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Cranks and BB

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Hi all i am new to this forum (veteran bikeforums member).

I am 220lbs doing aggro-xc and very light freeride on a specialized ht. I am considering changing cranks. My options are:

RF prodigy XC + FSA plat.pro bb.
RF prodigy DH + FSA
RF TurbineLP + FSA ISIS
RF TurbineLP + RF Squaretaper bb,
RF Deus XC + New RF Deus BB Special proprietary splined system for raceface.(will have to wait until march2004).


I am really looking forward for your suggestions. (I got a specialized strongarmII crank with a cheap sqt bb.).

Yannis
Greek rider in Britain.:monkey:
 

sub6

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
508
0
williamsburg, va
Out of what you suggested, I'd suggest the RF Prodigy DH and the FSA BB, given your weight and riding style.

Skip anything square taper, there's no point in sinking money into a TOTALLY out-moded technology.

I'd also skip anything with a proprietary spline. That way, if you find out that the cranks you have are garbage, you can just buy new ISIS arms from another manufacturer, and not have to buy a BB as well. Or vice-versa with the BB.

I've never heard of the Deus "proprietary spline", but wasn't RF one of the originators of the ISIS system?? That sounds odd that they'd go out and make their own proprietary spline. Unless it's just a Profile 48spline, which is pretty widespread. Just guessing......
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Thanks man for all the info.


By the way i was under the impression that Turbine cranks were as durable if not more than the prodigies. I also know that turbines have lifetime warranty instead of 1yr(prodigy). What do you reckon?


I got pics for the new Deus and Diablo RF cranks if you are interested.
 

sub6

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
508
0
williamsburg, va
Originally posted by math2014
Thanks man for all the info.


By the way i was under the impression that Turbine cranks were as durable if not more than the prodigies. I also know that turbines have lifetime warranty instead of 1yr(prodigy). What do you reckon?


I got pics for the new Deus and Diablo RF cranks if you are interested.

Well, the Turbines are XC cranks, and are a lot more expensive. At your weight, you'd do well to look at stronger stuff, 220 is considerably heavier than the average XC guy - I'm a bigger guy too and we put a lot more stress on parts than the average 150lb rider.

The Turbines would be my 2nd choice out of what you mentioned.

I definitely would not get the Prodigy XC or the sq.taper Turbines.

Yeah, post pics of the Deus stuff, I'd like to see it. Esp. what the spline pattern looks like, if you got 'em....
 

sub6

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
508
0
williamsburg, va
Originally posted by mrbigisbudgood
I would suggest, for $55, FSA V-Drive cranks + whatever BB y ou want to use.
I agree with that 100%, that's what I use on my DH bike (with a RF Signature DH BB) and they RULE. I can't believe something so strong is so cheap.

I considered suggesting them, but they weren't on the list so I opted not to.....
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Please do suggest anything you want. This forum is just so awesome.Technical responses to everything!!!! Just like my style based on my humble background on aerospace engineering.

Well RF says that Turbines are FR/XC designed and can well handle the stuff a ProdigyDH will handle.

Here are the pics for Deus.
 

mrbigisbudgood

Strangely intrigued by Echo
Oct 30, 2001
1,380
3
Charlotte, NC
Originally posted by math2014
Sorry this is the DEUS the previous pic was the diablo. New spline ala XTR. Release Feb2004 ( i am afraid of this new proprietary system though).

Deus
Those are frikkin bueatiful!!!!!!!!!
 

Headcrash

Chimp
Sep 20, 2002
13
0
Nelson, BC
OMG...I would be paranoid of riding one of those for fear of scratching it up :D

Originally posted by math2014
New spline ala XTR. Release Feb2004
Does this mean that they are compatible with the new XTR BBs?

-- headcrash
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
No they are not compatible with anything else at all, the Deus and Diablo cranks are proprietary to the respective BB. They arent even ISIS compatible. :(. I guess i ll be getting a Turbine ISIS crank after all, XC/FR so its gonna be ok for me, plus its non proprietary. I remember that i critisized shimano for the new XTR/XT/Saint proprietary stuff, now raceface introduces it as well so i am off to traditional ISIS, after all truvativ already produces bb ISIS with external bearings so i ll keep both the ISIS std and the new idea of external bearings.
 

sub6

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
508
0
williamsburg, va
I think what's beginning to happen, is that users AND designers are realizing that the ISIS standard was a little hasty. Those nice big fat spindles sure are stiff, but they leave NO room for bearings inside a Euro BB shell, so now nobody can make anything with bearings that actually hold up.

