[SkaredShtles]

I'm glad that people choose to become educated and fix their *preventable* health problems.

But you know what - when it comes to some of the nasty $hit that's out there that will KILL YOU, I'll take my money to a doc. A real M.D. Preferably a specialist in his/her field.

I'm *not* going to pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster or go to some Witchdoctor in hopes of some chant healing me.

 

[DRB]

I'm glad that people choose to become educated and fix their *preventable* health problems.

But you know what - when it comes to some of the nasty $hit that's out there that will KILL YOU, I'll take my money to a doc. A real M.D. Preferably a specialist in his/her field.

I'm *not* going to pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster or go to some Witchdoctor in hopes of some chant healing me.

You are so uninformed. Get in tune with your body dumba$$ and all will be well.

 

[Knuckleslammer]

do you have the name of a good holistic auto healer? i think my cv joint's on the way out.

LOL

 

[Knuckleslammer]

Knowledge changes our perception, utilizing the faculty of a greater reality. The body is poorly trained, your mind trained you to be a body; learn to create as a mind rather than a body. Concept yourself as somebody else, the voices are not who you are, it's who you were.

 

[narlus]

Knowledge changes our perception, utilizing the faculty of a greater reality. The body is poorly trained, your mind trained you to be a body; learn to create as a mind rather than a body. Concept yourself as somebody else, the voices are not who you are, it's who you were.

that's really funny when you look at the Tom Cruise avatar and hear his voice saying that.

 

[DRB]

that's really funny when you look at the Tom Cruise avatar and hear his voice saying that.

So Knuck = Tom ?

If that's the case.

Knuck what's it like doing the nasty with katie holms?

 

[narlus]

So Knuck = Tom ?

If that's the case.

Knuck what's it like doing the nasty with katie holms?

do you think Tom's done the nasty w/ her? isn't he queerer than andy dick?

 

[SkaredShtles]

Knowledge changes our perception, utilizing the faculty of a greater reality. The body is poorly trained, your mind trained you to be a body; learn to create as a mind rather than a body. Concept yourself as somebody else, the voices are not who you are, it's who you were.

Let's get hypothetical. Let's say you get a UTI and your d**k starts to burn and itch to a degree that drives you crazy. Do you simply deny the infection? Do you just live with it until it goes away? Drink lots of cranberry juice? I'm seriously curious.........

 

[DRB]

do you think Tom's done the nasty w/ her? isn't he queerer than andy dick?

I'm waiting patiently for To, I mean Knuck, to tell us.

 

[bluebug32]

I know my last comment in this thread was anything but nice. And I'm about 2 seconds away from taking the ridemonkey sticker off my car window and saying the hell with this. I'm sick of coming here to unwind and, instead encounter useless arguments and cheap shots. Yes, I'm Rob's girlfriend, but I'll be the first to tell him when I think he's wrong or when I don't agree with what he's saying. I agree that doctors have their place and alternative medicine does too. They are both good for different things. And I don't believe that chiros. can save the world's problems. Every discipline has its limits.

There's a difference between insulting that discipline and throwing hurtful insults at the person behind it. We all have our chosen careers and interests that we're proud of and have put so much into. There's no need here, as friends, to verbally cut someone down. If that's what it comes down to, I'm out of here-- and I know I won't be the only one.

 

[narlus]

hey bluebug32, i noticed you removed yr sig file. is this situation much different?

if rob got all worked up about "witch doctor", well, not much i can do about it; i'm sorry if he's thin-skinned. he chose words like "idiot" and "ass" and "fvck" in retort, and got increasingly high blood pressure as the thread grew.

note to rob - it's probably best to stay out of the PD forum.

 

[Toshi]

There's a difference between insulting that discipline and throwing hurtful insults at the person behind it. We all have our chosen careers and interests that we're proud of and have put so much into. There's no need here, as friends, to verbally cut someone down. If that's what it comes down to, I'm out of here-- and I know I won't be the only one.

sweet jeebus, what do you want the collective group of hecklers to do? say "oh, everything works equally well, and i have unconditional respect for anyone who waves their hands and truly sincerely believes they're helping someone"? good intentions only go so far, especially when actually messing with important systems (as opposed to homeopathy, which is basically placebo-via-water-tablet as far as i can tell).

when there's scientific evidence, from both non-u.s. and u.s. journals alike, that a particular therapy is not beneficial, whether that is Vioxx or chiropractic neck manipulation, i will bash it. simple as that. and if someone is so firmly entrenched in the Cult of Vioxx or Intelligent Design or Jim Jones ("but the koolaid tastes so good!") or Chiropractic that they cannot see that they're on shaky factual ground it's not my job to pussyfoot* around the issues at hand.

