.

Nice.

"Ruining the industry" is a little dramatic. On-line sales are an extension of the old mail-order stuff that everyone predicted would destroy the retail end of the business 25 years ago. It hasn't happened and there are still plenty of shops around.

Online sales have, however, made it much harder to operate a high-end shop catering to serious and knowledgeable riders. But like others have said, the average bike customer is not serious and not looking for high-end. Unlike our crowd, they need help choosing a bike, getting it serviced, and figuring out the right accessories.

I worked in shops for years and there was very little money made on the serious riders, even if they were constantly hanging around taking up time and space. Sure, they bring in other business sometimes, and help keep the riding community active. But to actually stay in business you've got to figure out a way to get paid. One of the best ways to make it work is something you see more these days: A combination shop and cafe, where the hangers-on have to pay for at least some of their beer and coffee.

 

[Hunter]

Today's example - stopped into my favorite local bike shop (though this time of year its for ski supplies). Spied a Kenda Nevegal 2.35 hanging on the wall, with a price tag of $65. WTF. Someday someone in a super pinch will buy it, but damn, confirms my opinion that I can't afford fueling my habit with supplies from the LBS.

 

[Tetreault]

God after thinking some more and reading some of the other monkeys opinions and experiences makes me remember how much i actually despise X shop here in town. I remember one owner always saying "labour pays for labour" (as in the money they make on repairs pays the wages for the mechanics and sales people) and for some reason this means that they are struggling, on a satuday i would profit the place thousands, me alone working for the week easily paid for the power, water, phone, internet, and rent for a month, not to mention the revenue the other 15 sales peolple managed throughout that month. Sorry you are not struggling if you manage to **** off for half the year to austrailia, europe, interbike, the mountains, or your new vacation home on the island.