So now, we've got people coming out with sh*t like external bearings (Shimano, etc), oversize BB shells (FSA's new standard, forget what it's called, Mega-BB or something like that????) etc to try to solve the problem.

I can only hope those new bearing solutions will retain the ISIS spline at the ends so the old cranks will still fit. Judging by RF's new stuff though, I doubt it'll happen.....
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Its true that they are trying to have a longer bearing life. But i think that ISIS bb of today are far better than initial bb back in 2001. Also FSA platinum is a great improvement for bearing life. Also Truvativ gigapipe series has larger bearings put almost outside the bb shell. I dont like the idea of new splined system because it will soon mean that all ISIS cranks are garbage (no spares etc...) and plus i am on the lookout for an ISIS crank the turbine ...and i dont want to see myself with a crank without spares or bb to match with.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
I agree that it stinks that everyone's developing different standards and such, but I'm of the belief that cranks are fairly disposable items. So, maybe ISIS goes away and nobody makes cranks for it anymore. So what? How much did you spend on your crankset? If you spent a lot and bought a top-of-the-line set, and DON'T have money to replace them, well, you should consider what your priorities are - plenty of cheap, burly cranksets around. No need to buy a $250 set of crankarms. If you spent a lot and have lots of money, then buy a new set. If you bought cheap cranks, why are we having this discussion? Replace them!

I just hope they come up with a good, reliable standard with BIG bearings that will not disintegrate after some abuse. Whether they make ISIS once that standard exists, well, I don't really care.
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Originally posted by binary visions
I agree that it stinks that everyone's developing different standards and such, but I'm of the belief that cranks are fairly disposable items. So, maybe ISIS goes away and nobody makes cranks for it anymore. So what? How much did you spend on your crankset? If you spent a lot and bought a top-of-the-line set, and DON'T have money to replace them, well, you should consider what your priorities are - plenty of cheap, burly cranksets around. No need to buy a $250 set of crankarms. If you spent a lot and have lots of money, then buy a new set. If you bought cheap cranks, why are we having this discussion? Replace them!

I just hope they come up with a good, reliable standard with BIG bearings that will not disintegrate after some abuse. Whether they make ISIS once that standard exists, well, I don't really care.
Thats exactly my point. I dont have loads of money to replace high end parts every six months. I have a cheap square taper crankset now and i would like to get a high-end(ish) TurbineLP ISIS crank, it costs 300$ to do so and i wouldnt like to see my money go down the drain. The option to wait untill the new RF thing arives incorporates risk as well, since it may not be as good as it seems on paper, its not tested and more importantly the general public acceptance to this new standard is far from established and whether or not this will happen will be known a year or two after the introduction of this new std. So basically i am stuck between a rock and a hard place :D
 

sub6

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
508
0
williamsburg, va
Originally posted by binary visions
I agree that it stinks that everyone's developing different standards and such, but I'm of the belief that cranks are fairly disposable items. So, maybe ISIS goes away and nobody makes cranks for it anymore. So what? How much did you spend on your crankset? If you spent a lot and bought a top-of-the-line set, and DON'T have money to replace them, well, you should consider what your priorities are - plenty of cheap, burly cranksets around. No need to buy a $250 set of crankarms. If you spent a lot and have lots of money, then buy a new set. If you bought cheap cranks, why are we having this discussion? Replace them!

I just hope they come up with a good, reliable standard with BIG bearings that will not disintegrate after some abuse. Whether they make ISIS once that standard exists, well, I don't really care.
Good point. My ISIS cranks are $55 FSA V-drives which have served me reliably all season. I'd be pissed if I had to ditch a pair of Middleburn RS-7s or RF Northshores though. My point isn't so much that I wanna keep my crankarms but that all these standards are a pain, particularly for people who don't know a lot. How many spline standards are there? ISIS, Shimano Octalink, Shimano XTR, Shimano New-XTR, Profile 48spline, Azonic's proprietary spline (454s), and now two new splines from Race Face. Not to mention TWO square taper standards (Campy and everyone else).

