Tell me ware you guys stand on this? I have bin doing a lot of looking at bikes the last 2 weeks and im seeing a lot of compact frames now. I have only ever ridden traditional frames. I kind of think the compact ones look stupid with long seat posts and long adjustable stems on them to make the bikes fit more people.
Compact VS traditional
- Thread starter Pulser955
- Start date
Well, I'd say it's all fashion and trend, but compact designs do have some interesting qualities. For example, that smaller frame will probably be lighter overall. Also stiffer, I think, though of course that's somewhat bogus -- you can really make any frame as stiff as you'd like -- it just might ride like a brick, or be heavy of whatever.
I also think there's an element where compact frames are easier to fit to a wider range of sizes -- like the way Giant only makes S,M,L OCR frames, instead of every size 48-62, every centimeter or whatever a 'classic' frame comes in.
If you don't like the look, then don't buy one. Fashions will change and we'll all be riding frames without seattubes or something in a couple years. Or maybe step-through frames or something.
I think they look kinda silly myself.
I also think there's an element where compact frames are easier to fit to a wider range of sizes -- like the way Giant only makes S,M,L OCR frames, instead of every size 48-62, every centimeter or whatever a 'classic' frame comes in.
If you don't like the look, then don't buy one. Fashions will change and we'll all be riding frames without seattubes or something in a couple years. Or maybe step-through frames or something.
I think they look kinda silly myself.
Compact geometry on a roadie just means that the manufacturer only has to make smalls, mediums, larges, and extra larges (rather than measuring things in centimeters) because standover becomes less of an issue. Then the seller has screw around with stem length and crap like that to fit the in between sizes. That seems like a huge compromise to me unless one of those generic sizes fits with minimal tweaking.
That said, buy the bike that fits the best.
That said, buy the bike that fits the best.
I've got a Giant compact bike. I haven't ridden a traditional sized frame though, so I don't have anything to compare it to. Eventually, I hope to move up to a traditional frame that's more of a spot-on fit. For how much I paid for it, the OCR3 is a damn good bike.
But yea, go with the bike that fits.
But yea, go with the bike that fits.
I've owned a small Giant TCR and now on a 50cm Trek frame, I'm actually prfering the traditional frame now, not to mention I can actually use 2 water bottles now, the small giant had place for 2 cages, but didn't work in practice.
but really just a matter of preference, jut make sure you don't hvae more than 20cm seat post extension or a stem longer than 120mm, cos then it will just look dorky.
but really just a matter of preference, jut make sure you don't hvae more than 20cm seat post extension or a stem longer than 120mm, cos then it will just look dorky.
I'm looking at 3 diffrent frames right now and one of them is a compact frame. What sux is its the nicest one and probly the cheepest. So I haven't made up my mind totaly yeat. I'm basicly looking at a Jamis comet, salsa, and Fuji perfeshinal. The comet is the compact frame bit comes with carbin seat stays and fork and steartube.
I think compact frames are great for us short folks. You get the standover with a taller headtube. Short headtubes are problematic in that headsets take a beating. You have to remember too that small folks do not usually have any drop between handlebar and saddle. I used to ride a 49cm traditional bike which results in a low front end. Too low for my body.
A lot of compact frames come in more than 3 sizes too. Devinci makes xs,s,m.l. and xl. The xs has I think a 52 top tube. I rode the small size with a 80mm stem.
I know one especially tall fellow who had a large traditional steel Guerciotti. I think he was around 6'6" or 7". He was making frames at Rocky Mountain at the time and after getting too much high speed shimmy built himself a compact road frame. This was back around 1985 I think. He claimed the compact geometry made for a stiffer frame which did not shimmy. I'm no engineer or bike designer but this guy went on to design bikes for Specialized.
A lot of compact frames come in more than 3 sizes too. Devinci makes xs,s,m.l. and xl. The xs has I think a 52 top tube. I rode the small size with a 80mm stem.
