[Electric_City]

So we should not have a discussion or is this another answer of "I'm to cool to talk about technicalities" ?

I'm curious since bikes with a high rearward component in susp are hard to balance geometry wise and most companies fail when they try to do it.

Feel free to have these discussions. That's what a forum is for. I'm just saying that not every bike is perfect for you, or perfect for me. But this bike might be perfect for Tom, Dick and Harry. Imagine every bike out there having the shortest stays imaginable, that 64.31* hta 6" of travel and the same reach. What would make that bike different/stand out that would send you running to the shop to buy it?

Like I said, not every bike is perfect for everyone. My bike company that I can't measure the amount of hate I have for, is Giant. Oil and water. But others SWEAR they're the best bikes in the world.

To each their own.

 

[norbar]

norbar, my guess is that due to physical limitations, chainstays couldn't be much shorter. 419mm at top out is really incredibly short, I would even argue too short for good stability at speed, especially the speed these goons are getting up to on the enderpo circuit.

Hugh's own suspension concept doesn't really correlate to short chainstays at sag because of his theories with axle path. Personally, I don't think 445mm is that bad at sag, and in fact I'd wager any bike with high anti-squat is going to sit around that area at sag. For local trails and lower speeds, then yeah, I'd rather have shorter stays but I'd also probably rather go with a much simpler suspension system. This looks to me like it would work wonderfully on a purpose built bike for enduro or DH racing, but for XCing? maybe not.

I understand the limitations. I'm simply curious since finding a good balance between too short as you claim and too long is a big problem with rearward bikes. it's an even bigger problem when you increase the wheel size.

I agree the bike seems like it's more suited towards full blown enduro racing vs having fun on less agressive trails where a bike that gives you a bigger sense of speed and is more agile could be more fun. I simply see Enduro as a really broad cathegory while in reality we have 2 types of customers and bikes here. People who want to feel fast but don't ride super fast tracks, and enduro racers that basically want a pedallable downhill bike (or a freeride bike like we called them in 2001 when everone rode Mongoose NX series bikes)

 

[StiHacka]

I only buy bikes that look good on the roof of my car.

 

[hmcleay]

OK people.
The Craftworks ENR is now available!
Visit www.craftworkscycles.com to check out the web store.

Don't forget, we have 10% GST in Australia, which is included in the advertised price.
So if you're buying from outside of Australia, you can knock 9.0909% off the price!! (but don't forget you may have to pay duties/taxes when importing into your country).

Free shipping within Australia. Hit me up for shipping prices to overseas.

Cheers,
Hugh.

 

[Sandwich]

congrats on the launch!

 

[Sandwich]

What's shipping to the us? Frame only should save customs cost and that's only 1700usd! Pretty good deal

 

[Flo33]

OK people.
The Craftworks ENR is now available!
Visit www.craftworkscycles.com to check out the web store.

Don't forget, we have 10% GST in Australia, which is included in the advertised price.
So if you're buying from outside of Australia, you can knock 9.0909% off the price!! (but don't forget you may have to pay duties/taxes when importing into your country).

Free shipping within Australia. Hit me up for shipping prices to overseas.

Cheers,
Hugh.

Good numbers and fair play on the price tag! Me like a lot. Any plans on a European distro?

 

[hmcleay]

Good numbers and fair play on the price tag! Me like a lot. Any plans on a European distro?

No European distribution at the moment; we'll look into it if we get a significant number of sales there.
Shipment of a frame to Europe would be around 200 Euros, so taking that into account, I think it should still be competitive with other options.

 

[slimshady]

So @Vrock has posted his analisis of @hmcleay 's excellent creation. He seems pretty impressed with it, even when using a non-trustable, error-prone piece of software to base his conclusions on .

Now seriously: Holy rearward axle path & AS numbers Batman! If I wasn't a third-world slave, I'd be totally considering buying one. Kudos Hugh!

 

[Vrock]

Hugh helped to develop the Software and he also send the me the Blueprints, so he's problably OK with the results XD. And I want to add that the P3 prototype got the best results in the WM Climb Benchmark, the Best of 23 models with a good lead from the second...

 

[4130biker]

What is the WM climb benchmark?

 

[Vrock]

I test a bunch of models with the Working Model Program, using the same conditions and the same terrain and measure who climbs faster...

 

[Sandwich]

I dig the results.

