[Patrick L]

Looking for some advise more than having any specific questions.

After just finding out I got through the gate into both the film and photography programs at Montana State University my parents said they will go half with me on a new camera. Being it is that I am double majoring I feel the 5D MKII or 7D would be most appropriate versus a dedicated HD camera at this point. With the newer firmware for the 5D's they now shoot native 24p (23.97fps) and handle slightly better in low light, have less noise, has better latitude, and over all just has a better image. However the 7D also shoots 720 60p, and handles a rolling shutter marginally better.

I won't over crank with 60fps a whole lot but on occasion it would be nice to have. I do already have Twixtor however. Lens's I have are a 50mm f1.4 which would be an 80mm on the 7D, a 28mm f2.8 (45mm on 7D), and a 16mm f2.8 (25mm on 7D).

What would you do in my situation and why? Is the image quality of the 5D worth the extra $800 or do I buy the 7D and spend that $800 on other stuff like a Zoom H4N and a shotgun mic with a nice wind screen?

If it makes any difference I will be shooting student projects, biking, and skiing.

 

[Quo Fan]

I would get the 5D MKII, which happens to be one of the bodies I'm currently lusting after. I don't shoot video with my DSLR, but on the project I'm working, National Grid was making a video of some aspects of the project, and the film crew were using 5D MKII's.

 

[stevew]

this was shot with a 7D

 

[dump]

I don't have particular experience with either of these cameras, but I have seen a lot of photos and footage from both. You can get great looking footage from both... neither is going to hold you back.

The camera body is only one part of the equation. Lenses are extremely important as is the ability to record good sound. In other words, don't blow your whole budget on the camera body alone.

For a DSLR video kit, I would recommend:
- camera body
- a couple of lenses (including a 1 fast prime) + clear filters (for protection)
- audio recorder + mic
- 2x large capacity SD cards
- LCD viewfinder/magnifier (like Zacuto z-finder)
- A good tripod + decent video head
- 1x extra battery
- padded bag to carry it in

If you're going into a film and photo program, you should have quite a bit of equipment available to you, so this would be more as your personal camera.

I recommend checking out:
http://philipbloom.net/2009/10/01/5dmkii-or-the-7d/

Also, go easy on the Twixor. I think it's nice when used lightly, but not when things turn to jelly.

 

[narlus]

i've had my 5D2 for a couple of years and really like the image quality. i wish the AF performance was more advanced.

i can't speak to the 7D, but know a guy who shoots for AP who didn't feel like forking out the $$$ for a 1DIV and loves his 7D (he also has a 1D3).

 

[Toshi]

I've been very happy with my 5D MkII. As said above lenses are also very important. The 135mm f/2L is my all-time favorite, although I haven't tried the 85mm f/1.2L…

 

[-BB-]

Sorry to derail here, but is there any Autofocus in video mode on either of these?

I guess this is somewhat related since I have a T2i and the T2i uses the he same chip as the 5D (though the 5 has twice the speed).

The HD video was a big selling point for me, but now I'm a bit disappointed.
My videos turn out WAY worse than any of those I've seen posted. They are all grainy and with the lack of AF it is tough to film anything moving (Bikes, kids etc). Is there an AF feature that I'm not aware of? Is my lighting not sufficient, thus the grainy end product?

Btw, I'm using the stock lens only....

 

[Patrick L]

the T2i uses the same chip as the 7D (i believe) not the 5D, which would make sense of this graininess you speak of. This graininess in the digital world is called 'noise' and the 7D/T2i have more noise in their image than the 5D especially in lowlight. SO yes more light will help in some situations. and autofocus in video is just a nightmare from my experience.

im already set with a tripod as i have been shooting with a GL2 for a while. Those of you with the 5D, how do you like the audio from it? one of the things drawing me towards the 7D is that I could also pick up a Zoom H4n audio recorder and a Sennheiser ME66/k6 shotgun mic, but if the audio is fine with say just a XLR adapter I might just go with the 5D. and as stated above i do have a few prime lenses to get me started before i can pick up more.

 

[Toshi]

I bought a small external mic (no phantom power, nothing fancy, just goes in the 3.5mm mic in port) for my 5DII and it's adequate. I'd post a link to a recording I just posted last night of my wife performing a concerto but youtube is blocked here. Search for Copland Clarinet Concerto Jessica Clark and you should find it.

 

[narlus]

Sorry to derail here, but is there any Autofocus in video mode on either of these?

I guess this is somewhat related since I have a T2i and the T2i uses the he same chip as the 5D (though the 5 has twice the speed).

The HD video was a big selling point for me, but now I'm a bit disappointed.
My videos turn out WAY worse than any of those I've seen posted. They are all grainy and with the lack of AF it is tough to film anything moving (Bikes, kids etc). Is there an AF feature that I'm not aware of? Is my lighting not sufficient, thus the grainy end product?