UGH!!!!!! It's just a crankset for fuxsake!!! The term "standard" clearly has ZERO meaning in the bicycle world......
 

spincrazy

I love to climb
Jul 19, 2001
1,529
0
Brooklyn
Originally posted by sub6
Good point. My ISIS cranks are $55 FSA V-drives which have served me reliably all season. I'd be pissed if I had to ditch a pair of Middleburn RS-7s or RF Northshores though. My point isn't so much that I wanna keep my crankarms but that all these standards are a pain, particularly for people who don't know a lot. How many spline standards are there? ISIS, Shimano Octalink, Shimano XTR, Shimano New-XTR, Profile 48spline, Azonic's proprietary spline (454s), and now two new splines from Race Face. Not to mention TWO square taper standards (Campy and everyone else).

UGH!!!!!! It's just a crankset for fuxsake!!! The term "standard" clearly has ZERO meaning in the bicycle world......
Where can i get the V drives for $55? Can't find em that cheap.
 

sub6

Monkey
Oct 17, 2001
508
0
williamsburg, va
Originally posted by spincrazy
Where can i get the V drives for $55? Can't find em that cheap.
go-ride had 'em for that from about November thru March, which was when I bought mine. I dunno if they're still that price but it's worth checkin out....
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
Originally posted by math2014
Thats exactly my point. I dont have loads of money to replace high end parts every six months. I have a cheap square taper crankset now and i would like to get a high-end(ish) TurbineLP ISIS crank, it costs 300$ to do so and i wouldnt like to see my money go down the drain. The option to wait untill the new RF thing arives incorporates risk as well, since it may not be as good as it seems on paper, its not tested and more importantly the general public acceptance to this new standard is far from established and whether or not this will happen will be known a year or two after the introduction of this new std. So basically i am stuck between a rock and a hard place :D
Why are you deciding to fork over $300 for your cranks if you don't have a lot of money? A set of V-Drive arms costs $55 from go-ride.com. The Prodigy cranks are fine cranks, and you can get 'em for $145 including rings. XT cranks are light and strong, and cost less than $100.

I'm fine with spending a lot of money on parts, but to throw a lot of money into a disposable product like your cranks is, in my opinion, silly. Spend a lot of money on your frame, fork, hubs, brakes, and tires. The rest of the bike parts break.

Anyway, I guess that's not the point of the thread. But my point is that these developing standards are fine with me, and the fact that you have to buy a new BB or something, well, I don't care. It's not like you have to have a new frame to run them.
 

D_D

Monkey
Dec 16, 2001
392
0
UK
If isis is going to disapear it might be better to get square taper. Due to the numbers of bike with sqauare tapers the bbs will be cheap and will be around for a long time.

Isis bb bearings don't last long but thats not really a problem for me I will just use the bb until it stops turning. Thats not an option for a lot of people.

All this mess would be solved if they started to make isis spindles with big bearings for bmx size bottom brackets. Knowing the bike industry they will proberly introduce yet another standard that is 1mm smaller than the bmx bb for no reason.
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
So basically you think that the best idea is to get a pair of TurbineLP cranks in square taper format? I dont want to pay 300$ for an ISIS turbine and get stuck with them without bb after a year or two. I mean i dont want to b1tch around for money issues but if i get a turbine and pay 300$ and a year later someone decides to quit on ISIS i ll be pissed a lot. All in all i want to get turbines because of the lifetime warranty they have, sorry guys for the questions but i am between a rock and a hard place.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
Square taper is a bad structural design. I wouldn't get them if I were you.

ISIS isn't going anywhere anytime soon - don't be so worried about it. The companies still have warrenties to consider, even if they decide they don't want to manufacture ISIS for sale anymore.