Can anyone help me understand the gradient curve charts a little better? I'm good with anti squat and I believe the force charts as well, but the gradient part confuses me.

Also, what effect will negative pedal kickback have on the bike? Will it just go into the freewheel?

 

[Vrock]

Negative PK on the long gears means there is a bit more of chain slap on the DH, but other than that the bike is going to work fine. Gradient curves depends a lot on how you model the air shock, so you have to take them with a grain of salt. The first part is always a "cliff", but the important part is the middle and the last part of the travel. Assuming that my model is correct, you can see that the gradient is almost constant, that means the bike feels like it has a coil shock instead of a air one...

 

[toodles]

So @Vrock has posted his analisis of @hmcleay 's excellent creation. He seems pretty impressed with it, even when using a non-trustable, error-prone piece of software to base his conclusions on .

Now anyone can just go and make and sell their own though.

 

[StiHacka]

The only bummer of the bike is its limited compatibility with droppers. I can't go back to a 380mm Reverb which seems to be my only option for my short crooked legs.

 

[hmcleay]

I dig the results.

Can anyone help me understand the gradient curve charts a little better? I'm good with anti squat and I believe the force charts as well, but the gradient part confuses me.

The Gradient curve tells us how the Wheel Force is changing at any instant, it's also referred to as 'Wheel Rate'.
Mathematically, it's the 'first derivative' of the Wheel Force curve.
Visually, it's the steepness of the slope of the Wheel Force curve.

Humans are very sensitive to the way a force changes, much more than the actual value of the force itself. So the Gradient curve gives a clearer indication of what you might feel. This info is still visible on the force curve (by looking at its slope), but visually less obvious.


You might have noticed that the ENR has a higher initial LR than the other bikes on that graph (which should yield a lower initial Wheel Rate), yet the Gradient curve starts with a higher value.
I believe @Vrock uses dimensions from Fox shocks to model the spring curves. So the difference in the initial value of the Gradient curve would be because the other bikes in this comparison probably use a longer 215x63 shock (vs the ENR's 200x57) which supposedly has a larger -ve chamber volume than a 200x57 shock. This affects the value of the initial Wheel Rate.
Unfortunately, shock manufacturer's aren't forthcoming with providing actual spring curves, and I don't have a dyno (or other spring force testing rig - yet), so I'm unable to comment on how the Cane Creek DB Inline spring curve compares with Vrock's model.

Also, the regressive nature of the LR curve after 100mm travel is a bit more pronounced than I wanted, but it's not easy to optimise everything together. I figured that this portion of the Force curve can be altered quite easily using volume reducers in the shock.
I'm not running any volume reducers at the moment, and am not bottoming out very often, but that's predominantly a reflection of my speed/strength (or lack thereof).
Faster/stronger riders can install more reducers for more support.

Cheers,
Hugh.

 

[hmcleay]

The only bummer of the bike is its limited compatibility with droppers.

Sorry to hear that the seat post insertion doesn't suit your needs.
I assume you've found the Reverb compatibility chart on the Craftworks website? (it's down below the FAQs).

I can't go back to a 380mm Reverb which seems to be my only option for my short crooked legs.

Does this mean you using a 420mm long post with 150mm drop at the moment?

 

[wiscodh]

Graphic design contest in the works?

 

[Sandwich]

Ok, so is the red line in this chart indicative of the spring curve of the air shock for each frame? And then the blue curve is the resultant force curve for the combination? This is my confusion.

 

[StiHacka]

Ok, so is the red line in this chart indicative of the spring curve of the air shock for each frame? And then the blue curve is the resultant force curve for the combination? This is my confusion.

The red curve is the 1st derivation of the blue curve, no?

 

[kidwoo]

First y axis is just straight F/x. And yes, the gradient dF/dx

It's just the change in slope.

And going by the looks of those curves, yes, those are all air shocks.

 

[jonKranked]

calculus? on RM? da fuq?

 

[StiHacka]

Does this mean you using a 420mm long post with 150mm drop at the moment?

I have a fox transfer that is like 150/470mm tall. But that is a detail, I have to confess I am strangely attracted to the bike. How does it ride in tight uber-technical old school chunk and roots trails, both up and down?

 

[hmcleay]

How does it ride in tight uber-technical old school chunk and roots trails, both up and down?

