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(Are) Western Men Responsible for all Achievements(?)

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Western Men Responsible for all Achievements
The Telegraph, London | 1/28/04 | Julian Coman

Charles Murray believes Western men alone are responsible for all the great achievements of civilisation.

To say that Charles Murray makes enemies easily is something of an understatement. His last major academic work was variously branded as "racist, philosophically shabby, politically ugly, disingenuous and creepy". These were judgments on his mid-1990s bestseller, The Bell-Curve, in which Murray argued that for genetic reasons African-Americans had significantly lower average IQs than whites or Asians. He then lay low, perhaps wondering how such a masterpiece of political incorrectness could be bettered.

The answer comes in the form of Human Accomplishment: the Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 BC to 1950, an extraordinarily ambitious resume of the major cultural achievements, from music to philosophy to chemistry. Its robust conclusions have already had the singular effect of enraging feminists, members of ethnic minorities, lovers of 20th-century modernism, orientalists and Islamic fundamentalists.

Put bluntly, Murray has tried to prove scientifically the overwhelming cultural superiority of dead White males. By pursuing an arcane 134-year-old statistical method known as "historiometry", he claims to have scientifically demonstrated what every cultural conservative instinctively knows: white males have been head and shoulders above all rivals when it comes to significant cultural achievement in the arts and sciences.

Think Shakespeare. Think Michelangelo. Think Louis Pasteur. Don't think women or non-Caucasians. According to Murray, the idea that no one culture or tradition can ever be judged objectively superior to another has led to a willful and quite unjustified "trashing" of Dead White Males. "In anthologies of literature now, women and black writers are represented out of all proportion to their merit, in order to promote equality," he says. "Let's not take Shakespeare - it's too obvious. But, for example, why are pupils reading Toni Morrison instead of Joseph Conrad? Conrad is incomparably better than Morrison could ever dream of being. But if you say that you will be accused of male, white, Anglo-Saxon prejudice."

The methodology of Human Accomplishment is disarmingly simple. For five years, Murray assessed 167 encyclopedias, adding up the space accorded to the most significant scientists and artists throughout history, stopping the count at 1950. Skeptics point out that all but three of the encyclopedias were published in the latter half of the 20th century, giving the experiment a modern bias. Murray argues, however, that within 50 years, greatness will almost always have made itself known. So all pre-1950 candidates for posterity were given a fair chance. In the end, 4002 artists, scientists and philosophers make the final cut. They are divided into a set of league tables claiming to rank scientifically the best and brightest members of the human species up to 1950. The more words devoted to a philosopher, a musician or a physicist in Murray's encyclopedias, the greater his significance and achievement.

Shakespeare naturally takes the Western literature prize, as the most discussed writer of all time. Goethe is next. Beethoven and Mozart tie for music, Isaac Newton wins in combined sciences; Galileo is second. Women, it emerges, have contributed almost nothing. Africa is not even on the map. Confucius gets an honorable mention. But in general, Eastern cultures have just not tried hard enough:

"You have a philosophical and theological culture in East Asia that states that this life is not that important," Murray says. "This is one of a whole cycle of lives if you're a Buddhist. Striving in this life is seen as a source of suffering rather than a source of pleasure. That's explicit in Buddhism, but is also present in Daoism."

By contrast, the development of the Christian notion of vocation, particularly from the 14th century onwards, saw a flowering of intellectual and artistic achievement, almost exclusively among men. "To express yourself, to create beauty, to discover the miracle of God's works through science was seen as pleasing to God. That was extremely powerful in its effects." Thus, between 1400 and 1950, Murray's method has found that 72 per cent of significant figures in arts and sciences came from Britain, France, Germany and Italy alone. Overall, male Europeans and North Americans are shown to be responsible for 97 per cent of scientific accomplishment from 800 BC to 1950. Statistically, when it comes to curing disease, building bridges, inventing glasses or devising new, better modes of transport, Western man is in a league of his own.

"What the human species is today," he says, "it owes in astonishing degree to what was accomplished in just half a dozen centuries by the peoples of one small portion of the north-western Eurasian land mass." Unfortunately, there is a sting in the tail. In the 20th century, Western societies lost their religious convictions while equality and inclusion replaced the pursuit of excellence as the highest social goal. The result: nihilism, relativism, Toni Morrison and "unreadable" literature such as James Joyce's Finnegans Wake. "The 20th century tipped over into a kind of sterility. Finnegans Wake will become a curiosity, like atonality in music."

Instead of the vibrant vision of a Dante, readers got the bleak absurdities of the likes of Albert Camus, Jean-Paul Sartre and even Woody Allen, all utterly depressed by the meaninglessness of life. For a nihilist, says Murray, producing great work is "just harder". As for women and the ethnic minorities: "Let's see them produce the art. It's not necessarily true that justice, freedom and the social good go hand in hand with the production of great art."
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
when i read the thread title, murray immediately came to mind.
i first found out about him from slashdot's review of his book last year.
for reasons too many to number, it's rather uncomfortable to take his point of view objectively, however merited.

i'd like to think that his goal is to emphasize human accomplishment, not white male accomplishment, but that's a stretch. I'd be put out if i were a thin-skinned easterner.