* note to mods: pussyfoot is a real word http://www.answers.com/pussyfoot&r=67 . also note that my cult analogy does not apply to Apple and iPods, thank you.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I know my last comment in this thread was anything but nice. And I'm about 2 seconds away from taking the ridemonkey sticker off my car window and saying the hell with this. <snip>
If that's what it comes down to, I'm out of here-- and I know I won't be the only one.

It's actually really easy to ignore a thread..............

 

[robdamanii]

sweet jeebus, what do you want the collective group of hecklers to do? say "oh, everything works equally well, and i have unconditional respect for anyone who waves their hands and truly sincerely believes they're helping someone"? good intentions only go so far, especially when actually messing with important systems (as opposed to homeopathy, which is basically placebo-via-water-tablet as far as i can tell).

when there's scientific evidence, from both non-u.s. and u.s. journals alike, that a particular therapy is not beneficial, whether that is Vioxx or chiropractic neck manipulation, i will bash it. simple as that. and if someone is so firmly entrenched in the Cult of Vioxx or Intelligent Design or Jim Jones ("but the koolaid tastes so good!") or Chiropractic that they cannot see that they're on shaky factual ground it's not my job to pussyfoot* around the issues at hand.

* note to mods: pussyfoot is a real word http://www.answers.com/pussyfoot&r=67 . also note that my cult analogy does not apply to Apple and iPods, thank you.

Earth to Toshi:

Since WHEN is YOUR opinion the only one that's right? I don't care if people believe in revival tent healing. If it works, then it WORKS! You hate the chiropractic profession because a bunch of MDs have determined it's "pseudoscience". Yeah, you have a bunch of journals? How many are NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE AMA OR ALLOPATHIC MEDICINE IN SOME REGARD? NONE!

It has been this way since day one; there has been a chiasm between the two professions. The AMA HATED chiropractors and other alternative medicine because they believed they were the ONLY ones worthy of the title DR. They believed that allopathic medicine is the only way to "cure" something. BULL! By your logic, if holding a DOCTORATE in Chiropractic does not make you a doctor or give you the privelage of putting Dr. in front of your name, then a PhD confers no privelage either.

Your studies are allopathically biased. The chiropractic profession ITSELF has said there is no 100% proof positive that this will work every time. Yet there is documented evidence that manipulation of spinal joints confers relief of many symptoms while non-invasively allowing the body to put to use it's own recouperative abilities. If the profession is such a bunch of "quacks" and "witch doctors", then why are managed care plans and insurance companies reimbursing for chiropractic care? Why does medicare reimburse for chiropractic care? Why couldn't the almighty AMA prevent that with their lobbiests in Washington? Why are there integrated care facilities where an MD, DC, DO and acupuncturist all work in the same office? Maybe a few people are a little more open to other things than yourself. Maybe a few other people are secure enough to stand up and say "My way isn't the only way." Maybe, just maybe, those are the people who are smart enough to see that fighting against alternative therapies and care is a useless battle, and their resources are better spent treating their patients instead of crying that they're not getting the piece of the pie they think they deserve.

And speaking of a DO....are they a real doctor? They can prescribe drugs, but they perform manipulation as well. Does that make them a quack?

You want to talk something? Let's talk numbers.

Summary of Course Hours for Doctor of Chiropractic

* Anatomy 585 hours
* Biochemistry 75 hours
* Physiopathology 345 hours
* Microbiology and Public Health 120 hours
* Diagnosis 525 hours
* Diagnostic Imaging 270 hours
* Clinical Laboratory 75 hours
* Associated Studies 165 hours
* Chiropractic Philosophy 135 hours
* Chiropractic Technique 615 hours
* Ancillary Therapeutic Procedures 90 hours
* Clinical Practice Issues 75 hours
* Clinical Experience and Outpatient Services 1,320 hours
* Total Core hours 4,380 hours
* Elective Courses 225 hours

Total 4,620 hours

That's for my degree as a specialist in treating the neuromusculoskeletal system.