I know one especially tall fellow who had a large traditional steel Guerciotti. I think he was around 6'6" or 7". He was making frames at Rocky Mountain at the time and after getting too much high speed shimmy built himself a compact road frame. This was back around 1985 I think. He claimed the compact geometry made for a stiffer frame which did not shimmy. I'm no engineer or bike designer but this guy went on to design bikes for Specialized.
I prefer traditional geometry - I ride 53cm that falls between a small and medium.
Not all compact bikes are s,m,l,xl. I just ordered a Look KX lite and it comes in cm.
My opinion is less material to make the same stiffness. Lighter weight. Not to say that you can't build a light traditional frame.. Don't get me wrong.
What price range are you looking at and what fitting have you done to see how these bikes will work for you?
My opinion is less material to make the same stiffness. Lighter weight. Not to say that you can't build a light traditional frame.. Don't get me wrong.
What price range are you looking at and what fitting have you done to see how these bikes will work for you?
Well I'm looking at spending about $400 for a frame. Keep in mind I work for a shop. I have bin going over this with my opps maniger who is an eniginear and I have a lot of experince fitting pepple to bikes and so does he. And acording to jamis I am on the small end (at 5/8) of fiting the M comet frame. Its allso not that far off of a 54cm frame.
yeah, I've got a bunch of spacers on my 50cm frame (tiny headtube), looks a little beginner like, but thats the way its comfortable and its also similar to my mtb which is great, my small TCR had like only one spacer becuase of the taller headtube.
I fit bikes for a living, and I hate compact frames. Its the whole one size fits all concept. Jack the seat lengthen the stem and there you go a 6ft tall guy can ride a 50cm frame. The one thing that is key to road riding is fit. You can't get that perfect fit from a compact bike. Yeah people say they are light, but cannondale has a stock 15 pound bike, there is no point to getting lighter than that.
edumacate me... it seems the two primary reasons for the existence of compact frames are:
1. It's cheaper for the manufacturer and bike shops for production and storage of a more compact (haha) inventory.
2. Compact bikes are lighter?
Are there other reasons?
1. It's cheaper for the manufacturer and bike shops for production and storage of a more compact (haha) inventory.
2. Compact bikes are lighter?
Are there other reasons?
The manufactures are just cutting corners. They only have to make 3 sizes, and they are done. To give you an example, trek has to have a mold for each size of each carbon bike they make. One mold costs 1million dollars. They make 7 sizes of each model.
So if they went compact, they would save 4 million dollars instantly. As far as being lighter, I haven't seen it yet.
So if they went compact, they would save 4 million dollars instantly. As far as being lighter, I haven't seen it yet.
I actually completly disagree. Not every bike is for every person and if the person chooses a bike that doesn't fit them then it is their fault or the fault of the salesperson that talked them into a bad fitting bike.
Compact geometry does not mean that one should choose the closest size and make it work. It means, if this doesn't work...too bad.
There are compact bikes out there that are available in a large variety of sizes, I can think of my bike to start, the Look KX Lite. There are others available out there too. Tsunami makes some nice ones, Macalu, Merlin, Litespeed, Seven...there are plenty more.
Just because a bike is available in limited sizes it doesn't mean that you should compromise.
I agree with a lot of this. I think the actual frame of a compact would be marginaly lighter than a matching trditional frame, but the longer seatpost needed might be that much heavier. For me though, I use a standard length post in a compact frame.
Its also true that some manufacturers use compact geometry to get away from having to build a bunch of sizes. I do think that is dumb. If you need a 400 mm post and 140mm stem on 4 cm of spacers, well that just don't fit. I think that was Giant's intent with their compacts.
