ERIC!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU NOT TO CONFUSE CATHOLICISM WITH CHRISTIANITY!!
Death Penalty = Abortion?
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ERIC!! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU NOT TO CONFUSE CATHOLICISM WITH CHRISTIANITY!!
Yaaaawwwwn,
I'm sorry, did Eric say something?
WTF does the "Catholic Church" have to do with this?
Try to stay on topic.
What is relevant is that those photos were of REAL people who are REALLY dead because somone REALLY MURDERED THEM.
You support that?
Sleep well.
I'm sorry, did Eric say something?
WTF does the "Catholic Church" have to do with this?
Try to stay on topic.
What is relevant is that those photos were of REAL people who are REALLY dead because somone REALLY MURDERED THEM.
You support that?
Sleep well.
Damn Trued said "Yaaaawwwwn,
I'm sorry, did Eric say something?
WTF does the "Catholic Church" have to do with this?
Try to stay on topic.
What is relevant is that those photos were of REAL people who are REALLY dead because somone REALLY MURDERED THEM.
You support that?
Sleep well."
With this view how could you support any kind of military action because people are murdered in that and what are your views on the death penalty? If you support it i don't see how you could because your saying that its wrong to murder so you wouldn't believe in a eye for eye sorta thing.
I'm sorry, did Eric say something?
WTF does the "Catholic Church" have to do with this?
Try to stay on topic.
What is relevant is that those photos were of REAL people who are REALLY dead because somone REALLY MURDERED THEM.
You support that?
Sleep well."
With this view how could you support any kind of military action because people are murdered in that and what are your views on the death penalty? If you support it i don't see how you could because your saying that its wrong to murder so you wouldn't believe in a eye for eye sorta thing.
holy crap! do people not read the thread anymore before posting?
for those with the shorter attention spans: once again.....
At the risk of confusing threads, Judeaism preaches violence (an eye for an eye) in the Old Testament (the operative word being OLD). Christ preaches non-violence (as in turn the other cheek) in the New Testament (not NEW), which is God's NEW message to the Gentiles (and any Jews who wish to take note) which SUPERCEDES the OLD Testament.
And my knowledge of Christianity come sof being a preacher's son, so I know whereof I speak.
Decisions on when is OK to kill revolve around the question of judgement. Hmm, 'Judge not lest ye be judged'?
i guess that being a preachers son meant that you didn't pay attention very well. if you want to take phrases and make them your own to suit your own purpose then feel free, but don't expect anyone with a basic knowledge of the BOOK to follow your one sided views.
........says the seminary scholar
I never made any claims there, reverend manimal.
Just noting that EVERY sect of EVERY major religion that has EVER existed (including mine and yours) has seen fit to "take phrases and make them your own to suit your own purpose." People spend entire lifetimes reading the documents and attempting to apply them to the lives of those around them. It's called interpretation, and it's done by Biblical (or Talmudic, etc.) Scholars. It's really funny and maybe a little bit sad if you think that somehow your take on the Bible is immune to human error or interpretation.
damnit why does everyone bring religion into this? Most religions are too old to properly address new scientific issues, and are interpreted diferently by different people, so stop trying to use them as a moral standard. They're way too malleable or strict.
we're turning this into a religous debate (even though the word "religion" makes me want to vomit). although it is relevant to explain why it seems so ironic when a "christian" is against abortion but has no problem with war. there is such a thing as a "just war", even good 'ole JC talks about it. anyway....yes, every different religion interprets things differently, but what fluff said was a completly ignorant statement, thus my saracasm.
so forgive me for turning this into a sunday school lesson, sometimes i just get fed up with the misquotations so often thrown around in here.
What exactly did I misquote?
What ignorance did I display?
Because I think you are misinterpreting scripture you resort to personal attack and misinformation?
Where was JC's just war?
I'd simply like to understand where you see killing as justified under Christian beliefs.
I'd rather you discussed the points than ignore them and attack me. Is that so much to ask?
Unfortunately mate most of our morals are based on Christian teaching. Trying to separate religion from a moral discussion is very hard as a result.
So address the morals, without dicsussing their religious backgrounds. It says "preaching not allowed!"
To reply to the assertion by Eric and Fluff.
This has nothing to do with RELIGION.
I don't need a book, be it the Pentuatech, Koran, Bible, or the Joy of Cooking for that matter to tell me that it is wrong to MURDER A BABY.
In fact I didn't become a Christian until I was 19, I held this belief for a loooong time before that.
...and I won't reply to the war vs. abortion in terms of its relationship to my beliefs. Too silly an analogy.
This has nothing to do with RELIGION.
I don't need a book, be it the Pentuatech, Koran, Bible, or the Joy of Cooking for that matter to tell me that it is wrong to MURDER A BABY.
In fact I didn't become a Christian until I was 19, I held this belief for a loooong time before that.
...and I won't reply to the war vs. abortion in terms of its relationship to my beliefs. Too silly an analogy.
If you won't reply, fine but is it wrong then to kill a person? Why is an abortion considered murder and not a casualty in the war for human survival?
