[boogenman]

I guess it is a good idea but less than 1% of the population is going to benefit from this program.

Stimulus my balls!

Come up with something better Obama!

Summary: Once signed into law, the program will allow consumers to trade in older, dirtier vehicles in exchange for a voucher of up to $4,500 to help pay for the purchase or qualified lease of a new, more fuel-efficient vehicle.
The program will be authorized through November 1, 2009.
The trade-in vehicles must:
• Be in drivable condition.
• Be continuously insured and registered to the same owner for at least one year.
• Have a combined fuel economy value of 18 mpg or less (Work trucks must be pre-2002 regardless of mpg).
• Not be more than 25 years old with historic or aesthetic value.. These vehicles are valued by hobbyists or are a valuable source of restoration parts.
New vehicles
• The new vehicle must have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of less than $45,000.
• Passenger Cars: The older vehicle must get 18 mpg or less. New passenger cars with mileage of at least 22 mpg are eligible for vouchers. If the mileage of the new car is at least 4 mpg higher than the old vehicle, the voucher will be worth $3,500. If the mileage of the new car is at least 10 mpg higher than the old vehicle, the voucher will be worth $4,500.
• Small Trucks and SUVs: The old vehicle must get 18 mpg or less. New small trucks or SUVs with mileage of at least 18 mpg are eligible for vouchers. If the mileage of the new truck or SUV is at least 2 mpg higher than the old vehicle, the voucher will be worth $3,500. If the mileage of the new truck or SUV is at least 5 mpg higher than the old vehicle, the voucher will be worth $4,500.
• Large Light-Duty Trucks: The old vehicle must get 18 mpg or less. New large trucks (pick-ups and vans weighing between 6,000 and 8,500 pounds) with mileage of at least 15 mpg are eligible for vouchers. If the mileage of the new truck is at least 1 mpg higher than the old truck, the voucher will be worth $3,500. If the mileage of the new truck is at least 2 mpg higher than the old truck, the voucher will be worth $4,500.

 

[Sandwich]

I'm surprised there's no "must buy domestic" clause. I'm so glad they have something that prevents people from just going out and buying a junker car and then tryng to cash in on this. It would be such a scam to see that going down.

 

[jimmydean]

And why is this dumb? What did I miss?

 

[boogenman]

What did you miss?

Not many people are driving around junk trucks and SUV's that are in the market for a NEW car or SUV.

This may stir up 2-4 more sales a MONTH at a dealership but that is not much at all. No stimulating sales there.

Repair shops have been losing business due to people anticipating this being passed. Once theses people learn the rules they are going to be pretty disapointed.

My opinion would be a program that would allow a much larger chunk of the population to qualify for this program. Maybe offer a smaller voucher to people trading in a gas guzzler that is not junk. Like $1,000 for your 2006 Ford Explorer on top of trade in value. That would be a good idea.

I know this program is two-fold, to get gas guzzlers off the road and to stimulate the economy but as I see it there will not be much of anything the way the rules are now. In the North East there are not many people driving around older trucks and SUV's like other places in the country.

 

[jimmydean]

But the point of the cash for clunkers is to get the cars OFF the road. Meaning they are gone, squashed, recycled, and shredded, not sold on the back lot for cheap.

So if you got $1000 for your Ford Explorer, it would then be sold for $1000 less to the next jackass, therefore NOT being off the road, just changing hands. While that creates sales, it doesn't do a bit of good for the climate.

Not saying the 2-3 cars a month will make a HUGE impact, but they will make a larger impact than ZERO.

 

[jimmydean]

Also, offering $4500 on top of current incentives and other deals MIGHT entice someone to go shopping for a new ride, that is the idea of stimulation.

Not saying it's the best program ever, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

 

[boogenman]

I know it is a step in the right direction. I just thought it would end up being better than it is.


At least Jon Kranked can get a new ride on the cheap.

 

[jimmydean]

I know it is a step in the right direction. I just thought it would end up being better than it is.


At least Jon Kranked can get a new ride on the cheap.

Did you see the dealer requirements about NOT reselling the car, though? That is half the battle, removal of the old car. It's certainly not a sweeping change, but I'll be interested in seeing the stats.

I know the $8k new home buyer program isn't as hot as they thought it would be. But it's been 10 weeks since I sent in my 1040x and haven't seen squat.