From this site:
http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section2/courses.cfm

After totaling up the hours (albeit, since they won't give me information on the last 3 years, I'm simply doubling the total of the first 3) I get this total:

5,564 total hours.

How is my knowledge of how the human body works any different from yours? Is it not true that both professions have the same goal in helping people to feel better? Or is a common goal not enough for you high and mighty MDs?

Bottom line; I don't care if you don't like what I do. Frankly, I think the philosophy of "people need treatment when they are diseased" is crap. I believe prevention is the most important of ALL care, be it nutritional, chiropractic, massage, etc etc. Your opinion about my profession is moot. You will NOT change my direction in life, NOR my beliefs in the profession I practice. Go on shoving pills down people and reading your AMA approved propaganda. You're no more right than I am, however you will never get me to QUIT defending the profession I have chosen and believe in.

 

[MtnBikerChk]

.... And I'm about 2 seconds away from taking the ridemonkey sticker off my car window and saying the hell with this.

If you do, you can return it to me because I'm sure that's where Stosh got it from and I'd hate to see it go to waste.

 

[Crazy Sweeper]

Back on topic:

My mom used to be a claims adjuster for Nationwide, and she was given a lap top with connectivity so she only had to go to work like twice a week when there were clients at the office.

Also, this week one of my coworkers is giving a video conference to teach one of the schools in our curriculum.

 

[splat]

Where's Splat when you need him? He'll tell you (all) about antibiotics....

Sorry I took so Long. But without anti-biotics eariler this summer I'd be dead !

I'm glad that people choose to become educated and fix their *preventable* health problems.

But you know what - when it comes to some of the nasty $hit that's out there that will KILL YOU, I'll take my money to a doc. A real M.D. Preferably a specialist in his/her field.

I guess a tick Bite is preventable , But Still....

and doing this for 3 weeks was so much fun

while I believe Chriros are good for some things , they are not the cure alls that some people believe they are.

 

[Crazy Sweeper]

back to the cold stuff again. Have you ever tried Cold-eze? Supposedly it's clinically proven to reduce the duration of the common cold.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

back to the cold stuff again. Have you ever tried Cold-eze? Supposedly it's clinically proven to reduce the duration of the common cold.

That's what I'm talkin 'bout. They'll take it only so far as it's profitable. I dunno, I just know they have the cure!

 

[Toshi]

Yeah, you have a bunch of journals? How many are NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE AMA OR ALLOPATHIC MEDICINE IN SOME REGARD? NONE!

uh, are you really questioning the whole journal system since the evidence shows the following?

a) chiropractic is no better (or worse) than exercise or PT for back pain, and
b) chiropractic neck manipulation carries with it a higher risk of injury to neck arteries (which is a Bad Thing, in case that's not clear)

cue creationist argument again, i think i've heard the same line from some of those poor irrational souls as well. oh yeah, and the AMA doesn't run the majority of journals. please choose a different, more logical object of your anti-authority rants next time.

BULL! By your logic, if holding a DOCTORATE in Chiropractic does not make you a doctor or give you the privelage of putting Dr. in front of your name, then a PhD confers no privelage either.

sure, if you have a doctorate of chiropractic or ancient greek literature or whatever you can call yourself "Dr. such and such". however, that's not the sense that you meant it, and not the sense in which it is typically interpreted. chiropractors and naturopaths are not equivalent to MDs. period.

Your studies are allopathically biased. The chiropractic profession ITSELF has said there is no 100% proof positive that this will work every time. Yet there is documented evidence that manipulation of spinal joints confers relief of many symptoms while non-invasively allowing the body to put to use it's own recouperative abilities.

please post reference to these studies from peer-reviewed journals. thx

If the profession is such a bunch of "quacks" and "witch doctors", then why are managed care plans and insurance companies reimbursing for chiropractic care? Why does medicare reimburse for chiropractic care? Why couldn't the almighty AMA prevent that with their lobbiests in Washington? Why are there integrated care facilities where an MD, DC, DO and acupuncturist all work in the same office?

what in the world does the payment allowance of insurance companies and office layouts, of all things, have to do with the validity of the treatment in question?