However, just because a frame is compact does not mean one will compromise handling (via a too long or short stem). Nor will a traditional frame guarantee a good fit. Traditional frames do not fit me. My wife's Trek 5200 for example is the right length for me but I would need a pretty big 3 or 4 cm stack under the stem to make it fit. I don't know if there is anything wrong with that, but it might get a bit flexy. As it is I have a Santa Cruz roadster in small. 100mm stem and 2cm of spacers. I use a standard Thomson post, a 350 I believe but I could easily cut off 15 or more cm's. as I run about 15 cm's showing.
The actual sales pitch used by the company reps, is:
A) the shop doesn't have to stock as many bikes
B) the bikes fit a diversity of people
c) the manufacturer saves money, and the savings trickles down into higher margins.
In disagreeing with me, you agreed with me. Fit is important, a lemond, might not fit where a trek would. Compact frames would deffinately make my life easier. I could use the one bike one fit approach. I prefer to help each customer choose a bike based on the fit of each bicycle versus the others, so that we can find the model that fits them best. (sometimes a compact is the best fit, usually on very short riders)
A) the shop doesn't have to stock as many bikes
B) the bikes fit a diversity of people
c) the manufacturer saves money, and the savings trickles down into higher margins.
In disagreeing with me, you agreed with me. Fit is important, a lemond, might not fit where a trek would. Compact frames would deffinately make my life easier. I could use the one bike one fit approach. I prefer to help each customer choose a bike based on the fit of each bicycle versus the others, so that we can find the model that fits them best. (sometimes a compact is the best fit, usually on very short riders)
Just to say it again, sometimes the compact frame is the best fit. I like to have a full diversity in my shop, so we have the option. I just disagree with the companies that only do compact, or only do high end bikes in compact. Each individual has certain needs, make sure you meet yours.
Well I guess you are correct, the part that I do agree with is that the key to road biking is fit. I work as a sales guy for a very high end road bike company. My primary job is to make sure that the bike that a person is buying is going to fit them properly and make sure they understand how a bike is supposed to fit, and to listen to them to make sure I know what makes them comfortable for their type of riding.
To say that Compact frames are bad because they limit the number of riders they fit is like saying that the Merlin Extralite is bad because it has a longer top tube. Some bikes fit a rider, some do not. One rider may find that one brand of compact bike will fit where another one will not. Every company has different geometries. Most companies have different models that fit differently as well.
This is a good topic! Thanks!
The biggest problem I have, is all the people I run into that are poorly fit. Most of this is cause the person selling the bike didn't know what they where doing, or had to move somthing. Unfortuneatley, compacts make that a very common occurence. Kinda like shops that use only standover to fit the customer. I agree in that this is a great debate.
Now I agree with you totally! When I stop into a "normal" bike shop and see the "salesperson" "Fitting" a bike it is a painfull experience. It is amazing that they don't even think of stem length as an issue or think to at least set the saddle height before the customer leaves the shop!
I agree compact frames to make it tuffer to fit some one it limets your choice of bikes. I work for a performance so we don't have a fit kit or any of the computer programes to fit pepple. Its a little harder some times because you have to try things out. My biggest problem for me right now is we don't have any of te bikes is stock that I'm looking at so I have to make a fue geueses as to what's going to fit best.
Ahhhh, its nice when we all get a long (neck). Well at least they get people riding, and when someone brings an ill fit bike to me, and I get them right, it usually means a customer for life. I can't complain about that. But cheers to you for treating riders right.
pulser, take a bike that you stock. Figure out by measuring it what needs to be different, or whats right. Bust out the catalogs, and compare your numbers to whats available to you. Lots of the brands don't change their geometry between, low end, and high end bikes. So its possible that the 400 dollar bike, adn the 4000 dollar bike might have the same geometry. Don't forget that you'll probably have to change the stem, cause nobody ever fits the one that comes with the bike.
These days event the computers and books can be wrong. Nothing beats siting on the bike in a trainer, or taking it for a ride. Road fit takes time, put the effort into it and get it right.
These days event the computers and books can be wrong. Nothing beats siting on the bike in a trainer, or taking it for a ride. Road fit takes time, put the effort into it and get it right.