 

[boogenman]

Yes i did see that. I am a dealer that is why I am bitching about it. Sales suck right now! We need something better.

 

[ridiculous]

I agree it could use some refinements but 1% of the population is still 3 million car owners. I am very surprised this isnt catered more to the domestic businesses. But I guess as long you buy something at this point your helping.

 

[jimmydean]

Yes i did see that. I am a dealer that is why I am bitching about it. Sales suck right now! We need something better.

I know that is your business, but you only pointed out the consumer side of the bill.

Again, would you have rather seen nothing?

I get a lot of flack in the motorcycle community because I want to work on developing sustainable motorcycles. Change makes people angry, it's a funny reaction, really.

 

[Sandwich]

Yes i did see that. I am a dealer that is why I am bitching about it. Sales suck right now! We need something better.

how are the genesis coupes selling? do the seats fold down?

 

[J-Dubs]

So it's not going to make everyone who gets low mileage buy a car, so what.
You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Besides, the Repubs wanted none of this, so be happy for what you got out of the spineless Dems.

As far as not seeing many old SUV's on the road in the NorthEast, I'm not sure where you're driving, but here in New England, older Explorers and cheap domestic land boats make up a significant percentage of what's on the road today. In fact, since the recession began, repair shops have been making out like bandits (in some cases more than others) because people are spending $1200 to keep a car running, rather than adding to their personal debt by buying/financing a new(er) vehicle. That's assuming they could get credit, and a dealer with any sense would give them a fraction of what their guzzler is worth. Car lots are full of traded in older SUV's that are sitting and rusting.

This plan makes sense for the consumer and the industry. Is it going to solve all the problems? Nope, but nobody was expecting that.

The only people who can complain right now are the charities, who's donations are going to take a huge hit because of this. But I can't stand those Kars for Kids radio ads.

 

[Sandwich]

I was going to say; pre-owned cars are the place to be right now...

 

[boogenman]

how are the genesis coupes selling? do the seats fold down?

Sales were soft as hell all spring but as of 2 or 3 weeks ago they are selling like hotcakes!

Rear Wheel drive=seats don't fold down

There is a lot of material back there to keep twisting to a minimum.

 

[boogenman]

In fact, since the recession began, repair shops have been making out like bandits (in some cases more than others) because people are spending $1200 to keep a car running, rather than adding to their personal debt by buying/financing a new(er) vehicle. That's assuming they could get credit, and a dealer with any sense would give them a fraction of what their guzzler is worth. Car lots are full of traded in older SUV's that are sitting and rusting.

I was having a talk with two guys that own repair shops. Both of them are less than pleased with this program. They said business has been way down the past 2 months because people are holding out for the $4,500 check.

Credit market is good, has been all along

Sales are bad but SUV market share is the same as it has been for years with the exception of last summer when gas was $4.50

 

[dan-o]

Car sales are going to continue to suck in relation to recent years so you may as well get used to it. The bottom line is the insanity of buying/leasing a new car every 3 years went the way of the home equity as ATM lifestyle.

My wife's 15yo mercedes wagon would seemingly be a good candidate for this program but there's no way I'll trade that in for $4500 and a car payment. It's dead reliable, virtually maintenance free, very safe, a pleasure to drive and not made of plastic. It just turned 100k so I figure it's got another 20 years of service left in it as long as the sunroof/lock/windows keep working. The 17/25 mpg is fine for the limited, local driving my wife does.

My truck will stay with me for around 10 years, which will be ~300k at current annual mileage. If it's still in good shape and the EPA has killed high-power diesels by that time I'll just repower what I've got.

 

[Runner]

• The new vehicle must have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of less than $45,000.

What does this achieve?

 

[boogenman]

What does this achieve?

Ask the president not me.

 

[boogenman]

Car sales are going to continue to suck in relation to recent years so you may as well get used to it. The bottom line is the insanity of buying/leasing a new car every 3 years went the way of the home equity as ATM lifestyle.

Car payments are a bitch!

I have been payment free for over 30 months now! Life is great, my car is not. After I shell out about $600, drink 2-3 cases of sierra Nevada, swear a ton and slam some wrenches on the ground the car will be 100% again. Oh and I will need to borrow a car for 2 days.

