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Cannondale Prophet frame weight

bdamschen

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2005
3,377
156
Spreckels, CA
Anyone know how about how much a large frame would weigh or could point me in the right direction to find out? I checked cannondale's web site, but there's no weight listed.
 

bdamschen

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2005
3,377
156
Spreckels, CA
This thread has some build weights, which is pretty much what I've been able to satisfy myself with at the moment.

I'm currently torn between a heckler or a prophet or a mkIII for a trail bike, but the prophet is winning out because you can adjust the geo for more dh oriented fun.

The mkIII frame is at 6lbs, the heckler at 6.4... what would be really rad would be to find out the weights for the prophet and the prophet MX.

My current build would put everything but the frame at ~22 lbs, and I don't want to go too much over 30. Would over 8 lbs be impossible for a prohphet? Where are the e-speculators when I need them? :D
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
This thread has some build weights, which is pretty much what I've been able to satisfy myself with at the moment.

I'm currently torn between a heckler or a prophet or a mkIII for a trail bike, but the prophet is winning out because you can adjust the geo for more dh oriented fun.

The mkIII frame is at 6lbs, the heckler at 6.4... what would be really rad would be to find out the weights for the prophet and the prophet MX.

My current build would put everything but the frame at ~22 lbs, and I don't want to go too much over 30. Would over 8 lbs be impossible for a prohphet? Where are the e-speculators when I need them? :D
The boss at the shop and I discussed this yesterday. I would get a Prophet MX over a Heckler.

While the Heckler is a hot bike, Cannondale welds are far superior to any other aluminum frame from a large manufacturer. They also hydroformed the rear triangle way before any other single pivot manufacturer.

I rather get the 12mm thru axle for the improved stiffness. I would prefer going with a Pike or 36 for travel adjustment and wheel compatibility, but the Lefty Max is a lighter fork than both of those.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
So you haven't see the new Heckler then:clue: The Prophet is now the one that is old in the tooth.

Its has hydroforming, lifetime warranty on bearings, 6069, comes in anodized finish, more travel, and it has a lower leverage ratio than the Prophet. A 10mm thru-axle works just fine and you can run a DT-swiss RWS for a psuedo maxlish rear end:lighten:

Weight 6 lbs 9 oz. size large anodized frame with RP23

 

bdamschen

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2005
3,377
156
Spreckels, CA
Ooooh...


Explain to me the whole thru axle thing out back? would I have to run some sort of funky hub for a 10mm? Can I use just regular qr on the new heckler?
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
You can use a 10mm thru axle hub on any QR bike. It has regular dropouts.

I have a Hadley 10mm axle in the pictured photo, there was a supplier issue so my RWS shipped separately.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
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SF
So you haven't see the new Heckler then:clue: The Prophet is now the one that is old in the tooth.

Its has hydroforming, lifetime warranty on bearings, 6069, comes in anodized finish, more travel, and it has a lower leverage ratio than the Prophet. A 10mm thru-axle works just fine and you can run a DT-swiss RWS for a psuedo maxlish rear end:lighten:

Weight 6 lbs 9 oz. size large anodized frame with RP23
I saw one a year before they were available and I have ridden both. I don't dislike the Heckler, especially since I work for a SC/Cannondale dealer. And being in Norkal, I will probably sell 5 SC to 1 C/Dale.

But the Heckler is made in Taiwan and I can tell you the American QC is much higher. I like the swingarm better of the Prophet too. I am not too saavy with leverage ratios, so if you could clue me in, that would be great.

The Prophet MX is not a puny bike in any way. But either a Heckler or a Prophet you can't go wrong.


 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Heckler v5 - 2.5" stroke to get 6"
Prophet MX - 2" stroke to get 5.5"

Heckler has lower leverage ratio - in theory - easier on the shock, more controllable, lower pressures, and it will work better for Clydesdales. HT is warrantied with up to a 170mm fork too. Pricing and wider range of spec is available on the Heckler IMHO.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
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SF
Heckler v5 - 2.5" stroke to get 6"
Prophet MX - 2" stroke to get 5.5"

Heckler has lower leverage ratio - in theory - easier on the shock, more controllable, lower pressures, and it will work better for Clydesdales. HT is warrantied with up to a 170mm fork too. Pricing and wider range of spec is available on the Heckler IMHO.
Thanks for the info. I thought you might have been talking about the shock placement.