We try hard to do right by our coustmers. Not being in the normal bike shop envirenment can make it a lot harder but thare are ways around that too. My big fear right now is not getting the right frame. I'm riding a 56 and I should be on a 53 or a 54. I got it 5 years ago befor I knew any thing about bikes. What's giving me the biggest headake is top tupe lanth. I have to put a fue hours in the shop tonight so I'm going to take a meshermint from my seat post to my bars and see how mutch longer it is from the top tubes on the bikes I'm looking at. I need to get an idea of how long a stem I'm going to have.
Honestly I am not crazy about Fit kits or I should say fit bikes. They are good for some applications, but the majority of customers that I deal with that have had a fit kit done are just confused. They come in and they KNOW they need such and such a top tube and such and such a seat tube. If you try to deviate from that then you are wrong.
The thing is that they don't always understand the the "ideal" bike according to the computer program doesn't exist, and if it did, it may not be a very good riding bike. A lot of the time, they don't understand that there is a difference between C-C measurements and C-T measurements, so a 54 isn't always a 54.
You can accomplish a lot with a tape measure and a fit stick and some basic math. The more you work with someone that really knows how to fit a bike, the more you will understand the mechanics behind it. Read a bit. There are some articles out there that will help you out. If you KNOW how to fit a bike and you work at a performance you will be one of their most valuable employees...well if your performance is anything like the one here!
Keep up the research and keep asking questions. You will figure it out soon enough.
Start fresh with some Body measurements. Then compair the outcome of that to your current set up. Take a look at www.wrenchscience.com. I haven't played with it in a while but they used to have a very good fit calculator. Just make sure the measurements you take are accurete and have a friend take them so you don't have to fumble with the tape measure.
When you compare the two (your measurements compared to your current fit) make a balance between the 2 to start out with your new bike.
The hardest bike to fit is your own.
I'll fit ya for freeOriginally posted by LordOpie
hey Josh, buddy, pal... are ya allowed to hook a local monkey up with a special deal?
I know what you mean. I use to work for a pro shop that handeld tryathilets and searios road racers. I allwas used the computer to get me close to the right fit. Its easy to pull a bike off the rack and start trying things and making simple changes. My problem has allwas bin figuring at all out when its all on paper.Originally posted by Motionboy2
Honestly I am not crazy about Fit kits or I should say fit bikes. They are good for some applications, but the majority of customers that I deal with that have had a fit kit done are just confused. They come in and they KNOW they need such and such a top tube and such and such a seat tube. If you try to deviate from that then you are wrong.
The thing is that they don't always understand the the "ideal" bike according to the computer program doesn't exist, and if it did, it may not be a very good riding bike. A lot of the time, they don't understand that there is a difference between C-C measurements and C-T measurements, so a 54 isn't always a 54.
You can accomplish a lot with a tape measure and a fit stick and some basic math. The more you work with someone that really knows how to fit a bike, the more you will understand the mechanics behind it. Read a bit. There are some articles out there that will help you out. If you KNOW how to fit a bike and you work at a performance you will be one of their most valuable employees...well if your performance is anything like the one here!
Keep up the research and keep asking questions. You will figure it out soon enough.
There is actually a course for the "fit kit", and a whole kit of things for ideal fit. I spent weeks on the course, step by step, learning everything. In the last session, it says take what you just learned, and the #'s you just got, and this RANGE of sizes will fit that customer. What a crock of sh#t that was. I can eyeball someone onto what range might fit. Its true though, your bike will be the hardest to fit. Use it as a learning experience, and listen to yourself. How do you want to ride, what position is most comfortable. Most programs I look at suggest postions for aero dynamics, got get stuck with that. 95% of my customers would rather be comfortable, than 1/2 second faster.