Btw, I'm using the stock lens only....

there is no AF, so you either have to be really good w/ on-the-fly manual focus adjustments, or stop down quite a bit for more DoF.

what ISO are you shooting at typically?


i don't shoot much video (and i do zero processing), but i do shoot some songs from time to time and post 'em on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/narlus)

when they added the firmware feature of adjusting volume input gain, that was nice (so the bass didn't totally clip the sound, like the early vid clips I have up).

 

[-BB-]

there is no AF, so you either have to be really good w/ on-the-fly manual focus adjustments, or stop down quite a bit for more DoF.

what ISO are you shooting at typically?


i don't shoot much video (and i do zero processing), but i do shoot some songs from time to time and post 'em on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/narlus)

Hmmm... No clue on the Iso. Im still not sure how to adjust that in video mode. Mostly I use the Creative Auto for images since you can make some of the aprature adjustments etc and let the camera adjsut the other things in relation so you still get a good shot.

 

[narlus]

i don't know the details of your camera, but w/ the 5D2 you can take vids in manual mode, and change settings on the fly.

most of the vids i have are shot at very high ISO (3200 or 6400), just to stop down a bit and get more DoF; even then, as people move around, or if i zoom in or out, i need to manually tweak the focus here and there.

 

[-BB-]

i don't know the details of your camera, but w/ the 5D2 you can take vids in manual mode, and change settings on the fly.

most of the vids i have are shot at very high ISO (3200 or 6400), just to stop down a bit and get more DoF; even then, as people move around, or if i zoom in or out, i need to manually tweak the focus here and there.

I think that one of the issues is that my stock lens isn't very smooth so it is really tough to change focus and/or zoom in a fluid manner.

 

[narlus]

time for a new lens

 

[dump]

@-BB-
re: Graininess
As others have said, the graininess (noise) is caused by your camera bumping up the sensitivity of the sensor (ISO) to let in more light, so it can expose the footage properly.
Your camera is probably in auto mode, and it's adjusting the shutter speed and ISO on the fly. The lower your ISO, the less noise you will have. For me, under 1600 looks clear.

Some of the things you've experienced are probably pretty common now that DSLRs with are well within the consumer price range. The catch is that you're going to have to know a bit to get the most out of the video.

DSLR video isn't like a video camcorder (that has sort of automated or configured-away many of the things mentioned below.) The mind-frame for using video on a DSLR is more like that of a filmmaker than a point and shoot.

1. You have to use manual focus.

- Autofocus on a DSLR looks pretty bad as the thing hunts for the focus. If your subject close to the camera and moving a lot, it can make the footage completely unusable.
Check the 3rd video on this page to see what I'm talking about:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond7000/page18.asp

- When you're using a shallow depth of field, the focal plane is pretty narrow, so you have to take care to focus... which you do by looking @ the LCD, which can difficult to show due to the size, so people use aftermarket 3x magnifying viewfinders so you can get your focus just right and follow it as the scene changes. (http://store.zacuto.com/Z-Finder.html) This is overkill for most people. My suggestion for causal shooting would be to use a larger depth of field (larger f stop, f10 for example), set the focus on your main target and let the shot play out.

- Some lenses aren't great for continuous focusing. Some aren't very smooth and make the footage jittery, others have loose tolerances, so just touching the focus ring moves the lens a bit. My suggestion here for general/casual shooting, is to set it, and leave it as you shoot the scene.

2. There is no video stabilization, so you have to keep it still by yourself.

- There's no shortage of ways to do this, but camera shake becomes more noticeable as you zoom in. If you're hand holding, I suggest wide angles, resting your elbow on something or using a tripod (kinda takes away the spontaneity).

- To do smooth zooming and focusing, you'll need some sort of stabilization... or just don't do these while shooting - see above.

3. The footage looks best in manual, but you have to know what you're doing

- In auto mode, the camera tries to expose the shot based on how it understands what it is seeing. Sometimes this works great - usually in well lit, outdoor scenes. Indoors, and in poor light, the results can be underwhelming or even bad.

- In manual mode, you retain control over the shutter speed and exposure... two key aspects of controlling the look of your footage. The downside is that it requires a bit more thinking and adjustment to get what you want.

Anyway, just some things to keep in mind. Give them a try and let us know how it goes.

 

[dante]

time for a new lens

Isn't it *always* time for a new lens? Kinda like bikes...

 

[-BB-]

@-BB-
re: Graininess
As others have said, the graininess (noise) is caused by your camera bumping up the sensitivity of the sensor (ISO) to let in more light, so it can expose the footage properly.
Your camera is probably in auto mode, and it's adjusting the shutter speed and ISO on the fly. The lower your ISO, the less noise you will have. For me, under 1600 looks clear.

Some of the things you've experienced are probably pretty common now that DSLRs with are well within the consumer price range. The catch is that you're going to have to know a bit to get the most out of the video.

DSLR video isn't like a video camcorder (that has sort of automated or configured-away many of the things mentioned below.) The mind-frame for using video on a DSLR is more like that of a filmmaker than a point and shoot.