The Heckler is definitely cheaper. Cannondales always cost more than Taiwanese bikes, but I think it is worth it.

I have to ask the C/Dale rep if they will change the geo for the MX next year. Basically, it is a stock Prophet with a thru12 rear triangle. They should beef up and slacken it to compete with the Heckler.

edit: C/Dale lists the regular Prophet at 5.25 lbs. Assuming that is without shock, add 1lb for a DHX Air and you get 6.25lbs, if you believe C/Dale.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
I have to ask the C/Dale rep if they will change the geo for the MX next year. Basically, it is a stock Prophet with a thru12 rear triangle. They should beef up and slacken it to compete with the Heckler.
Ah, NO...heh. Didn't you notice the Prophet has the dual shock mount position for 69 and 67.5 - its angles aren't that different than the Heckler (v4 and v5) have the same geometry. Maybe they should raise the BB slightly though, its pretty low in the slack position...

Here is the v5 Heckler geometry:

http://www.santacruzmtb.com/heckler.5/index.php?geometry=1&x=-5

I don't put too much stock in Cannondale's sanded welds. I don't go so far as to call them Crack'n Fail like some people do though. Taiwan can make whatever quality you want to spec - that doesn't make any difference.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
edit: C/Dale lists the regular Prophet at 5.25 lbs. Assuming that is without shock, add 1lb for a DHX Air and you get 6.25lbs, if you believe C/Dale.
Yeah thats probably a petite, their weights and geometry are pretty similar.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,241
20,022
Sleazattle
Ah, NO...heh. Didn't you notice the Prophet has the dual shock mount position for 69 and 67.5 - its angles aren't that different than the Heckler (v4 and v5) have the same geometry. Maybe they should raise the BB slightly though, its pretty low in the slack position...

Here is the v5 Heckler geometry:

http://www.santacruzmtb.com/heckler.5/index.php?geometry=1&x=-5

I don't put too much stock in Cannondale's sanded welds. I don't go so far as to call them Crack'n Fail like some people do though. Taiwan can make whatever quality you want to spec - that doesn't make any difference.

Cannondale does not sand their welds, they go over them a second time without adding filler material. This is supposed to ensure proper penetration and smooths out the welds. Cannondale does have a kick ass warranty.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
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Cannondale does not sand their welds, they go over them a second time without adding filler material. This is supposed to ensure proper penetration and smooths out the welds. Cannondale does have a kick ass warranty.
Lifetime even on the DH bikes, as the C/Dale rep reminded me yesterday.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Cannondale does not sand their welds, they go over them a second time without adding filler material. This is supposed to ensure proper penetration and smooths out the welds. Cannondale does have a kick ass warranty.
Cannondale does not agree with you:

Hand-Finished Welds. The beautiful welds on every Cannondale frame are hand-sanded to eliminate stress risers. The elimination of stress risers allows us to use lighter, thinner tubes without compromising the strength of our frames.
From this page: http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/03/cusa/model-3RS6Y.html
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
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Cannondale does not agree with you:
Hand-Finished Welds. The beautiful welds on every Cannondale frame are hand-sanded to eliminate stress risers. The elimination of stress risers allows us to use lighter, thinner tubes without compromising the strength of our frames.
I chatted with boss just now, who has been selling Cannondales since the early 90's. He said Cannondale only does one weld pass, with a lot of filler material, and then sand it down.

I thought about the second pass, and considering that aluminum and steel weakens from heat, double welds seems like a bad idea.

Edit: I am guess wrong about this too!

Dirt Rag said:
The smooth finish is created by a two-pass, puddle welding technique that Cannondale employs. Cannondale points out that their welding technique produces better penetration than welds that exhibit the typical "stack of dimes" appearance.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
I chatted with boss just now, who has been selling Cannondales since the early 90's. He said Cannondale only does one weld pass, with a lot of filler material, and then sand it down.
Yeah - I was told the same as your boss. If was so great a technique how come its use isn't that widespread by others?

I thought about the second pass, and considering that aluminum and steel weakens from heat, double welds seems like a bad idea.
Especially with thin oversized big tubes...
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Yeah - I was told the same as your boss. If was so great a technique how come its use isn't that widespread by others?
You know that is a bad argument to question why does only one company perform this welding method. Could be from it costs more to that it requires higher trained workers.

Unfortunately I know nothing about welding so I could not tell you if a two pass weld is better than a single, "dime" style pass.