I'm looking for somthing imbetween the 2. I still want a comfortable ride but I want to be some what aro too. But yes your right you are allwas the hardest fit. Since I broke my back in augest my top tube has become too long and the bars too low. I just have to figure out ware thay need to be. I allready have a vary short and rather high quill stem on the bike now. I'm figuring if I can take 2 in out of the top tube and get the bars just a little higher and wider it would be alit better.
Just think about when a bike fits a rider properly, how much seatpost is exposed? Also you know what range of stem lengths would make a bike ride well, so think about that also when you are looking at the numbers on paper.
Seat angles and head angles can complicate things but you will figure that out as well.
What performance do you work at "outside of Philly"?
That hellps thanks. Its in montgomery vill store #22
Hmm, I am not sure where that one is. I used to live in Downingtown, West Chester, East stroudsburg. I thought maybe I would know of which one you work at.
You were south of ware I am. The only 2 stores in this state are mine and Paoli on Rt 30.
Ahh yes I know the Paoli store
Pulser, consider steel. The road vibration obsorbtion, will really help out if you've had back problems. The other thing I've found personally is that a steel bike rides so much smoother, that I can stand being in a much more aggresive ride position for a lot longer. I ride a Basso gap, and I love it. My bike weighs about 1/2 pound more than an equally equiped cannondale, but I don't race, I just love to ride, and steel is the best ride I have ever found.
your profile says your my age, and that you like trucks, and motorcycles. So we're the same age, I've got a ducati, and a jacked up wrangler that loves to dig. So maybe we'd like the same ride on a bike. JK
your profile says your my age, and that you like trucks, and motorcycles. So we're the same age, I've got a ducati, and a jacked up wrangler that loves to dig. So maybe we'd like the same ride on a bike. JK
Is this sizing conundrum still related to 'cross frames?
If so just walk away from the Giant cross bike.
Compact Geometry is 1000000000000% WRONG for cyclocross bikes. It can be great for roadbikes, but for cross you pretty much want the largest frame you can get, with the tallest headtube and most open front triangle possible. The primary function of all that is to (tah dah!) acheive an appropriate fit.
CX bike fit is similar to road fit in that you keep saddle height and setback essentially the same, but ideally the drops on the cross bike are about 1/2 way between the height of the hoods and the drops on your road bike. Reach is usually about 1-1.5 cm's shorter. To get an appropriate cross fit on the Giant it is necessary to run a positive rise stem, and bunches of spacers, the head tube area is very cramped, so the bike is slow on and off the shoulder as well. Hssssssssssssss
Giant's sizing philosophy doesn't AT ALL adress the needs of the 'cross racer or rider. That bike is an abomination and was designed in freaking so-cal where they know absolutely nothing about 'cross.
Their road bikes however can be made to fit about 80% of the cycling public very well without doing un-sightly or stupid things. I sell the other 20% Treks.
If so just walk away from the Giant cross bike.
Compact Geometry is 1000000000000% WRONG for cyclocross bikes. It can be great for roadbikes, but for cross you pretty much want the largest frame you can get, with the tallest headtube and most open front triangle possible. The primary function of all that is to (tah dah!) acheive an appropriate fit.
CX bike fit is similar to road fit in that you keep saddle height and setback essentially the same, but ideally the drops on the cross bike are about 1/2 way between the height of the hoods and the drops on your road bike. Reach is usually about 1-1.5 cm's shorter. To get an appropriate cross fit on the Giant it is necessary to run a positive rise stem, and bunches of spacers, the head tube area is very cramped, so the bike is slow on and off the shoulder as well. Hssssssssssssss
Giant's sizing philosophy doesn't AT ALL adress the needs of the 'cross racer or rider. That bike is an abomination and was designed in freaking so-cal where they know absolutely nothing about 'cross.
Their road bikes however can be made to fit about 80% of the cycling public very well without doing un-sightly or stupid things. I sell the other 20% Treks.
Im not a big fan of steel frames at all. I just dont like how they ride. I have a triumph Daytona and a lifted Tacoma.