Maybe a few people are a little more open to other things than yourself. Maybe a few other people are secure enough to stand up and say "My way isn't the only way." Maybe, just maybe, those are the people who are smart enough to see that fighting against alternative therapies and care is a useless battle, and their resources are better spent treating their patients instead of crying that they're not getting the piece of the pie they think they deserve.

did you miss the post i made above where i stated that in allopathic med school we're being inundated with complementary and alternative medicine education? who do you think did those retrospective studies on the efficacy of chiropractic? yes, people who indeed are "smart enough to see that fighting against alternative therapies and care is a useless battle".

And speaking of a DO....are they a real doctor? They can prescribe drugs, but they perform manipulation as well. Does that make them a quack?

yes, DOs are "real doctors". they go through the same residencies as MDs, etc.

You want to talk something? Let's talk numbers.

Summary of Course Hours for Doctor of Chiropractic

Total 4,620 hours

That's for my degree as a specialist in treating the neuromusculoskeletal system.

From this site:
http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section2/courses.cfm

After totaling up the hours (albeit, since they won't give me information on the last 3 years, I'm simply doubling the total of the first 3) I get this total:

5,564 total hours.

uh, you belie your ignorance right here: med school is FOUR years long, and residency lasts anywhere from 3 to 8 years depending on specialty. and residents are limited to "just" 88 hours a week, altho that limit is not obeyed in practice.

there's no way whatsoever you're going to win a pissing contest over course hours. allopathic training in the US is the most rigorous in the world, to the best of my knowledge.

How is my knowledge of how the human body works any different from yours? Is it not true that both professions have the same goal in helping people to feel better? Or is a common goal not enough for you high and mighty MDs?

how is it different? well, pass the boards and then let's talk. yeah, that's what i thought.

Bottom line; I don't care if you don't like what I do. Frankly, I think the philosophy of "people need treatment when they are diseased" is crap. I believe prevention is the most important of ALL care, be it nutritional, chiropractic, massage, etc etc. Your opinion about my profession is moot. You will NOT change my direction in life, NOR my beliefs in the profession I practice. Go on shoving pills down people and reading your AMA approved propaganda. You're no more right than I am, however you will never get me to QUIT defending the profession I have chosen and believe in.

prevention indeed is the most important, and saves a bunch of money in the long run to boot.

however, i AM more right than you are until proven otherwise, since i have provided -- get this -- EVIDENCE to back up my assertions. buck up and post your fabled studies already instead of whining about how i don't respect your beliefs.

 

[Changleen]

Dude. I hope you've washed your hands since then.

 

[DRB]

Sorry I took so Long. But without anti-biotics eariler this summer I'd be dead !



I guess a tick Bite is preventable , But Still....

and doing this for 3 weeks was so much fun

while I believe Chriros are good for some things , they are not the cure alls that some people believe they are.

Suck it up princess. Next time rub some damn dirt on it, crack your neck and chant. Think of all the trouble you would have saved yourself.

 

[DRB]

bunches of words...

You and your silly facts.....

 

[Toshi]

YEAH, statins. LOL. Look, there's no talking to you doctors. You guys are brainwashed by drug compainies and textbooks. When someone decides they want to lower their cholesterol, your saying that they have no other alternative than to take toxic drugs ha? Why? The initial blueprint for humans is perfection. We have deviated from that due to the environment and our reactions to the environment. Look, I'm not saying that they're aren't genetic propensities that exist that could manifest into disease states. But it is the our attitudes and reactions to the environment that triggers the propensities to manifest. Now that's some good info that your doctor (GUESSER) would never tell you, because they are just clones, reading from the same textbook.

GOOD DAY

please reread the post you quoted:

funny you mention drugs to lower cholesterol: there is only so much you can do with diet + exercise (and positive thoughts or whatever you feel like doing). statins have completely changed the ballgame, and many more people are alive for them due to the decreased risk of heart attack when they get their LDL cholesterol down...

you have a point about many of the archaic practices still in modern medicine, but statins are truly one of the greatest successes. eating less nachos and channeling your mental energies back to the mothership or whatever is not going to lower LDL cholesterol from 200 to 80, no matter how you cut it.