Perhaps i'm being rather polyanna, but I don't think he's out to exalt the white man; he's most likely in the ranks of dan rather, who doesn't bend his ear to an opposing point of view. Of course, this opinion comes with the usual caveats that i don't have one shred of evidence (even anecdotal), i just wanted to type something to fake my co-workers into thinking i was working.

friggin' whitey!
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Originally posted by N8
In the 20th century, Western societies lost their religious convictions while equality and inclusion replaced the pursuit of excellence as the highest social goal. The result: nihilism, relativism, Toni Morrison and "unreadable" literature such as James Joyce's Finnegans Wake. "The 20th century tipped over into a kind of sterility. Finnegans Wake will become a curiosity, like atonality in music."

Instead of the vibrant vision of a Dante, readers got the bleak absurdities of the likes of Albert Camus, Jean-Paul Sartre and even Woody Allen, all utterly depressed by the meaninglessness of life.


That's an interesting commentary on "post modernism".
 

laura

DH_Laura
Jul 16, 2002
6,259
15
Glitter Gulch
this guy is a joke. the bell curve was a bunch of absolute garbage. the formulas that he used to get the stats that he did were just wrong. he and his partner made the book say exactly what they wanted it to say.
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
I'd be curious to read his book, though, just to understand how he put it all together. Laura - did you read it? What'd you think (other than your aforesaid statement)?

Anyone know if there is a contrasting book out there? Kind read one extreme and then the other and see if you can find the middle ground which is often more where the truth will lie?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
The reason for WHY Western Men have been key can be debated. Most western societies relegated women to maternal duties and ethnic/non-westerners to subservient roles thereby limiting their ability to contribute to Western Civilization on the whole. Although, we can examine non-western cultures to see what achievements they were able to come up with on their own to make Murray's conclusion stick (which is what Murray does).
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
Originally posted by N8
The reason for WHY Western Men have been key can be debated. Most western societies relegated women to maternal duties and ethnic/non-westerners to subservient roles thereby limiting their ability to contribute to Western Civilization on the whole. Although, we can examine non-western cultures to see what achievements they were able to come up with on their own to make Murray's conclusion stick (which is what Murray does).
Well...I mean notably these are far older accomplishments, but I would think things like paper, and the wheel, and gun powder would rank pretty darned high on this list...

I mean the Chinese had tons of "technological" accomplishments thousands of years before westerners realized that lice in the hair wasn't all that dandy ;) I mean, I'm not well versed in the different accomplishments of each society, but I'm pretty sure the Chinese had a good hand in the role of human development...

And then again...how are we defining "western" culture...cuz weren't there several societies that are sort of claimed by westerners but were really more middle eastern? (Again, totally speaking out of my ass...just trying to make conversation). What about the egyptians? Or do we assume that most of their things while great, had disappeared before anyone else started developing 'western society'?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Well...I mean notably these are far older accomplishments, but I would think things like paper, and the wheel, and gun powder would rank pretty darned high on this list...

I mean the Chinese had tons of "technological" accomplishments thousands of years before westerners realized that lice in the hair wasn't all that dandy ;) I mean, I'm not well versed in the different accomplishments of each society, but I'm pretty sure the Chinese had a good hand in the role of human development...

And then again...how are we defining "western" culture...cuz weren't there several societies that are sort of claimed by westerners but were really more middle eastern? (Again, totally speaking out of my ass...just trying to make conversation). What about the egyptians? Or do we assume that most of their things while great, had disappeared before anyone else started developing 'western society'?

However, then China's rulers then chose to isolate themselves from the rest of the world for hundreds and hundreds of years and the bulk of their achievements were lost in the process. They were not able to capitalize on their discoveries and Westerners, given time, were able not only to reproduce China's technologies but to vastly improve on them.
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
Originally posted by N8
However, then China's rulers then chose to isolate themselves from the rest of the world for hundreds and hundreds of years and the bulk of their achievements were lost in the process. They were not able to capitalize on their discoveries and Westerners, given time, were able not only to reproduce China's technologies but to vastly improve on them.
Aha, so it is not the process of invention that makes it good, it is the process of capitalization...making money on it and improving upon it until it becomes a viable and even better money making product.....

Hrmmm...nahhh, westerners aren't all greeedy ;)

Besides...China didn't have to share, they were the center of the universe! :)

hehehe - as was Japan....and I think as was Europe :D
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Aha, so it is not the process of invention that makes it good, it is the process of capitalization...making money on it and improving upon it until it becomes a viable and even better money making product.....

Hrmmm...nahhh, westerners aren't all greeedy ;)

Besides...China didn't have to share, they were the center of the universe! :)

hehehe - as was Japan....and I think as was Europe :D
It's not the invention that is responsible for achievement but how the invention is used to advance the inventor's civilization. By the time Western countries got around to checking out China/Japan they found that these Eastern cultures were quite medieval in comparison.

And yes, Eastern cultures were every bit as greedy as Western ones.
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
Originally posted by N8
It's not the invention that is responsible for achievement but how the invention is used to advance the inventor's civilization. By the time Western countries got around to checking out China/Japan they found that these Eastern cultures were quite medieval in comparison.

