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China, Korea and the US

eric strt6

Resident Curmudgeon
Sep 8, 2001
23,344
13,646
directly above the center of the earth
China's little secret about Korea

By Haesook Chae | Special Contributor
Posted March 3, 2003
Orlando, Sentinel


[ok lets have a fun debate on this one, monkies]

Why won't China rein in North Korea in the current
nuclear crisis? The answer lies in Beijing's secret
goal of getting U.S. troops off the peninsula.

The prevailing understanding on China is fundamentally
flawed. The consensus is that China shares common
interests with the United States and nations in the
region in denuclearizing North Korea. Therefore, it
ought to play an active and leading role in resolving
the crisis, especially because Beijing seems to have
the most leverage over North Korea.

Much to the disappointment of the United States,
however, China has excused itself from the "relevant
parties." Beijing insists that this is really a matter
exclusively between the United States and North Korea.
Furthermore, China does not believe that the
U.S.-North Korean dialogue ought to include the United
Nations; Beijing has vociferously opposed efforts to
bring in the world body to bear on the issue. The
question is, why?

The key to understanding China's behavior is realizing
that exclusively bilateral talks could produce what
China secretly craves: the removal of the U.S.
military presence from the Korean peninsula.

Ejection of the U.S. military presence is an essential
first step toward China's ultimate long-term goals:
reunification with Taiwan and reassertion as the
dominant regional power.

After a U.S. withdrawal, China would be likely to find
two friendly Koreas on its southern border. Post-Cold
War South Korea is no longer a hostile country but an
important trading partner. And if a united Korea
emerges, it would probably be amicable toward China.

Further, if Japan re-arms and goes nuclear in reaction
to the new circumstances on the Korean peninsula, the
rationale for the U.S. military presence there may be
diminished as well.

In this best-case scenario for China, with American
forces removed from Korea and Japan, Far East
geopolitics would enter a new era. China could
re-assert its historical status as the dominant
regional power and eventually re-absorb Taiwan.

This crisis may well drive the United States off the
Korean peninsula. With this in mind, why should China
help the United States to maintain its military
presence in South Korea by pressuring North Korea to
give up nuclear weapons?

That China appears constrained by anxieties over the
potential flood of starving refugees that would be
created by North Korea's economic collapse only serves
as a cover for China to prop up North Korea's
bargaining position. China's sales of a key chemical
ingredient for nuclear weapons development to North
Korea, as recently as December, should be understood
within this context. China wants North Korea to
maintain its strong leverage in any bilateral talks
with the United States.

Only when viewed from this perspective are China's
inaction and stubborn insistence on direct talks
between Pyongyang and Washington comprehensible;
indeed, it is a profound and brilliant strategy.

Haesook Chae is an assistant professor in the
political science department of Baldwin-Wallace
College in Ohio. He wrote this for the Los Angeles
Times, a Tribune Publishing newspaper.
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Originally posted by eric strt6
China's little secret about Korea

By Haesook Chae | Special Contributor
Posted March 3, 2003
Orlando, Sentinel


[ok lets have a fun debate on this one, monkies]

Why won't China rein in North Korea in the current
nuclear crisis? The answer lies in Beijing's secret
goal of getting U.S. troops off the peninsula.
Interesting view... probably as valid as many others.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by eric strt6
Further, if Japan re-arms and goes nuclear in reaction
to the new circumstances on the Korean peninsula, the
rationale for the U.S. military presence there may be
diminished as well.
I'm pretty sure that Japan is NOT allowed to re-arm -- that's one of the reasons we're there... we promised to protect Japan as long as they aren't fully militarized. IF Japan re-arms, that gives China full justification for a defensive first strike.


