Blackwater, a major security contractor operating in Iraq has had its license revoked by the Iraqi government over the killing of 8 civilians.
discuss.
Blackwater License Revoked
- Thread starter RenegadeRick
- Start date
I have seen more blackwater contractors that have been killed due to stupidity than any other. we would watch them rool out with thier armored excursions and come back five minutes later with only one person alive and 10 bodies inside the vehicles. They would get slaughtered all the time. It is no surprise at all that it is finally coming back to bite black water. It didn't take much to become a Blackwater employee, there very lenient on their standards and they pay so well that almost anyone will apply and get the job. One specific guy I know that works for Blackwater said his first check was $250,000 tax-free in a lump sum payment for a six month contract. He was saying that he was in its been two years over in Iraq and make $1 million. But he had to survive his first six months in Baghdad, about a third of Blackwater's employees were killed in Baghdad during the first six months.
They're all State Department contracts anyways, it's for exact reasons like this but companies like Blackwater around, in a sense a fusible link for the US military. If something goes bad it's not on the military it is on a contractor.
I look at the military contractors as sort like security guards at a mall. They couldn't get into the military or they get kicked out for some reason so now they have to take the next best thing.
They're all State Department contracts anyways, it's for exact reasons like this but companies like Blackwater around, in a sense a fusible link for the US military. If something goes bad it's not on the military it is on a contractor.
I look at the military contractors as sort like security guards at a mall. They couldn't get into the military or they get kicked out for some reason so now they have to take the next best thing.
Best news to come out of Iraq EVER.
Seems fair to pay them ~10x more than our qualified fighting force... Call me crazy, but wouldn't that money be better spent on military pay raises and equipment?
This is the rough equivalent of not being able to hire enough public school teachers at $25k a year, so instead hiring ex-cons at $250,000 a year to fill the gap.
The things Cheney and Bush want to do in Iraq are so disgusting and vile, that even after their meddling with the interpretation of the Geneva Conventions, it is still outside of the military's scope. So they just pay civilian vigilantes to do it instead.
actually, they ARE very picky and they DON'T hire military rejects, just the opposite is true. my personal opinion of them is still undecided as i have many friends from both the law enforcement and military arenas who work for them now.
just check the basic requirements...not exactly "security guards"
the problem is that these guys are good...really good but they aren't supervised as tightly as they were in the military and there are, until now, few consequences for "getting the job done."
i received a job offer from them and from dynacorp but after i got a "hell no!" from my wife, i turned them down. the money was enticing though.
the really sad thing is that these guys make a ton more money and have much better equipment than our volunteer military will ever have.
Well...we all know how corporations, gov't's, etc. relax "requirements" to get the appropriate numbers...(not saying that that is the case here....but....).
who do you think would be more willing to use excessive deadly force. a veteran who spent his career in an office or a SEAL/force recon/ranger who has been in combat, has killed and obviously has no problem getting paid very well to kill some more?
The main issue is that these guys work as individuals in a "team" scope. A good friend of mine (Ranger) took an 8 month contract for $150k one month after his first tour in Iraq. He was in a 4 man team of all highly trained individuals. The issue is that these guys are individuals that have never trained TOGETHER. He had a story of a shoot out he was involved in. When the sh!t hit the fan, everyone scattered. Nobody had anyones back, it was you and you alone.
You can take the best individual talents in the world, but that is no guarantee you will form the best team. He said he would rather be with a unit for far less money because your chances of survival are far greater.
<edit> They are also taking top guys out of the military. I don't blame a guy for taking the money, but I feel for the units that will surely miss them the next time they deploy.
good point JD. luckily, 3 of the guys that took a job with BW from my department all got put into the same unit. one of which lost his leg but is now back at work here after passing the fitness test on his "magic leg"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that money were to actually be invested directly into the military, the actual personnel would see maybe a few dollars added to their paycheck. I'm pretty sure the majority of it would be spent of infrastructure and the likes. It goes along the likes of what was just mentioned - how contractors can be highly trained but have very little in the way of an organized fighting force such as our military.
I remember that story, truly awesome right there.
We were talking about the insane amount of money there was to be made after seeing the BW guys in New Orleans (they were guarding banks and whatnots). That's what sparked the conversation and Stromel was saying how cool it was to have seemingly unlimited weapons choices too. He said if you wanted it, they either had it or would get it for you.
He also said that the DOD contracts were insane. If a guy is making $150k, then Blackwater was getting something around $300k for him. Our tax dollars hard at work right there.