Possibly what Westy gave, a more complete penetration, might be the reason. If done correctly, it could be just as quick as a single pass.

All I can absolutely say is that there is an engineering reason for this, not a cost-cutting rationale.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
All I can absolutely say is that there is an engineering reason for this, not a cost-cutting rationale.
No doubt. To suggest that Cannondale sands over their welds so as to cover up shoddy workmanship is a little sill to me. Plenty of capable welders out there.
 

ash3r

Chimp
May 7, 2007
2
0
from this link:

http://www.dirtragmag.com/web/article.php?ID=831
---------------------------------------------------------

And now a word about Cannondale's hallmark smooth weld bead. It's a common misconception that said weld bead requires sanding to achieve its smooth finish. In fact, the weld bead is smooth, right out of the weld booth. The smooth finish is created by a two-pass, puddle welding technique that Cannondale employs. Cannondale points out that their welding technique produces better penetration than welds that exhibit the typical "stack of dimes" appearance. Better penetration results in a stronger joint. Furthermore, the high and low spots on stack of dimes weld beads may act as stress risers—a potential compromise of weld durability.

Finishing Touches

The minor amount of sanding that the weld beads do receive is done to remove weld spatter and slight surface imperfections. As a matter of routine, the head tubes and bottom brackets are re-reamed to clean out their bore after welding.

Cannondale uses 6061 aluminum alloy in all of its bicycles. There are sexier, ultra high strength, aluminum alloys available, but Cannondale favors 6061 due to its superior formability, weldability and machinability. Manufacturability is important when you're running a factory that is capable of cranking out around 400 bikes per day. Thanks to the magic of heat treatment, the 6061 alloy can reach sufficiently high strength values.

Speaking of heat treatment, each welded frame receives an initial stress-relief heat treatment, followed by a frame alignment. Then the frame gets a second, metallurgical heat treatment that leads to the 6061 alloy developing its high strength properties. A second frame alignment is performed immediately after the second heat treatment, while the frame is relatively ductile (before the alloy has had time to age to its final high-strength condition.)

At this point frames may either continue into production or go into the unfinished goods warehouse where Cannondale keeps a stock of unfinished frames. As orders come in, batches of the unfinished frames are released from the warehouse into production. Yet another example of Cannondale's flexible manufacturing philosophy.

Frames continuing along the production line go into a prep process that chemically cleans and electrostatically charges them prior to painting. After painting the frames are inspected and decals are applied. At this point the frames are ready for assembly.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,669
1,713
chez moi
The boss at the shop and I discussed this yesterday. I would get a Prophet MX over a Heckler.

While the Heckler is a hot bike, Cannondale welds are far superior to any other aluminum frame from a large manufacturer. They also hydroformed the rear triangle way before any other single pivot manufacturer.

I rather get the 12mm thru axle for the improved stiffness. I would prefer going with a Pike or 36 for travel adjustment and wheel compatibility, but the Lefty Max is a lighter fork than both of those.
I have a Prophet 4x if you want to take a look/ride...

Ed-Duh, you work for a CDale dealer. Disregard.
 

Summit

Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
369
0
here 'n there
FYI my Prophet MX lists head angles on the frame as 67 and 65.5, although Cannondale's site says the Prophet and MX have the same angles. My totally unfounded guess is that they just go with the slacker angles due to the longer forks spec'd on the MX. Although those are different too...the MX1 comes with a 160mm 36 Float, and the MX2 (what I have) comes with a 140mm Pike. Go figure. I've been running mine in the 67 degree setting and it feels just right to me - and I prefer my bikes with slacker HA's.

LOVE the bike. I took it on a few rides in SLC and it climbs beautifully. Descending it feels absolutely bomber stable, but is also very easy to move around on the trail. It's a beautifully built frame too, I was super impressed when I was putting it together. I'm doing a few upgrades right now, will post pics when done.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Same frame angles, different fork heights. The taller forks on the MX slackens the frame angles.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,669
1,713
chez moi
I was looking at the All-Mtn 1 2006 model, 130mm travel (found a great deal on leftover new ones...), but it looked like it'd be too tall for the bike, IMHO...opinions from anyone who knows? I'm riding a Manitou Sherman 130mm travel right now, and it's over an inch shorter...don't think I'd want to go any taller than it is. Some guys on mtbr seem happy with them, but they just look way too awkward to me.