If you're fixed on the Turbines, get a set with ISIS, and figure out what ISIS BB you like best. If it looks like the standard is in danger of disappearing, go buy 5 of the bottom brackets and live happily ever after.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
The Prodigys are plenty durable. Is it worth the extra cash? Well, that's just a question of how much cash you have to spend and where your priorities are. The Turbines are, no doubt, higher quality, and have the nice bling bling factor.

It sounds like you're on a tight budget. So, would you rather have some fine quality cranks and still have enough money to buy yourself some new tires and a few post-ride beers, or would you rather have that top of the line part and be broke?

For me, it's a no brainer. I'll go with the lower end cranks if money is tight - the new tires and some post ride beer do a lot to make that decision look smart! :thumb:

Don't think too hard on the warrenty. Trust me, if you break them 5 years from now, RaceFace is not going to send you a new pair free of charge. It's a warrenty from manufacturer's defects.
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Well if the turbines cost more because of the bling bling factor then i wont get them. I dont have issues with budget, but i wouldnt like to spend cash on something that its not worth the extra cash. Unless the warranty is real, unless the turbines are stronger than the prodigies i dont see any reason for someone buying them. Also RF says on their website that the turbines are for XC/FR use and at the same time on the warranty section they say that they cover only XC use....strange....anyway i do mostly trailriding... but still it confuses me. Anyhow apart from the bling bling factor, is their any other advantage of the turbines? I thought by the way that turbines are stronger than ProdigyDH and XC and that the only stronger than turbines RF cranks is the NS
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
Prodigy DH is stronger than the Turbines.

Turbines are stronger than the Prodigy XC.

They are higher quality cranks, crafted in Canada I believe, certainly with more care than the Prodigy series. They will be stronger than the Prodigy XC, and they're pretty light as well.

The Prodigy DH are rediculously heavy for trail riding. The Turbines would serve you very well if you're looking for something more abuse-worthy than XC cranks.
 

gk02

Chimp
Apr 24, 2002
9
0
as mentioned before i wouldnt expect to see the isis system disappearing anytime soon. I personally like it. I would rather replace a bb every year or six months and have the extra stiffness that it affords. I think you will pretty soon see isis bb's becoming more reliable. bottom brackets in my book are almost as disposable on a bike as chains. They just get beat on so hard. Crank arms on the other hand should last a little longer. I would just buy the isis stuff and then pick up another bb sometime in the future when you see one go on sale that you like. As far as a new standard i think the bigger bottom bracket shell that FSA introduced is the way to go. It makes more sense than hanging bearings outside of the frame. In every way it is better, allows you to build a stronger frame, stiffer bottom bracket, and bigger bearings. Plus they will be pressed in so a ruined frame due to bad threads wont be a problem either.
and one more thing, with the bigger bottom bracket shell they will still be using the isis splined system so you could move use the same cranks for a oversized bottom bracket shell or the standard.
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
By the way i contacted Raceface today here is the deal:

NorthShore and Turbine cranks are to be discontinued in a couple of months.
The replacement models are :

DeusXC: Lighter than turbines, for xc racing only
Athlus : Heavier than turbines lighter than NS :allmountain FR
Diabolus : Extreme DH/FR

All three cranks will come in ISIS or the new X-Type spline. Note that costs for Xtype bb are going to be significantly cheaper than the signature series bb. They are also going to be stronger and lighter. no bb body, just two shells covering the bearings and a biiiiig hollow axle to keep everything tight in place.
Finally ProdigyXC/DH will be replaced by EvolveXC/DH with a reduction of 30g for each model. 650g/850g respectively, available in ISIS or SquareTaper. That said its clear that raceface will still support isis but decided that a new lighter cheaper and more reliable bb system was needed , the X-Type.

Yannis.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
I'd personally just get a pair of deore XTs... lighter, more reliable, and cheaper than any of the above options. Stronger than all of them except the V-drives and prodigy DHs too.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
Originally posted by ohio
I'd personally just get a pair of deore XTs... lighter, more reliable, and cheaper than any of the above options. Stronger than all of them except the V-drives and prodigy DHs too.
You know, I always forget to recommend the XT's but I really like them. They're light, durable, and Shimano BB's are awesome.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
The XT cranks themselves are very durable, and Shimano is putting the same XTR bottom bracket on their Saint cranks so they have to have some faith in them. Personally I think the BB style is a good idea given the space they have to work with.