While these guys might be well qualified, you are probably right about the supervision.
I am reading Silent Running, a book about WW2 submarines, and I realize the ship runs because of discipline, starting with the captain.
I doubt these guys have the sort of discipline, and more importantly, accountability.
I am reading Silent Running, a book about WW2 submarines, and I realize the ship runs because of discipline, starting with the captain.
I doubt these guys have the sort of discipline, and more importantly, accountability.
I am aware of what they say on the website. however what they actually hire is another story. my brigade when I was over was willing to put any soldier on inactive reserve status to do a maximum of four 6 month tours with any contractor from the state dept.actually, they ARE very picky and they DON'T hire military rejects, just the opposite is true. my personal opinion of them is still undecided as i have many friends from both the law enforcement and military arenas who work for them now.
just check the basic requirements...not exactly "security guards"
the problem is that these guys are good...really good but they aren't supervised as tightly as they were in the military and there are, until now, few consequences for "getting the job done."
i received a job offer from them and from dynacorp but after i got a "hell no!" from my wife, i turned them down. the money was enticing though.
the really sad thing is that these guys make a ton more money and have much better equipment than our volunteer military will ever have.
the biggest **** bags we had went at the chance. cooks with disciplinary actions against them, truck drivers and soldiers with less than one year in.
they will take anyone....
weird...i've seen several deserving grunts with the proper clearance and training turned down for various reasons. perhaps they've upped their standards?
It's the Pentagon that pays Blackwater. Kind of sad that they can make the money they do and endless billions can go into Iraq yet vets and the military somehow get the short end of the stick.
Also these mercenaries are "not" the first wave units, in fact they are suppose to be providing support and should not be the first to engage into combat. With our military so thin and globalized, why not use these people for humanitarian efforts in places where they can really make a difference and improve the lives of millions??
Here is a question, as I sit in the middle of Baghdad….
Iraq has revoked Blackwater’s license to conduct operations there. If, for whatever reason, Blackwater says nuts to that, and decides to stay and continues to run operations (or just gets into firefights will leaving), then the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF) will probably be used to stop them. Because we (the Army) are supporting the ISF and have embeds with them, does that mean we will have to engage them as well?
We are already in the middle of a 50-way battle royale…. What’s another group to fight.
BTW, Blackwater just started producing their own APC. In the Army we mockingly call all these mercenaries over here, TSOB: Tough Sons O’… well you know the rest. I don’t want to get kicked out of the forum.
But our opinion of them is very low, since when you drive through the city, you just see these TSOB convoys ALL OVER THE PLACE. They just do whatever they want and we aren’t really sure who they report to, because it definitely isn’t us. More importantly, they do not coordinate with us, so when we see a bunch of dudes running around with body armor, no uniforms and weapons… what steps do you think we take??? It happens all the time.
Iraq has revoked Blackwater’s license to conduct operations there. If, for whatever reason, Blackwater says nuts to that, and decides to stay and continues to run operations (or just gets into firefights will leaving), then the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF) will probably be used to stop them. Because we (the Army) are supporting the ISF and have embeds with them, does that mean we will have to engage them as well?
We are already in the middle of a 50-way battle royale…. What’s another group to fight.
BTW, Blackwater just started producing their own APC. In the Army we mockingly call all these mercenaries over here, TSOB: Tough Sons O’… well you know the rest. I don’t want to get kicked out of the forum.
But our opinion of them is very low, since when you drive through the city, you just see these TSOB convoys ALL OVER THE PLACE. They just do whatever they want and we aren’t really sure who they report to, because it definitely isn’t us. More importantly, they do not coordinate with us, so when we see a bunch of dudes running around with body armor, no uniforms and weapons… what steps do you think we take??? It happens all the time.
When one of those mercenaries gets shot in the face, you'll see no tears from me. It's a disgrace that these prostitutes get the big bucks while the actual military folks struggle to support their families.
You can say "bitches" in PaWN...
Unfortunately for all of us, this is a subject on which I am mostly obliged to shut my mouth. However, the one thing I will point out in a very neutral fashion is that the current US military is neither trained nor equipped to provide personal security details, especially in the scope required by the debacle in Iraq. Using contractors makes sense, and is far lest costly in the long run than restructuring the military for what is, in essence, a non-military mission and may not be necessary on this scale again or for a long while.