 

[splat]

Dude. I hope you've washed your hands since then.

actually I would scrub my hands But good befroe doing that, and lots of Alchol was used too. It really needed to be clean Because after all it was 4 different syringes being injected into my system. it was just some weird deflection from the flash that make my hands look filthy. I know I looked at the pic and couldn't remeber working on my drive train, and that was right after I took the Pic .

 

[splat]

Suck it up princess. Next time rub some damn dirt on it, crack your neck and chant. Think of all the trouble you would have saved yourself.

and Money!!! I did the IV anti-Biotics for 3 weeks 2X a day at $77 per syringe.

 

[Toshi]

back to the cold stuff again. Have you ever tried Cold-eze? Supposedly it's clinically proven to reduce the duration of the common cold.

looks like there is a (single) study out there that supports this altho the picture is still very hazy

http://www.netwellness.uc.edu/question.cfm/4459.htm

Question:

Can a zinc tablet help a cold as well as the Cold Eze lozenges? How many tabs would you have to take (safely) to equal the amt. in a Cold Eze?
Answer:

Cold Eze has 13.3 mg of ionic zinc per lozenge. The usual dose is one lozenge every 3 to 4 hours (about 5 lozenges per day) as soon as you feel cold symptoms coming on.
Plain zinc tablets would be fine as long as they contain ionized zinc. Dosages between 13 to 23 mg. seem to be effective when taken every three hours. There is not a great deal of research to support this method of treatment. However there is a randomized study published in the Annals of Internal Medicine demonstrating a decrease in the length of symptoms and severity of symptoms when ionized zinc is taken at the beginning of cold symptoms.

Keith Wilson, M.D.; Assistant Professor of Otolaryngology; College of Medicine; University of Cincinnati Medical Center

 

[DRB]

and Money!!! I did the IV anti-Biotics for 3 weeks 2X a day at $77 per syringe.

Damn, that's like a million dollars. Did you have to service the insurance co. to get that covered?

 

[OGRipper]

It's pretty frightening how completely entrenched you are in your respective beliefs. I guess you need that kind of commitment to pursue your degrees, but personally I like my health care providers to have a balanced and fair view of what is best for the patient. That seems kind of lost in this discussion. Luckily the professionals I deal with have the wisdom of experience and time away from being forced to regurgitate a particular institution's perception of what is correct. Most of the older docs tell me that mind/body health is a complex combination of science, positive thinking, and balanced fitness and diet, which can include herbal supplements and other natural components, as well as chiro, yoga, etc.

But I have to say that it is not fair to point to a chiro that did a bad job when discussing the merits of chiro in general. There are plenty of doctors that commit malpractice but that doesn't mean the whole thing is bunk.

And Knuck, damn dude I wish I could live in your world, but I can't. But I've lost believing family members to cancer and seen other, more pessimistic people survive with the help of chemo. Positive thought is powerful indeed but it can't stop a freight train.

 

[splat]

Damn, that's like a million dollars. Did you have to service the insurance co. to get that covered?

Don't get me stared on Insurance Companies , I could go into a Knuckles rant about that .

Yeah Insurance covered a lot of it ( my whole Lyme disease episode ) but still it is going to cost m out of Pocket about $3000, all told before insurance was over $25000 I just got a Bill today from the hospital for $9600, last week I got a statement Saying from the insurance saying they paid all but $500. so Time for more time on hold.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

and Money!!! I did the IV anti-Biotics for 3 weeks 2X a day at $77 per syringe.

I hope ya at least got a good buzz!