1. You have to use manual focus.

- Autofocus on a DSLR looks pretty bad as the thing hunts for the focus. If your subject close to the camera and moving a lot, it can make the footage completely unusable.
Check the 3rd video on this page to see what I'm talking about:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond7000/page18.asp

- When you're using a shallow depth of field, the focal plane is pretty narrow, so you have to take care to focus... which you do by looking @ the LCD, which can difficult to show due to the size, so people use aftermarket 3x magnifying viewfinders so you can get your focus just right and follow it as the scene changes. (http://store.zacuto.com/Z-Finder.html) This is overkill for most people. My suggestion for causal shooting would be to use a larger depth of field (larger f stop, f10 for example), set the focus on your main target and let the shot play out.

- Some lenses aren't great for continuous focusing. Some aren't very smooth and make the footage jittery, others have loose tolerances, so just touching the focus ring moves the lens a bit. My suggestion here for general/casual shooting, is to set it, and leave it as you shoot the scene.

2. There is no video stabilization, so you have to keep it still by yourself.

- There's no shortage of ways to do this, but camera shake becomes more noticeable as you zoom in. If you're hand holding, I suggest wide angles, resting your elbow on something or using a tripod (kinda takes away the spontaneity).

- To do smooth zooming and focusing, you'll need some sort of stabilization... or just don't do these while shooting - see above.

3. The footage looks best in manual, but you have to know what you're doing

- In auto mode, the camera tries to expose the shot based on how it understands what it is seeing. Sometimes this works great - usually in well lit, outdoor scenes. Indoors, and in poor light, the results can be underwhelming or even bad.

- In manual mode, you retain control over the shutter speed and exposure... two key aspects of controlling the look of your footage. The downside is that it requires a bit more thinking and adjustment to get what you want.

Anyway, just some things to keep in mind. Give them a try and let us know how it goes.

Shoot, I had a resp all typed up but lost it some how.

Iso - Not sure, but I did learn how to adjust it yesterday by reading the manual a bit more.

So here is my question...
I know that shutter speed is the speed in which the shutter opens and closes. Iso is how light sensitive the "film" is (how much light is needed to take an image... the lower the iso the more light you need, so in general the longer your shutter speed needs to be, though Aperture plays in as well)
Aperture is how WIDE the shutter opens. This will affect your DOF and also to a degree will affect the amount of light entering the camera, so again you will have interplay between the Fstop, shutter speed and Iso.

If you lower your ISO, you need to Decrease the shutter speed and/or increase your aperture (wider opening). If you have a wider aperture you will have a greater DOF. If you decrease the shutter speed you will not be able to get faster moving targets.

Am I correct so far?

So here is my question. What is the Exposure then?

 

[-BB-]

Isn't it *always* time for a new lens? Kinda like bikes...

Bikes AND brewing equipment.... Oh, and stuff for my 150g saltwater reef (coral) tank.

The camera is to document both the Bikes and the tank... drinking the beer is proof enough for the brewing equipment.

 

[Patrick L]

expose is the total amount of light allowed to fall on the film or sensor.

the options are numerous when changing your ISO, Aperture, and shutter speed but still keeping the same exposure. there is a rule called the law of reciprocity. Reciprocity means that the relationship between shutter speeds and f-ratios remains constant. Open up a stop (which admits twice as much light), speed up the shutter by halving the shutter speed (which admits half as much light). Total light admitted to the film or sensor remains the same, but either you can now freeze a subject in motion (actually, you reduce the blur of the moving object to an acceptable level), or if you have closed down/slowed down you gain more depth-of-field (objects closer and farther from the point of focus are now in acceptable sharpness).

f4 at 1/250th sec, f5.6 at 1/125th sec, f8 at 1/60th sec, etc. are all the same exposure, as long as the ISO is set the same for each.

i have never shot digital before, until i get a 5D or 7D, so it's easy to just set my ISO to whatever the film im using is, but im sure having the ability to change ISO on the fly would make this all confusing for some one just learning, so i would just set your ISO and leave it and just play around with the aperture and shutter speed until you have a good understanding of it.

 

[dump]

If you lower your ISO, you need to Decrease the shutter speed and/or increase your aperture (wider opening). If you have a wider aperture you will have a greater DOF. If you decrease the shutter speed you will not be able to get faster moving targets.

Am I correct so far?

Yup, you got it!

So here is my question. What is the Exposure then?

Exposure is a general term for the amount of light you're letting into the camera, or for lack of a better term, your "settings" wrt the shutterspeed, aperture ( and iso).

 

[narlus]

-BB-. exposure is basically the settings your camera had to determine the amount of light hitting the sensor. as Patrick mentioned, it's governed by three parameters.

ISO - sensitivity of the sensor. at higher values, more noise is inherent
shutter speed - the amount of time the sensor is exposed to the light
aperture - the opening of the lens; a lower f stop=large hole, so more light gets in relative to the same shutter speed

this might help:
http://www.digital-photography-school.com/learning-exposure-in-digital-photography