I'd also say that my personal observations of professionalism and ability among various organizations in Iraq may not jive with the popular media-driven perception or the opinions of some of you who've been there, too. I just can't go into public debate/detail on the issue.
Unfortunately for all of us, this is a subject on which I am mostly obliged to shut my mouth. However, the one thing I will point out in a very neutral fashion is that the current US military is neither trained nor equipped to provide personal security details, especially in the scope required by the debacle in Iraq. Using contractors makes sense, and is far lest costly in the long run than restructuring the military for what is, in essence, a non-military mission and may not be necessary on this scale again or for a long while.
I'd also say that my personal observations of professionalism and ability among various organizations in Iraq may not jive with the popular media-driven perception or the opinions of some of you who've been there, too. I just can't go into public debate/detail on the issue.
MikeD, I absolutely agree with you that we (the military) are not trained to support the level of escort and personnel protection missions that these guys do. In fact, we barely have enough troops to do the few things we have left to do (In case people don’t know, KBR takes care of our food, fuel, convoy escorts in a number of situation, driving our vehicles during deployments and redeployment, vehicle upgrades, etc. We contract out cargo planes as well. In fact, a lot of the people who work on our vehicles don’t speak English. America no longer has an Army that can support itself, and we rely totally on contractors and Third Country Nationals (TNCs) to get the job done. But I digress….)
The bottom line is that these guys are NOT just doing escort and personnel security. They are actively engaged and conduct their own “missions” using their own APCs and air support. Who orders these missions? Who knows. Who do they report too? No idea.
The bottom line is that these guys are NOT just doing escort and personnel security. They are actively engaged and conduct their own “missions” using their own APCs and air support. Who orders these missions? Who knows. Who do they report too? No idea.
Uhhhh...? What?? I can't speak to the situation of any contractors based outside the IZ, but there is NOTHING like that going on with any of the WPPS contractors. Absolutely not.
Hmmm, I had a Blue Moon with an orange slice in it...but all that happened is that I feel like kissing a cute boy now...
I was actually thinking he's trying to UNcover something (to the best of his legal abilities), but I wear my tinfoil hat backwards all gangsta style.MikeD is trying to cover something up!
Edit: TWICE!
Bitches.
Time says:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1662586,00.html
TIME has obtained an incident report prepared by the U.S. government describing a fire fight Sunday in Baghdad in which at least eight Iraqis were reported killed and 13 wounded. The deadly incident occurred when a convoy of U.S. personnel protected by Blackwater security contractors came under small arms fire. Blackwater returned fire, resulting in the Iraqi deaths. The loss of life has provoked anger in Baghdad, where the Interior Ministry has suspended Blackwater's license to operate around the country. Several Iraqi government officials have indicated their opposition to Blackwater's continued presence in their country. If the suspension is made permanent, it could significantly impair security for key U.S. personnel in the country, a U.S. official in Baghdad told TIME. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, whose State Department depends on Blackwater to protect its Iraq-based staffers, called Iraqi prime minister Nouri al-Maliki to say that the U.S. has launched its own investigation into the matter.
According to the incident report, the skirmish occurred at 12:08 p.m. on Sunday when, "the motorcade was engaged with small arms fire from several locations" as it moved through a neighborhood of west Baghdad. "The team returned fire to several identified targets" before leaving the area. One vehicle engine was hit and disabled by bullets and had to be towed away. A separate convoy arriving to help was "blocked/surrounded by several Iraqi police and Iraqi national guard vehicles and armed personnel," the report says. Then an American helicopter hovered over the traffic circle, as the U.S. convoy departed without casualties. Some reports have said the helicopter also opened fire on Iraqis, but a Blackwater official told TIME that no shots were fired from the air.
Some eyewitnesses said the fighting began after an explosion detonated near the U.S. convoy, but the incident report does not reflect that. The Blackwater official declared that, contrary to some reports from Iraq, "the convoy was violently attacked by armed insurgents, not civilians, and our people did their job, they fired back to defend human life." The official said that "Blackwater is contracted to work in a war zone, its personnel are under frequent fire, and all the rules of engagement permit them to defend themselves."
Blackwater, a security company based in Moyock, North Carolina, has more than 1,000 personnel in Iraq, most protecting senior State Department personnel and others carrying out sensitive work in the country. Founded by former Navy SEAL Erik Prince, the firm is privately held and secretive. Last week U.S. ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker testified to the Senate that the State Department is overwhelmingly dependent on contractors like Blackwater for its security. As he put it, "There is simply no way at all that the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security could ever have enough full-time personnel to staff the security function in Iraq. There is no alternative except through contracts."