And yes, Eastern cultures were every bit as greedy as Western ones.
I do always find it interesting how we say that when westerners got around to checking out china and japan we found them to be medieval in comparison...yet the westerners were the ones who had yet to figure out the value of a bath....and the value of cleaning **** offa the roads....and the value of cooking food before it rotted (mmm the flavour of rot)....

We might have been all about advancement technologically, but I would argue that the cleanliness of the societies we visited added a component to civilization that westerners just weren't quite ready to accept...

mmmm hairy smelly barbaric westerners ;) so proud to call myself one!
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by N8
It's not the invention that is responsible for achievement but how the invention is used to advance the inventor's civilization.
In that case, he's ignoring terribly the advancements made in Phonecia (alphabet) and Persia (the greatest libraries and institutions of learning the world had ever seen and would see for another millenium) before their respective falls. They advanced philosophically, artistically, and academically during their periods of dominance just as quickly (relative to the world they started in) and for just as long as the western world is advancing in it's period of dominance.

It's also ridiculous to ignore the last 50 years, with an offhand comment that we haven't advanced. That's either blind ignorance, idiocy, or denial. Though it's a convenient manner to segue into statements like "As for women and the ethnic minorities: "Let's see them produce the art. It's not necessarily true that justice, freedom and the social good go hand in hand with the production of great art." Well, yes, if you ignore the last 50 years when those groups have actually had opportunity to contribute...

I think Marie Curie might have some **** to say about all that too.

Face it, this is no better revisionist pop philosophy/history than Dan Brown's take on Christianity. It's popular because it tells its audience exactly what they want to hear.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I do always find it interesting how we say that when westerners got around to checking out china and japan we found them to be medieval in comparison...yet the westerners were the ones who had yet to figure out the value of a bath....and the value of cleaning **** offa the roads....and the value of cooking food before it rotted (mmm the flavour of rot)....

We might have been all about advancement technologically, but I would argue that the cleanliness of the societies we visited added a component to civilization that westerners just weren't quite ready to accept...

mmmm hairy smelly barbaric westerners ;) so proud to call myself one!
On the other hand Western style toilets are VASTLY superior to the Japanese "hole-in-the-floor." Most Japanese folk I talked to whilst in Japan even had to admit so... that and their desire for busty Western blondes.

:D
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
0
North of Oz
Originally posted by N8
On the other hand Western style toilets are VASTLY superior to the Japanese "hole-in-the-floor." Most Japanese folk I talked to whilst in Japan even had to admit so... that and their desire for busty Western blondes.

:D
Actually, to rebut that particular comment...after living in Japan for a year I found the public 'hole in the floor' far more sanitary than our public seats (yuck!).

I'll take a squat anywhere rather than actually needing to place my tushie in the same location someone else placed their tushie...and you can often find, especially in female restrooms in the US that very few women actually hit the hole in public restrooms (bigger yuck), whereas in Japan rarely was that the case.

Now granted, in private residences, having a western style restroom is far better than having a hole in the ground....but the family I lived with was fortunate enough to have an almost real toilet (we had a fancy high pressure squirt gun for flushing).

The only time I was ever truly repulsed by the holes in the ground was at a small restaurant on the side of the main road ...the ceiling was so low that everyone had to bend down, and there were more insects and creepy crawlies in that little tiny room that I almost puked...then there's the fact that women and men share the same "restroom" as well as trough that you stand over. There's just a separation between little cubicles...very gross to see someone else's stuff get flushed down the trough while you're doing your thing.
 

golgiaparatus

Out of my element
Aug 30, 2002
7,340
41
Deep in the Jungles of Oklahoma
Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I'd be curious to read his book, though, just to understand how he put it all together. Laura - did you read it? What'd you think (other than your aforesaid statement)?

Anyone know if there is a contrasting book out there? Kind read one extreme and then the other and see if you can find the middle ground which is often more where the truth will lie?
I read Jim and Suzy went to town last week. I thought it was pretty deep where it explained how Jim had a red shirt and Suzy had a pink dress, and when Suzy shared her apple with Jim I was just overtaken with joy.

Oh and the dude sounds like an ass IMHO. I'd read his book if I were trapped in jail with nothing but the book and bubba my 300 lb gorrilla bunk mate that 'dont like to talk'.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I'd be curious to read his book, though, just to understand how he put it all together. Laura - did you read it? What'd you think (other than your aforesaid statement)?

Anyone know if there is a contrasting book out there? Kind read one extreme and then the other and see if you can find the middle ground which is often more where the truth will lie?
Id say a good contrast to his theory would be "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.

As the title suggests, it pretty much tries to sum up why whites have shown to make the most advancements...simply because of location and culture not intelligence at all. Definitely worth a read.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Originally posted by BurlySurly
Id say a good contrast to his theory would be "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.

As the title suggests, it pretty much tries to sum up why whites have shown to make the most advancements...simply because of location and culture not intelligence at all. Definitely worth a read.
Yep, definitely worth a read. Good call Shirley, see ya not a useless lump of flesh after all.;) :D