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Brake pads

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Sandwich, May 8, 2017.

  1. Electric_City

    Electric_City Monkey

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    A heads up about Kool-stop.

    On their web page it states that the same pads are used on the Hope E4 and V4. I can tell you that they're not.

    The E4 and Mono M4 are the same pads, Fwiw.

    The E4 pads are slightly smaller in length. 3mm to be exact. If you try to put the V4's in the E4's they won't fit.

    The E4 pads in the V4 caliper rock back and forth when you hold the brake and push/pull the bike. I think that can lead to damaging the caliper, snapping the pin causing you to lose your pads/brakes altogether or the pads getting jammed on the rivets of the disc.

    They also reference "Tech 4 E4" which don't exist. I believe they mean "Tech 3 E4".

    Don't buy the Kool-stop pads for Hope brakes at least.


    Screenshot_2017-05-18-07-36-41.png
     
    #41 -   May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  2. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    magura will not warranty their brakes if you run anything other than magura blood or pads. I read a blurb that they advise against sintered pads....I guess I don't really need to worry about warranty since I run pentosin for fluid...
     
  3. djjohnr

    djjohnr Turbo Monkey

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    How would they ever know? If you had to send them in just push some of their oil through and swap the pads, or better yet don't send em in with pads.
     
  4. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Maybe it's been asked here since I'm blind but I've seen Vital or someone claiming Rachel runs one organic and one sintered pad. Can anyone explain why?
     
  5. troy

    troy Monkey

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    Probably due to vibration issues on trek frames - that is one of the solutions to this problem. They do run some vibration dampers on their brakes too.
     
  6. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    A pic for comparison. V4 is the slightly longer pad, the E4 is the dark coloured backing.

    Hope pads.jpg
     
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  7. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    See post #19 - although other pros have done this in the past too and it's for different reasons. In Shimano the sintered pads have more bite so I don't see any point in running one organic pad (especially because their heatsink solution is awesome). It could be for vibration reasons on Trek like troy said, and in the past Peat (I think) ran one each on Saints to reduce bite.

    In other brands though, I've found the semi-sintered pads (EBC Red, Galfer Red, Formula semi-sintered, and to a lesser extent the TruckerCo semis) have more bite in the dry than the sintered pads - plus they have much more consistent bite through their wear life because they wear fast enough to avoid glazing. However organic/semi pads perform poorly in the wet, so you can have a useful combination of the benefits by running one of each. This definitely doesn't apply to all semi/organic pads though, you have to pick a good one to reap any benefit.

    That's a bit silly, I was surprised that they didn't make a sintered pad for their brake, now this.
     
    #47 -   May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  8. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    @Udi, are you still running Shimano road pads in your ROs?
     
  9. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    I was but the whole brakeset got moved to my trailbike (still has those pads), the DH now has the same levers mated to Hayes Prime calipers for a bit more power on 650b.
     
  10. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Cool. They're working well though? I'm due for new pads soon, and the Shimano heat sinks are nice.
     
  11. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    @HAB Yeah I had no problems with them, only complaint from memory was the pad area was slightly smaller (height) but I'd run them again. They seemed harder to glaze than the Formula sintered pads which was good. I also liked the Formula semi-sintered pads for bite (I used the alloy-backed ones) but they wear a bit fast.

    Maybe try one pair first to see if you like them?
     
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  12. 6thElement

    6thElement Turbo Monkey

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    Which model of Shimano pads will work in Formula RO calipers?
    I think I've still got spare Formula pads, but nice to know for the future.
     
  13. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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  14. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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  15. Electric_City

    Electric_City Monkey

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    Just to clear up what Toodles wrote, the color of the back plate has nothing to do with which brake it's for (E4 vs V4). The V4's come with 2 different pads when you purchase them new- the Red backing and the Gold backing. The gold ones squeal like a pig. The Red ones wear down faster, but still last a season and don't kill the disc.

    The E4's measure 3mm shorter than the V4's. 39mm < 42mm respectively. 20170517_213508.jpg 20170517_213611.jpg
     
    #55 -   May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  16. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    He didn't say it did - that info was only to identify the pads in that particular picture.

    The red-backed Hope pads are actually Galfer Red semi-sintered, an excellent pad.
     
  17. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    Yup, i've got a set of sintered pads to try next pad change. Running the semi-sintered for now and they're still bedding in so too early to make the call. They do lose some bite in the wet though but will confirm once they're bedded and ridden in the wet again.

    I used to quite like the standard sintered pads that I had from Shimano in my old Saints. I'm 99.9% sure they'll fit straight in my V4 calipers as well so might give that a go next time I have to change the pads on the V4s. The pad length and braking material height are practically identical, just the height from the retention pin to the braking material seems to differ.
     
  18. troy

    troy Monkey

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    I would not be surprised if the original magura pads were made by Galfer too, as they do makes the rotors for magura (at least they did some time ago)
     
  19. Electric_City

    Electric_City Monkey

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    I first thought he meant that only E4's are red. But after re-reading it I got that he meant in that particular picture. Hence my edit.

    While we're here though, you said the red's are semi-sintered. What are the gold screamers?

    Also, what's the difference between organic, semi-metallic, semi-sintered, sintered etc... There seems to be this thing where different companies use different terms or are they actually different compounds altogether?
     
  20. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    The gold ones are full-sintered. You could probably try Shimano for a better full-sintered pad.