Crocker added, "The capability and courage of the individuals who provide security under contract is worthy of respect of all Americans." As an example of the dangers faced by private security personnel in the country, he cited a Blackwater helicopter that crashed in Iraq last Monday. "One of Blackwater's helicopters went down yesterday — a hostile fire incident," the Ambassador said. "Fortunately no one was killed in that accident, but over 30 of our contract security Americans have been killed keeping the rest of us safe." A Blackwater official confirmed Crocker's account of the incident.
A spokesman for Iraq's Interior Ministry has told reporters it has cancelled Blackwater's license and will launch an investigation into whether excessive force was used in the incident. But, in spite of that declaration, which was carried on wire reports, a senior Iraqi official contacted by TIME said that prime minister Maliki is expected to discuss the episode at a cabinet session scheduled for Tuesday and that, as far as the license being permanently revoked, "it's not a done deal yet."
However, the Iraqi official also said he had spoken with at least two cabinet members about yesterday's shooting and that some in the government have "been upset about Blackwater for a while now. They want them to get out," said the advisor. The State Department said Secretary Rice called prime minister Maliki on Monday is expected to occur later on Monday. She expressed her regret for the loss of life in the incident, assuring him that the U.S. will conduct its own investigation and inform the Iraqi government of its progress. House Oversight Committee Chairman Henry Waxman announced Monday he will launch an investigation into the incident as well, calling it "an unfortunate demonstration of the perils of excessive reliance on private security contractors."
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1662586,00.html
TIME has obtained an incident report prepared by the U.S. government describing a fire fight Sunday in Baghdad in which at least eight Iraqis were reported killed and 13 wounded. The deadly incident occurred when a convoy of U.S. personnel protected by Blackwater security contractors came under small arms fire. Blackwater returned fire, resulting in the Iraqi deaths. The loss of life has provoked anger in Baghdad, where the Interior Ministry has suspended Blackwater's license to operate around the country. Several Iraqi government officials have indicated their opposition to Blackwater's continued presence in their country. If the suspension is made permanent, it could significantly impair security for key U.S. personnel in the country, a U.S. official in Baghdad told TIME. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, whose State Department depends on Blackwater to protect its Iraq-based staffers, called Iraqi prime minister Nouri al-Maliki to say that the U.S. has launched its own investigation into the matter.
According to the incident report, the skirmish occurred at 12:08 p.m. on Sunday when, "the motorcade was engaged with small arms fire from several locations" as it moved through a neighborhood of west Baghdad. "The team returned fire to several identified targets" before leaving the area. One vehicle engine was hit and disabled by bullets and had to be towed away. A separate convoy arriving to help was "blocked/surrounded by several Iraqi police and Iraqi national guard vehicles and armed personnel," the report says. Then an American helicopter hovered over the traffic circle, as the U.S. convoy departed without casualties. Some reports have said the helicopter also opened fire on Iraqis, but a Blackwater official told TIME that no shots were fired from the air.
Some eyewitnesses said the fighting began after an explosion detonated near the U.S. convoy, but the incident report does not reflect that. The Blackwater official declared that, contrary to some reports from Iraq, "the convoy was violently attacked by armed insurgents, not civilians, and our people did their job, they fired back to defend human life." The official said that "Blackwater is contracted to work in a war zone, its personnel are under frequent fire, and all the rules of engagement permit them to defend themselves."
Blackwater, a security company based in Moyock, North Carolina, has more than 1,000 personnel in Iraq, most protecting senior State Department personnel and others carrying out sensitive work in the country. Founded by former Navy SEAL Erik Prince, the firm is privately held and secretive. Last week U.S. ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker testified to the Senate that the State Department is overwhelmingly dependent on contractors like Blackwater for its security. As he put it, "There is simply no way at all that the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security could ever have enough full-time personnel to staff the security function in Iraq. There is no alternative except through contracts."
Crocker added, "The capability and courage of the individuals who provide security under contract is worthy of respect of all Americans." As an example of the dangers faced by private security personnel in the country, he cited a Blackwater helicopter that crashed in Iraq last Monday. "One of Blackwater's helicopters went down yesterday — a hostile fire incident," the Ambassador said. "Fortunately no one was killed in that accident, but over 30 of our contract security Americans have been killed keeping the rest of us safe." A Blackwater official confirmed Crocker's account of the incident.