133k and counting

 

[ulockjustice]

I was having a talk with two guys that own repair shops. Both of them are less than pleased with this program. They said business has been way down the past 2 months because people are holding out for the $4,500 check.

you seem to be arguing two ways here. first you said that no one is going to use this program so its worthless. then you say that it (or its premise) was enough to make a noticeable drop in repair work. who cares? those people will go back to the repair shops if they deem the incentives to buy new not enough. otherwise i think the program is a step in the right direction (and similar programs in europe have been successful). if my old honda was included id prob at least think about buying a new one with a 4500 credit.

 

[jonKranked]

Life is great, my car is not. After I shell out about $600, drink 2-3 cases of sierra Nevada, swear a ton and slam some wrenches on the ground the car will be 100% again. Oh and I will need to borrow a car for 2 days.

Interesting... you fix your cars the same way you fix your bikes.

 

[boogenman]

Interesting... you fix your cars the same way you fix your bikes.

You must have me confused with Ih8rice

 

[Pesqueeb]

Did you see the dealer requirements about NOT reselling the car, though? That is half the battle, removal of the old car. .

I didn't realize that this meant the dealer could not resell the car, which I assume means no trade in value. So really, the only way this makes sense is if you have a car/truck that gets >18mpg and blue books for less than 4500 dollars correct?
I would totally trade in my wrangler for a mini or prius otherwise.

 

[nelsonjm]

Am I reading this correct?
-You will get up to 4500$.. meaning you will probably get less unless your car has lots of metal on it?
-You only get the "up to 4500$" and nothing more from the dealer since they are junking them, right?

 

[jimmydean]

I didn't realize that this meant the dealer could not resell the car, which I assume means no trade in value. So really, the only way this makes sense is if you have a car/truck that gets >18mpg and blue books for less than 4500 dollars correct?
I would totally trade in my wrangler for a mini or prius otherwise.

Hence the name "Clunker". The idea is to get the Exxon Valdez's of the world off the road FOR GOOD. Retire the crap cars of the late 70's and early 80's. It wouldn't make sense to take $4500 for a car that is worth more. But of you have an old El Dorado that burns more oil than gas, then it works out.

I remember when my grandfather was forced by my dad to trade his '72 Grand Torino in on a Lexus. The dealer gave him $900 on trade for big blue. Mac loved his old Ford, but when he got to be 90, he was a danger to society behind the wheel of a car that HUGE.

 

[jonKranked]

You must have me confused with Ih8rice

No way dude. Steve doesn't fix his bikes. He gets angry in the pits and borrows other people's parts.

 

[boogenman]

Am I reading this correct?
-You will get up to 4500$.. meaning you will probably get less unless your car has lots of metal on it?
-You only get the "up to 4500$" and nothing more from the dealer since they are junking them, right?

You will get $4,500 if you meet ALL the requirements.
Car example:• Passenger Cars: The older vehicle must get 18 mpg or less. New passenger
> cars with mileage of at least 22 mpg are eligible for vouchers. If the
> mileage of the new car is at least 4 mpg higher than the old vehicle, the
> voucher will be worth $3,500. If the mileage of the new car is at least 10
> mpg higher than the old vehicle, the voucher will be worth $4,500.

Correct, the dealer gets nothing. I am not sure how they are planning on paying the dealer to transport the cars to a salvage yard and then pay the Salvage yard to do what they need.

Example: Joe Blow has a chevy blazer that he trades in for a mini. $4500 towards the mini but he wants the blazer back, which he CAN do once the engine and tranny are ripped out. Who pays for that?

 

[jonKranked]

Example: Joe Blow has a chevy blazer that he trades in for a mini. $4500 towards the mini but he wants the blazer back, which he CAN do once the engine and tranny are ripped out. Who pays for that?

MMike would pay for a ripped out tranny.

 

[binary visions]

What does this achieve?

Uh, maybe to keep the stimulus in the hands of those who will benefit from it, not those buying $70k Mercedes, for whom the small amount of increased money gotten from the clunker is irrelevant?

 

[jimmydean]

Example: Joe Blow has a chevy blazer that he trades in for a mini. $4500 towards the mini but he wants the blazer back, which he CAN do once the engine and tranny are ripped out. Who pays for that?

Most recyclers will pay the dealership $500 or more, then come get the car. When I was towing, we would auction impounds after 30 days. If nobody wanted the car, "Pick and Pull" would pay $500 or more plus towing fees and we would deliver the car.