    They are just different terms - full sintered implies 100% metal construction (sintered = powdered metal solidified by heat/pressure). These are not all created alike but good ones have pretty good bite, work better in wet conditions, and last long. Everything else usually has some metal particles (hence "semi") and other compounds (can be synthetic or organic). Again, not all created the same - but the best ones have more bite than full-sintered pads and are less prone to glazing. The tradeoff is usually inferior wet weather performance and faster wear.

    Full-sintered pads also transfer more heat to the caliper/fluid (while non-metallic pad materials act as insulators) which is why some brakes may warn against them.
     
  21. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    I thought it was

    Organic
    Semi-metallic
    Metallic/sintered

    Organic being lower bite and shorter lasting with less noise

    Metallic having higher bite, longer lasting, better heat resistance, and the potential for more noise.

    Semi-metallic being a mixture of the two.

    That's why, I thought, virtually all high end brakes come with sintered pads, except for magura because they're german.
     
  22. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Yeah maybe, but I've found most "organic" pads have metallic particles (thus are semi-metallic), and if they don't I'd probably avoid them for DH use anyway.

    Either way, I think it's safest to talk about pads by referencing the exact brand and model because even under these vague designation umbrellas, there's a lot of variations between different pads.
     
  23. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    Don't organic pads have the strongest bite but the shortest life?
     
  24. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    I loved my EBC red but Jesus those lasted a moment. Thanks for the reply. It makes sense. Also thank @troy
     
  25. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Yeah that was my understanding, but I think these days it's got something to do with vegans.

     
  26. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    I've been looking into this and it actually seems that the 9.1 pads (the one piece setup) comes in either performance or comfort (blue back). My pads are 9.1. I'm checking with magura, but I'm guessing that the performance difference may come from the 4 pad setup vs. 2 pads.

    I am very tempted to get those chinese pads but I don't have pad pins. I'm willing to bet they are the supplier for almost all brands on the market. Even the swisstop pads seem to have a similar construction. Anybody know if they are cross compatible between brands? I don't want to spend $25 on titanium posts.
     
  27. marshalolson

    marshalolson Turbo Monkey

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    there is a "race" compound (8.R) from Magura on the 4-piece pads. no idea what it is. Pretty sure the OEM 4-piece pads come with the screws. BTI has all of them in stock, feel free to PM if you need help sourcing them.
     
  28. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    Thanks for the heads up! Yes I just discovered those after emailing magura today. It looks like the 8.r is a sintered compound, based on what they told me. They also confirmed that the mt5s ship with performance pads. I'm not getting 8.1 performance pads in that case.
     
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  29. djjohnr

    djjohnr Turbo Monkey

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    Nice find!
     
  30. maxyedor

    maxyedor <b>TOOL PRO</b>

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    For wear reference, this Conti Trail King went in the same day as the rear pads. So that's about half a tire from a set of rear tires

    %5BURL=http://s50.photobucket.com/user/max...93B5-8DD50DF9CCBF_zpszbicgpni.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

    %5BURL=http://s50.photobucket.com/user/max...BABB-D492C530B8A4_zpsthqox9mn.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

    Hedging my bets, fingers crossed the China pads work though, at that price I don't even care if they glaze

    %5BURL=http://s50.photobucket.com/user/max...8994-BFA290007C5C_zpsvkifjzbi.png[/IMG][/URL]
     
  31. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    I can't see any of your photos, but best of luck with the china pads. I imagine they'll be fine. For me, I need pins too, and @ $25 for a set of 4 with two pins for the 8.r pads, that's hard to beat. I just want to find $15 worth of gear to add to my cart to get free shipping, otherwise it's $28 a pair.
     
  32. maxyedor

    maxyedor <b>TOOL PRO</b>

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    Photobucket mobile sucks!

    Where are you ordering the R pads from? Couldn't find them online in my brief search. Still undecided on even keeping the Mt5s, but I always liked the sintered Magura brand pads on previous brakes.
     
  33. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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  34. djjohnr

    djjohnr Turbo Monkey

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    Sandwich, what are you running for rotors? The Magura rotors are thicker than most; I found switching to their rotors pushed the bite point out and gave a perceived increase in power.
     
  35. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    Formulas that came stock on my bike. I had read the same, that maguras are thicker, however I just can't believe that with fat pads and a good bleed, you could tell the difference. Clearance is really minimal on these brakes too.

    I don't think it's the engagement of the brake, I just think organic pads can't hold up to DH racing at real parks. The trails that I complain about my brakes on put the hurt on a lot of different braking systems.
     
  36. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    I run Magura MTS calipers. Worst rotor performance - Magura Storm & Galfer Wave. Best performance - Formula $9 rotors. Okay performance but $$ - Avid Centerline.
     
  37. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    that's weird. doesn't surprise me with how weird magura is though.

    when you did your frankebraking, did you use magura olives and barbs? some combo of the two? or shimano? the magura barb is a little bit different than the shimano, and supposedly the magura hoses are larger in diameter than shimano. I dunnolol.
     
  38. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    Both Magura and Galfer rotors were soft, little stopping power, deep gouging quickly.

    Honestly I don't remember. I think I used Magura olives and barbs.
     
  39. troy

    troy Monkey

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    When i was shortening the stock Magura hoses, I've used Shimano olives and barbs. No problems at all.
     
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  40. johnbryanpeters

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    Sapphire martini, up, one Shimano olive.