A spokesman for Iraq's Interior Ministry has told reporters it has cancelled Blackwater's license and will launch an investigation into whether excessive force was used in the incident. But, in spite of that declaration, which was carried on wire reports, a senior Iraqi official contacted by TIME said that prime minister Maliki is expected to discuss the episode at a cabinet session scheduled for Tuesday and that, as far as the license being permanently revoked, "it's not a done deal yet."
However, the Iraqi official also said he had spoken with at least two cabinet members about yesterday's shooting and that some in the government have "been upset about Blackwater for a while now. They want them to get out," said the advisor. The State Department said Secretary Rice called prime minister Maliki on Monday is expected to occur later on Monday. She expressed her regret for the loss of life in the incident, assuring him that the U.S. will conduct its own investigation and inform the Iraqi government of its progress. House Oversight Committee Chairman Henry Waxman announced Monday he will launch an investigation into the incident as well, calling it "an unfortunate demonstration of the perils of excessive reliance on private security contractors."
Well hell, I've killed a handful innocent people myself but not after my rules of engagement were adhered to. It sounds like Blackwater was in the right to me. Ask any law enforcement officer or military man (marinr00 or manimal) if he will return fire when he's being shot at and I can guarantee the answer will be yes.
But that was the ultimate purpose of State Department contractors. If something goes wrong just make them go away.
But that was the ultimate purpose of State Department contractors. If something goes wrong just make them go away.
Yeah, they were like totally on the moral highground there.
I really hope this is a missed attempt at sarcasm....
It sounds great to think that you'd somehow not defend your life when ****heads with AKs are shooting at you from a crowd of people, but believe me, all you're gonna want to do is get away if possible (and what any protection personnel want, because they don't want a protectee near any kind of fight), or end the threat to your life by all means if you can't. Either of which will very likely require shooting back at someone hiding among other people, dressed like them, and trying to blend into the chaos they're creating.
Admittedly, this is a favored tactic of the enemy, because it plays you into their political hands 100%, but that becomes an abstract concern on the individual level when you could die.
Anyhow, this sort of situation is unfortunately pretty common, and it's obvious the GoI has simply chosen to assert itself at this time to show its strength. Great PR stunt, given the baggage that comes with the name "Blackwater." Unfortunately, they've made a really poor choice, because if this comes to anything, they're going to inhibit the diplomatic relations they need to stay afloat themselves. They are completely impotent, and need the US to stay if they're going to remain anything but a hollow, irrelevant shell as local communities and leaders assert their real power over the Iraqi terrain. (Which is one reason why this whole idea of toppling Saddam and imposing a central democratic government was completely bat**** from the start, but that's another story...)
My guess, though? This declaration has no effect on the ground. Perhaps it's used by the GoI to leverage some other decision they'd like to see the US make.
what the f**k do yo two knuckle head think war (combat) is about?
if you dont kill you will be killed, blackwater had every right and was doing what they were trained to stay alive from what I have read. it just so happens iraqis that day were tired of collateral damage.
if you think you can just "talk" poeple out of a gun fight you are sadly mistaken.
for instance, you are standing on a checkpoint and inspecting all the vehicles that come through. there are signs that specifically state to slow down and turn off your engine every 1/4 mile for 1 mile before the check point in the native language.
a car is moving 60 mile per hour and heading right for you while one person in the car is shooting at you. what do you do?
in my line of work I want to come home, so I return fire. it isnt untill the whole ordeal is done and justified by my commanders that I was in the right, that we find there was a family inside the car. wife, 4 kids, it seemed dad had just snapped.
this situation is a common occurance in the middle east, not just iraq or afganistan but also egypt and africa right now.
next time you scoff at me in a vain attempt to present yourself as intellegent or witty realize you have no idea what you are talking about.
if you still think blackwater was in the wrong or I am being sarcastic I invite you to do this........
fly to kuwait, get a rental car and just drive around town. dont even go into iraq, just kuwait. you dont hear anything in the news about kuwait only iraq or afganistan. I can promise if you make it back alive you will have changed your mind on how you think. untill then ablidge me since I have been there first hand and know the facts.
You'll find that Chang and MMike don't have much sympathy for anyone who is put or has put themselves (which, this being a volunteer/contract business is everyone) into a situation where they might have to kill or be killed in a foreign country. Not really worth arguing over.
thier ignorance smells like douche water and burnt latex
Just cuz I don't with you or your career choices, it don't make me ignurnt...