Here's the likely and sad timeline:

-- USA invades Iraq.
-- N.Korea freaks thinking they're next and they start offensive maneuvers.
-- USA moves more forces into that region.
-- N.Korea claims terrorial rights and starts attacking US units in questionable terrories.
-- Japan secretly starts to militarize.
-- N.Korea finds out and drops a nuke on Japan (don't think it won't or can't happen. NK's leader is cuckoo!)
-- Japan isn't destroyed -- NK only has a few nukes -- goes fully militarized.
-- China moves forces into position claiming Japan has broken the treaty by militarizing... but really, they're preparing for WWIII.
-- Europe moves move forces in in response to China. France has their one and only battleship there already.
-- Russia starts to mobilize.
-- Former Russian states use this as an excuse to mobilize... this is a good thing as it'll contain Russia for the meantime.
-- Britain takes back the Faulklan Islands ;)
-- Meanwhile, full scale war has broken out between NK and USA+Japan.
-- Iran takes advantage of a weakened or defeated Iraq and takes what they claim is theres.
-- Pakistan freaks thinking they're next and mobilizes
-- India freaks and/or takes advantage of this and moves troops to defend/invade Pakistan.
-- S.Africa launches an attack against Spike Lee.
-- War for Japan/USA isn't going well since USA has to distribute forces in defense/control of Iran and Pakistan.
-- Israel tells the USA to fvck off, steamrolls the Palistineans and prepares to take on Iran, Jordan, etc.
-- Former Russian states decide it's time for retalliation against Russia for all that crap.
-- China, while "friendly" with Russia doesn't feel the need to watch their back any more and takes Taiwan, negotiates with Korea and they occupy Japan. China is expansionistic while not as loony as NK and China spreads south with a handshake with Russian. Once Russia is weakened, China will roll through them too.
-- Finally, with the USA being weakened and spread thin, a cowardly France decides to attack ;)

Is this all from the USA attacking Iraq? No, of course not. But our actions are being interpreted as hostile by a whacko NK president who has nukes.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by LordOpie
I'm pretty sure that Japan is NOT allowed to re-arm -- that's one of the reasons we're there... we promised to protect Japan as long as they aren't fully militarized.
I thought Japan had a relatively large military?:confused:
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by ohio
I thought Japan had a relatively large military?:confused:
Japan's military can only serve as a self defense force. They're not large in a "go invade and conquer" sort of way.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Originally posted by LordOpie
I'm pretty sure that Japan is NOT allowed to re-arm -- that's one of the reasons we're there... we promised to protect Japan as long as they aren't fully militarized. IF Japan re-arms, that gives China full justification for a defensive first strike.


Here's the likely and sad timeline:

-- USA invades Iraq.
-- N.Korea freaks thinking they're next and they start offensive maneuvers.
-- USA moves more forces into that region.
-- N.Korea claims terrorial rights and starts attacking US units in questionable terrories.
-- Japan secretly starts to militarize.
-- N.Korea finds out and drops a nuke on Japan (don't think it won't or can't happen. NK's leader is cuckoo!)
-- Japan isn't destroyed -- NK only has a few nukes -- goes fully militarized.
-- China moves forces into position claiming Japan has broken the treaty by militarizing... but really, they're preparing for WWIII.
-- Europe moves move forces in in response to China. France has their one and only battleship there already.
-- Russia starts to mobilize.
-- Former Russian states use this as an excuse to mobilize... this is a good thing as it'll contain Russia for the meantime.
-- Britain takes back the Faulklan Islands ;)
-- Meanwhile, full scale war has broken out between NK and USA+Japan.
-- Iran takes advantage of a weakened or defeated Iraq and takes what they claim is theres.
-- Pakistan freaks thinking they're next and mobilizes
-- India freaks and/or takes advantage of this and moves troops to defend/invade Pakistan.
-- S.Africa launches an attack against Spike Lee.
-- War for Japan/USA isn't going well since USA has to distribute forces in defense/control of Iran and Pakistan.
-- Israel tells the USA to fvck off, steamrolls the Palistineans and prepares to take on Iran, Jordan, etc.
-- Former Russian states decide it's time for retalliation against Russia for all that crap.
-- China, while "friendly" with Russia doesn't feel the need to watch their back any more and takes Taiwan, negotiates with Korea and they occupy Japan. China is expansionistic while not as loony as NK and China spreads south with a handshake with Russian. Once Russia is weakened, China will roll through them too.
-- Finally, with the USA being weakened and spread thin, a cowardly France decides to attack ;)