Shimano BB's have always been very strong, very durable, and very smooth.
 

oldfart

Turbo Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
1,206
24
North Van
Actually the real deal is the LX cranks. Exact same bb and crank as XT except for the finish. Steel chainring bolts v XT aluminum bolt steel nut. LX has different rings too with a steel small.

I might be missinformed but I believe all the Race Face prodigy line is Taiwan built. Cranks are made by the same folks who make truvativ. Nothing special
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
Originally posted by oldfart
Actually the real deal is the LX cranks. Exact same bb and crank as XT except for the finish. Steel chainring bolts v XT aluminum bolt steel nut. LX has different rings too with a steel small.

I might be missinformed but I believe all the Race Face prodigy line is Taiwan built. Cranks are made by the same folks who make truvativ. Nothing special
You're right on both counts. Actually, only the 44t ring is different on the XT cranks - XT sports the steel granny and the same middle ring. I got my XT cranks on sale for the same price as LX, though.

The Prodigy line is Taiwan built - indeed, nothing special, but MUCH cheaper!
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
Originally posted by oldfart
Actually the real deal is the LX cranks. Exact same bb and crank as XT except for the finish. Steel chainring bolts v XT aluminum bolt steel nut. LX has different rings too with a steel small.
True, but I said XT because the (bulged) '03s use different BBs, and I think it's worthwhile to get the XT BB.

If you can find the non-bulge arms though (LX or XT) those are some of the best cranks and deals going.

As for the '04 stuff.... no one really knows, but given their history of reliable cranks and BBs, I'd be willing to bet they're pretty good. But why wait and shell out for new and unproven stuff when the old stuff works great and is so cheap?
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Hmmm, so XT 2003 bulged is worse than the 2002 model with straight arms? Also do you reckon that its not worth fishing cash to 2004 RF or Shimano new splined systems? There is a high possibility of teething problems? To be honest outboard bearings may be bigger and may be longer lasting but they are more exposed to the elements since they sit outside the frame and we all know that whatever the sealing is....gunk always gets through eventually.
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Originally posted by binary visions
You're right on both counts. Actually, only the 44t ring is different on the XT cranks - XT sports the steel granny and the same middle ring. I got my XT cranks on sale for the same price as LX, though.

The Prodigy line is Taiwan built - indeed, nothing special, but MUCH cheaper!
As far as i can tell, taiwan builds have nothing bad in comparison with US or Canadian or euro builds. The guys there have far more experience in building stuff and all the university R&D goes into bikes , i know coz a good friend of mine is Taiwanese. Anyhow the made in Canada/US/UK/.... tag carries some bling bling factor, other than that....
 
Originally posted by ohio
True, but I said XT because the (bulged) '03s use different BBs, and I think it's worthwhile to get the XT BB.

If you can find the non-bulge arms though (LX or XT) those are some of the best cranks and deals going.

As for the '04 stuff.... no one really knows, but given their history of reliable cranks and BBs, I'd be willing to bet they're pretty good. But why wait and shell out for new and unproven stuff when the old stuff works great and is so cheap?
I vote for XT also.

What's the difference between the BBs for the two types of XT cranks?

J
 

oldfart

Turbo Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
1,206
24
North Van
As far as I know, there are only two bb's which fit the XT and LX octalink cranks of any year, the ES-70 and ES-71. They come in two lengths 113 and 118. I just put a neww ES-71 in the wifes bike to replace the worn ES-70. There was a difference visually but I think it was just the fixed cup being one with the bb casing??? Can't remember it was a month ago. I'll check the Shimano site.

OK the Shimano Europe site confirms it. ES-70 and 71 are the two bb's available for XT or LX cranks of any octalink splined vintage. XT has 3 aluminum rings and aluminum bolt steel nut chainring bolts. LX has steel chainring bolts and a steel granny. The chainrings are a bit different but the visual differences are pretty subtle. The price difference is less subtle.
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Well the bad news with XT 2003 and 2002 is that its discontinued and replaced by the 2004 XTR style cranks. I start to believe that these are somewhere between XTR and Saint in durability.