 

[Toshi]

It's pretty frightening how completely entrenched you are in your respective beliefs. I guess you need that kind of commitment to pursue your degrees, but personally I like my health care providers to have a balanced and fair view of what is best for the patient. That seems kind of lost in this discussion. Luckily the professionals I deal with have the wisdom of experience and time away from being forced to regurgitate a particular institution's perception of what is correct. Most of the older docs tell me that mind/body health is a complex combination of science, positive thinking, and balanced fitness and diet, which can include herbal supplements and other natural components, as well as chiro, yoga, etc.

nice dig on the young and the rash :nuts:

may i point you to the preceding posts that hopefully show a "balanced and fair" outlook, whatever you define that to be

if i had chronic back pain unresponsive to "normal" therapy, sure, i might give [chiropractic] a try.

personally i'm also open to acupuncture, since there's a mixed bag of studies showing its possible efficacy for treatment of pain (in addition to lots of anectdotal evidence)...

it's actually interesting how much complementary and alternative medicine we're taught in (allopathic) med school. we're nothing if not aware... and massage, acupuncture, and chiropractic for back pain (and naturopathy for some non-serious ailments) are all worth a try imo. like i've written several times already in this thread, however, don't go to a chiropractor for neck manipulation, and don't expect homeopathy to do jack squat.

oh yeah, and tell your doctor what herbs/over the counter junk you're taking. it may not hurt you directly (or help you, as they're not FDA regulated and may contain any number of substances which may or may not include the one which is on the label, etc.) but they sometimes do interact negatively with prescribed meds by messing with metabolism in the liver and whatnot.

prevention indeed is the most important, and saves a bunch of money in the long run to boot.

 

[splat]

I hope ya at least got a good buzz!

no actually had some un fun result,

1) I took them every 12 Hours , well for the first 10 They would make it so I was unable to sleep at all the final 2 hr before the Next dose , I would be unable to keep my eyes open. I fell asleep a couple times at the office around 4:30 ( Doses were at 6am and 6 pm )

2) They made me really regular ! Which lasted about 2 weeks after I stopped taking it.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

2) They made me really regular ! Which lasted about 2 weeks after I stopped taking it.

LOL!!! TMI! TMI!

 

[Echo]

Bluebug: Please read the thread and take note of who started throwing personal insults. How was anyone supposed to know your babydoll was studying to be a chiro? Fortunately for you and him, I don't have the time or patience to hunt down every instance of you two making blanket statements that could be interpreted as insults by certain people. Where was your infinite compassion for others when you were having your little laughs at my expense? If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.

 

[DRB]

Where was your infinite compassion for others when you were having your little laughs at my expense?

Uh that was me.... I've got that picture somewhere.... Oh wait you weren't talking about me.... it was the whole infinite compassion thing that threw me.

 

[robdamanii]

Bluebug: Please read the thread and take note of who started throwing personal insults. How was anyone supposed to know your babydoll was studying to be a chiro? Fortunately for you and him, I don't have the time or patience to hunt down every instance of you two making blanket statements that could be interpreted as insults by certain people. Where was your infinite compassion for others when you were having your little laughs at my expense? If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.

No offense, but I simply stated that I studied what I do because Knuckle posted a similar belief. Narlus was the first one to jump on it. Don't show favoritism here, you know very well that he intended to provoke with that comment, and MANY others have done the same WELL after the fact. I've been quite diplomatic since then, and people will simply not leave it at "we have differening opinions, deal with it and leave it at that", but would rather act like an obnoxious religious zealot trying to convert someone to their faith.

I told you in a PM, if you didn't like what was being said, close the thread, you didn't, yet you jump on someone for expressing an opinion. I found Narlis' first comment as a personal jab against my beliefs and profession, and that's as good as a personal insult to me. Apparently you can only have a voice around here if you agree with the majority.

 

[Crazy Sweeper]

I'm not taking sides, but deciding who is right and who is wrong is a freedom the mods have. They can be as biased as they want.

on another note: I've used cold-eze before and I think the stuff works.

 

[robdamanii]

I'm not taking sides, but deciding who is right and who is wrong is a freedom the mods have. They can be as biased as they want.

on another note: I've used cold-eze before and I think the stuff works.

Then they can feel free to ban me if they disagree with my opinions. I will not change them, nor will I let an ignorant group of people try to walk all over something I've chosen to dedicate my time to.

Frankly, the more time I spend here, the more I realize I don't like being here, or like a good portion of the people on here.

 

[Toshi]

Then they can feel free to ban me if they disagree with my opinions. I will not change them, nor will I let an ignorant group of people try to walk all over something I've chosen to dedicate my time to.

Frankly, the more time I spend here, the more I realize I don't like being here, or like a good portion of the people on here.

buh-bye. don't be too dramatic when you go. oops, too late



nice try at self-martyrdom btw