It's my understanding that Joe Blow CAN'T get his Blazer back under the terms of the program. Unless the dealership is not following the guidelines.

My friend has a '74 K10 Chevy that won't sell for $1000 on CL. That type of rig is perfect for this program because he could have replaced it with a more efficient newer truck.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Hence the name "Clunker". The idea is to get the Exxon Valdez's of the world off the road FOR GOOD. Retire the crap cars of the late 70's and early 80's. It wouldn't make sense to take $4500 for a car that is worth more. But of you have an old El Dorado that burns more oil than gas, then it works out.

I figured it was to good to be true the way I understood it. My 98 wrangler is hardley a "clunker", but it does get pretty crappy MPG. Guess I'll just keep it and get another scooter or a motorcycle. Gas is only gonna go back up.

 

[jimmydean]

I figured it was to good to be true the way I understood it. My 98 wrangler is hardley a "clunker", but it does get pretty crappy MPG. Guess I'll just keep it and get another scooter or a motorcycle. Gas is only gonna go back up.

If your Wrangler books out under $4500, then it could be worth it though.

<edit> KBB says a 1998 Jeep Wrangler SE Sport Utility 2D with 135k in fair condition is worth $2325 on trade. I would say in that case the $4500 is a solid deal.

 

[Pesqueeb]

If your Wrangler books out under $4500, then it could be worth it though.

<edit> KBB says a 1998 Jeep Wrangler SE Sport Utility 2D with 135k in fair condition is worth $2325 on trade. I would say in that case the $4500 is a solid deal.

I did a KBB, 2 door sport 4.0 liter (got the straight 6), with 105,000 (I ride my bike to work a lot), plus alloy wheels, etc, etc. and KBB says 4425 for trade in fair condition. So for now its looking like a push on the cash for clunkers program. I don't know if its worth picking up a car payment when I havn't had one in 5 years, even with the trade of in MPG. The straight 6 in those things is good for at least 200k properly maintained.

Thoughts?

 

[jimmydean]

Thoughts?

Yeah, the program is focused more on the less than stellar. I wish we would have had it when we tossed my wife Malibu for the Corolla. We got $1000 on trade and I was happy, but the Corolla is a 2003.

With the $4500, I would have been able to get a new Fit or a Yaris. But I know better than to buy brand new otherwise.

 

[J-Dubs]

I was having a talk with two guys that own repair shops. Both of them are less than pleased with this program. They said business has been way down the past 2 months because people are holding out for the $4,500 check.

Two shops in upstate hardly makes a representative sample. I got my reports from NPR and CNN.

market is good, has been all along

Despite every single news report to the contrary and dealers going under because of a lack of credit worthy customers.

are bad but SUV market share is the same as it has been for years with the exception of last summer when gas was $4.50

There are too many examples of this not being true.

 

[boogenman]

My friend has a '74 K10 Chevy that won't sell for $1000 on CL. That type of rig is perfect for this program because he could have replaced it with a more efficient newer truck.

Must be less than 25 years old.

You were correct, Joe Blow can't get it back. After the engine block and tranny are ripped out whoever ends up with the remaining parts can sell them or do whatever they want. I read it wrong the first time.

 

[boogenman]

Two shops in upstate hardly makes a representative sample. I got my reports from NPR and CNN.

I'm sure CNN and NPR also have a better representative example of life in the middle east for a Marine than the Marine himself.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Hence the name "Clunker". The idea is to get the Exxon Valdez's of the world off the road FOR GOOD. Retire the crap cars of the late 70's and early 80's. It wouldn't make sense to take $4500 for a car that is worth more. But of you have an old El Dorado that burns more oil than gas, then it works out.

I dunno... people driving $hitty cars from the 70s/80s are UNLIKELY to be in the market for a new car IMO. Even with the gummint handing them $5K to buy it.

 

[jimmydean]

I dunno... people driving $hitty cars from the 70s/80s are UNLIKELY to be in the market for a new car IMO. Even with the gummint handing them $5K to buy it.

I guess it's a gamble then, much like any other incentive programs. How many houses have sold as a result of $8k incentive?

Like boogenman said, 2-3 a month per dealership?

Again, I would have used tht program rather than buying my wife a used Toyota, but I was happy to be rid of the Malibu regardless.