As far as any legislation in any place in the world is concerned, you are not alive until you are born. You don't get to vote or drive or buy beer 9 months before your birthday because that's when you were conceived. It's as simple as this:
As long as you are "living" inside another person, you have to do whatever the hell they say.
Imagine a bum breaks into your house and begins to sleep in your basement. You feel bad for the man, because he has no home or job and you would like to take care of him, but you need your basement and can;t afford to have a hobo living there. So you decide to kick him out. As he is about to leave, your neighbor runs over and says "I beleive that we should care for one another, so you have to take care of that hobo." And he forces you to keep the hobo in your basement and feed him and buy him clothes. Fair? I should think not.
No one has the right to force their beliefs upon another, especially in such a personal issue.
so now the child is equated to a hobo? you forgot a very important piece of that poorly organized analogy. the hobo didn't come into your house on it's own free will. he didn't CHOOSE to be there but you sure chose to kick him out, er...kill him.
It was just an analogy.... the moral of the story came at the end. Give me a break...I'm bored to hell seeing as there's no school this whole week yet its 15 degrees outside and 4 inches of snow. And my trials bike broke 
edit: By the way, in your sig, what is "Project 86"?
edit: By the way, in your sig, what is "Project 86"?
"No one has the right to force their beliefs upon another, especially in such a personal issue."
If we are talking about most things (food preferance, football team alegience, religion, etc) you are correct.
But I don't care who you are, if you think it is ok for a woman to MURDER her baby, you are dead wrong.
If we are talking about most things (food preferance, football team alegience, religion, etc) you are correct.
But I don't care who you are, if you think it is ok for a woman to MURDER her baby, you are dead wrong.
Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
It was just an analogy.... the moral of the story came at the end. Give me a break...I'm bored to hell seeing as there's no school this whole week yet its 15 degrees outside and 4 inches of snow. And my trials bike broke
edit: By the way, in your sig, what is "Project 86"?
project 86 is a band. check them out sometime.....melodic hardcore from OC, CA. promoted a few shows for them when i was stationed out there. DT had a thread a while back quoting song lyrics and had one of their better songs on it.
For the record I didn't bring religion into this discussion I was simply responding to anther post which used Christian beliefs to condemn abortion but defend killing in the circumstances of war.
One of the reasons that I do not consider myself a Christian is that I cannot reconcile certain of my personal beliefs with those I would consider correct for a true Christian and the hypocrisy I have seen in others (not a reference to you) who (IMHO) portray themselves as Christians yet use dodgy interpretations (a la Bill Clinton 'I did not have sexual relations with that woman' (misquote but you know the one I mean)) to justify actions inconsistent with the bible's teachings is abhorrent to me. As Christ says 'he who drinks unworthily from this cup drinks unto himself damnation' (another misquote but it's close) so I'd rather be an honest pagan than a dishonest believer. My personal integrity is more important to me than appearances.
This discussion has now pretty much decayed into a thread of people stating their view with an 'I'm right, you're wrong because I see it this way' cant to it, which is not really useful anymore.
Clearly the two pivotal questions are;
Is a foetus a person with rights from conception or only from birth?
and
Is it OK to kill a person?
If one believes the answer to the first question to be that you are only a person after birth (or some random point during gestation) then the second question becomes irrelevant within a certain timeframe.
The second question would probably elicit a 'no' from most in this debate. But I would be interested in hearing the views of those who have even a qualified 'yes', along with reasoning of course.
Screw it!
I hate babies, kill em all.
Anybody know what's Pink, Silver and Red, and cant turn around in a hallway?
A baby with a Javelin through its throat................
ha!
I hate babies, kill em all.
Anybody know what's Pink, Silver and Red, and cant turn around in a hallway?
A baby with a Javelin through its throat................
ha!
That time of the month again, eh?
why'd the monkey fall out of the tree?
Because it was dead
why'd the baby fall out of the tree?.......
It was stapled to the monkey.
What crawls around in circles and cries a lot?
A baby with its foot nailed to the floor.
(I'll be here all week folks.)
Again, in all cultures and legislation, birth is considered the beginning of life. If you are not performing all of the life functions by yourself, you are not alive. I adressed this in an earlier post.
Is it OK to kill a person? In some cases, yes. Even if we concede the point that a fetus is a living person (otherwise it wouldn't be killing, just removing), it is still not as conscious as, say a 5-year old. And, since the world is overpopulated, either the 5 year old or the baby is going to die, and both are going to suffer terribly anyway. Spend your resources and time on extending aid to others and not being selfish. The amount of money spent on a single american child can probably feed and care for countless generations in other countries.
Is that right? So you can prove that ALL cultures and legislatures consider birth the beginning of life? I beg to differ. I would suggest that many in Italy, Poland, Germany, Ireland and America would consider conception the beginning of life. I won't try to speak for cultures I am not familiar with, but would guess that most of South America's cultures would agree with conception being the start of life as well.