My view on this is biased, but of course it LOVES smashing through the rough stuff!
When I started thinking about designing bikes with rearward axle paths, it was with the downhill performance in mind. So it quite a nice surprise to find that there was also a significant improvement when climbing up rough rocky surfaces.
The only time things get a little bit awkward is when trying to come to a complete stop (or go very slowly - e.g. walking pace) down steep 'steppy' terrain. The rearward axle path can mean that the rear wheel locks up on a step, and the bike and rider keep going for a bit before they also stop. Bottom line: It's not a great trials bike, but it's pretty good at everything else!

Hopefully there'll be some ride reviews surfacing in the near future.

 

[Jm_]

Seems very similar to the DW AS curve, except about 30-40% higher (than ~100%).

How does this affect bump absorption? What's the benefit of around 140% AS throughout most of the travel?

 

[hmcleay]

Seems very similar to the DW AS curve, except about 30-40% higher (than ~100%).

How does this affect bump absorption? What's the benefit of around 140% AS throughout most of the travel?

Looks like there's a separate thread to handle these sorts of questions.

 

[hmcleay]

If you can get hold of it, grab a copy of the latest Mountain Biking Australia magazine, on shelves now.
It's got a review of the Craftworks ENR; here's a snippet:

"The ENR builds and maintains downhill speed like no other bike I've ever ridden. In fact I don't think you can appreciate just how much your current bike is making you work for speed until you've ridden the ENR"

 

[Sandwich]

Don't have access to that mag over here, but I'd love to read the review. And own the bike.

 

[norbar]

I would really like to read it. Too bad I crashed my ipad since they seem to be available in the apple store.

Hugh - any chance Craftworks will have some Euro presence?

 

[jonKranked]

I would really like to read it. Too bad I crashed my ipad since they seem to be available in the apple store.

Hugh - any chance Craftworks will have some Euro presence?

kraftwerk is european

 

[slimshady]

kraftwerk is european

 

[norbar]

kraftwerk is european

You don't have to tell me. My mother married a guy called Wolfgang 10 years ago. He is a german and he obviously loves kraftwerk.

 

[jonKranked]

You don't have to tell me. My mother married a guy called Wolfgang 10 years ago. He is a german and he obviously loves kraftwerk.

i named one of my new cats wolfgang.

i wasn't allowed to name my son wolfgang

 

[norbar]

i named one of my new cats wolfgang.

i wasn't allowed to name my son wolfgang

I really wanted them to name my little half sister Frauke but they said no

 

[jstuhlman]

one day i will have a dog named thor...thor, dog of thunder

 

[hmcleay]

Hugh - any chance Craftworks will have some Euro presence?

All the ENRs from the first run are in Australia now, so it's a bit difficult/expensive to set up distribution in EU. For the next production run, we'll most like set up some a distribution channel.
In the mean time, I'm happy to look at shipping costs for any EU customers (or anywhere in the world for that matter). Just shoot me a PM if interested.

Cheers,
Hugh.

 

[norbar]

All the ENRs from the first run are in Australia now, so it's a bit difficult/expensive to set up distribution in EU. For the next production run, we'll most like set up some a distribution channel.
In the mean time, I'm happy to look at shipping costs for any EU customers (or anywhere in the world for that matter). Just shoot me a PM if interested.

Cheers,
Hugh.

I'm still a year from buying a new bike after buying a flat (having a fiance is damn expensive) but it's good to know you ship worldwide if my financial situation changes faster than I anticipate.

btw. Any new models planned or are you waiting for the industry to decide which wheelsize makes sense?

 

[hmcleay]

Any Kiwis on here that have access to New Zealand MTBiker mag?

Here's what they thought of the Craftworks ENR after shredding 1800km in six months:
“…the best technical climber we’ve ridden”
“…the back end was extremely adept at plowing through the ugliest terrain”
“…straight up one of the best trail bikes we’ve ridden”

Check out the whopping six page review to read the rest!

 

[Kurt_80]

Any Kiwis on here that have access to New Zealand MTBiker mag?

Here's what they thought of the Craftworks ENR after shredding 1800km in six months:
“…the best technical climber we’ve ridden”
“…the back end was extremely adept at plowing through the ugliest terrain”
“…straight up one of the best trail bikes we’ve ridden”

Check out the whopping six page review to read the rest!

View attachment 124552

Congrats man, that is an excellent result!