Is this all from the USA attacking Iraq? No, of course not. But our actions are being interpreted as hostile by a whacko NK president who has nukes.
Why does this make me laugh? It's not funny, yet here I am laughing.:confused:
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Originally posted by BurlySurly
Japan's military can only serve as a self defense force. They're not large in a "go invade and conquer" sort of way.
The Japanese don't actually call their armed forces "the army" or "the navy" or "the air-force". Rather it's the "ground self-defence force", the "marine self defence force" and the "air self defence force". I believe Japan is the 4th biggest military spender in the world. All their stuff is pretty much top of the range. You're dead right though BS, while they obviously have some offensive capability they are constitutionally obligated to only provide defensive capabilities.
In recent times the Japanese government has come under pressure both internationally and domestically to be more "hawkish" in fulfilling it's military/peacekeeping type responsibilities. As I understand, the US also has a security treaty with Japan that obligates them to protect Japan in the event of an attack. In recent days more hawkish members of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party have been putting forth the view that Japan may need to arm itself with nuclear weapons to protect itself from North Korea and also suggested that Japan may attack North Korea in a pre-emptive strike if the Japanese believe a North Korean strike is imminent. This is of course heady stuff for the Japanese who since WW2 have been determinedly (some may say obstinately, others rightfully) pacifist.
I wouldn't say people are scared of North Korea here but they are definitely keeping a close eye on them. In my view North Korea are definitely a bigger danger than Iraq. Interestingly the Americans have been stressing bilateral and multilateral solutions to this "crisis" and their policy in this area has been much more constructive and well thought out than the "make it up as we go along" sort of thinking on the Iraq crisis.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by ummbikes
Why does this make me laugh? It's not funny, yet here I am laughing.:confused:
Cuz... it's absurd :( absurd is a form of uncomfortable humor.

Originally posted by valve bouncer
In recent days more hawkish members of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party have been putting forth the view that Japan may need to arm itself with nuclear weapons to protect itself from North Korea and also suggested that Japan may attack North Korea in a pre-emptive strike if the Japanese believe a North Korean strike is imminent. This is of course heady stuff for the Japanese who since WW2 have been determinedly (some may say obstinately, others rightfully) pacifist.
They must have a different meaning for LIberal Democratic Party then we do :p Alas, they cannot do a pre-emptive on NK for two reasons -- short-term: NK has a few nukes and would drop them. Range is too short to stop them so, what?, a third of Japan would be toast. Long-term: China won't allow a fully militarized Japan... that's where WWIII starts.

Originally posted by valve bouncer
This is of course heady stuff for the Japanese who since WW2 have been determinedly (some may say obstinately, others rightfully) pacifist.
Japan is one of the most successful countries ever in the history of Earth... granted with lots of our help. They've discovered that they can conquer through innovative capitalism. They should find every way possible to not go to war. Japan is the best example of the USA doing a regime change and following up with support. Too bad we haven't been able to do that with any other country where we did a regime change.


Live every day as it's your last... get out and ride :monkey: ride.
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by eric strt6
China's little secret about Korea

By Haesook Chae | Special Contributor
Posted March 3, 2003
Orlando, Sentinel


[ok lets have a fun debate on this one, monkies]

Why won't China rein in North Korea in the current
nuclear crisis? The answer lies in Beijing's secret
goal of getting U.S. troops off the peninsula.

The prevailing understanding on China is fundamentally
flawed. The consensus is that China shares common
interests with the United States and etc etc
Sounds highly plausible. Interesting.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by valve bouncer
The Japanese don't actually call their armed forces "the army" or "the navy" or "the air-force". Rather it's the "ground self-defence force", the "marine self defence force" and the "air self defence force". I believe Japan is the 4th biggest military spender in the world. All their stuff is pretty much top of the range. You're dead right though BS, while they obviously have some offensive capability they are constitutionally obligated to only provide defensive capabilities.
Germany's constitution also did not allow their troops to engage in combat on foreign soil. However this was changed (or at least waived) recently to allow German troops to be part of the peacekeeping force in Kosovo.

Constitutions can be amended.