You should be wary of using absolutes in your arguments, because there are almost always exceptions.
Data, I crave hard data that shows the earth can't support it's inhabitants.
If were just throwing stuff out I say If dictators were removed from power starvation would end.
"Spend your resources and time on extending aid to others and not being selfish."
What could be more selfish that to murder a child because it presents an inconvienence?
What could be more selfish that to murder a child because it presents an inconvienence?
Out of curiousity, where do you stand on euthanasia DT?
What could be more selfish than to be forced to bear a child you don't want by a government that is banning you from having a readily available medical proedure? Now you are harming 3 people, 4 if there is a father involved, instead of 1 quasi-human which is not a separate entity and has neither emotions nor consciousness.
If you don't think the world (or at least large parts of the world) are overpopulated, you should start paying attention to global issues. Starvation, lack of medical care and shelter are real problems.
As far as I (and any other humans on the face of this earth who give a damn about other people) are concerned, you should not be having a child that you are not totally prepared for and able to give the best life possible to. If you don't want it, don't have it. We have enough people as is.
Tough question.
Most folks, myself included, view suicide as an act of selfishness. As someone who has been personally touched by suicide I have a hard time seeing euthenasia as anything but. However, if decided upon in lucidity and discussed with family I suppose I can understand the desire to end one's own suffering from a painful illness.
I however couldn't do it.
That being said, my H.S. football coach was Charlie Wedemeyer. You may have heard about him. He is the H.S. football coach who has Lou Gherigs (sp?) disease. He was given 2 years to live in 1982. He is still alive today. God has given him the ability to touch thousands of lives, including mine. Had he decided to end it years ago none of that would have been possible.
Most folks, myself included, view suicide as an act of selfishness. As someone who has been personally touched by suicide I have a hard time seeing euthenasia as anything but. However, if decided upon in lucidity and discussed with family I suppose I can understand the desire to end one's own suffering from a painful illness.
I however couldn't do it.
That being said, my H.S. football coach was Charlie Wedemeyer. You may have heard about him. He is the H.S. football coach who has Lou Gherigs (sp?) disease. He was given 2 years to live in 1982. He is still alive today. God has given him the ability to touch thousands of lives, including mine. Had he decided to end it years ago none of that would have been possible.
ummm yeah this is about abortion. suicide sucks. Don't do it unless you're in a utilitarianism scenario.
edit: sorry - didn't see the other post.
edit: sorry - didn't see the other post.
First:
I have been all over Central and South America, Eastern Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. I have seen abject poverty to a degree that you cannot imagine. I have held HIV infected infants in my arms. Abortion is not the answer to any of this. Education is. Don't tell me about "The world" young man when you have yet to see it.
As for your second point:
Wrong. If you are not totally prepared for and able to give a good life to a child you should not be humping. Providing an easy way out of the concequence for irresponsibility in the form of legalized MURDER is not the answer. Personal accountability is.
Furthermore, the notion that a child should not be born unless it can be born into "the best life possible" is absurd. The POTENTIAL of any life to go beyond from whence it was born is limitless and should not be disregarded. How many among us (adults that is) are currently living at a standard far above that which our parents lived? Poverty is neither a life sentance nor is it necessarily a bad thing. People live happy and fulfilled lives w/o having tons of stuff.
What kind of Education? I'll let you answer that before I respond to the second part.
You are kidding right?
In the case of third world types we should educate them about how to PREVENT an ill-timed or unafordable pregnancy. In the case of western types we do the same rather than provide an easy out for irresponsible behavior.
BTW pro-abortion people don't support the cause out of some sort of philanthropic concern for third world people and global issues such as hunger and disease. They support it because they want the ability to avoid accountability for their own actions. A far more harmful social problem than hunger.
OK so even with the education that you provide(which we do have in many places) there can still be "accidents", be they human error or otherwise. You don't want to punish the responsible people because of some manufacturing error or something. You seem to believe that abortions are used as a method of birth control in place of contraceptives. We already adressed this earlier.
Now, in LDC's where they have problems with population, we do have educational organizations. Part of that education teaches that no method is foolproof and that all are subject to failure. There should always be a "way out" provided.
Now, in LDC's where they have problems with population, we do have educational organizations. Part of that education teaches that no method is foolproof and that all are subject to failure. There should always be a "way out" provided.
You said it. No method of birth control is 100% effective.
So the bottom line is this.
If you can't be accountable for doing so, stop humping or get spayed.
So the bottom line is this.
If you can't be accountable for doing so, stop humping or get spayed.
I could not agree more. If our government had any foresight, sex education programs and birth control subsidization, both foreign and domestic, would be part of the DOD. Then maybe they'd get some funding.
Right now we're leaving it, for the most part, to various charitable organizations sending mixed messages, and without the power to gain the access they really need. And don't tell me about the Peace Corps... they're great people, but the program is far more beneficial to the volunteers than it is the aid recipients.
We also should have developed a pill for men by now.
I wanted to post your whole response to keep context.
This is so true. I'm all about preventing pregnancy.