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"democracy without Islam"

patconnole

Monkey
Jun 4, 2002
396
0
bellingham WA
good read, pretty informative.
http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/1154.cfm

Here's the first half.

The latest hiccup in American plans to control and exploit Iraq is the emergence of strong Islamist (Shiite) forces within the country. These religio-political forces are vehemently opposed to both the “secular” [Ahmad] Chalabi-led administration that Washington is trying to foist on them and a continued U.S. presence in Iraq. Their chants are “No to America!” and “Yes to an Islamic state!”

It is not so much the extremism of these views that alarms America as the fact that they are being echoed by the Iraqi people. A desire to be rid of America pervades Iraqi society; close behind it is the desire to bring the clerics into government. The reasons for this are obvious: a deeply conservative society, pent-up religious passions, a political vacuum (both the result of suppression under Saddam Hussein), and the humiliation of occupation. For now, Islam is the only avenue through which Iraqis can express their feelings and sentiments. The end result is equally obvious: If elections are held tomorrow, they will bring Islamists into power.

The Bush administration is well aware of the Islamist threat. If it comes to fruition, all America’s strategic planning for the region will come to naught. Instead of reaping the harvest of Iraqi oil and spreading Western values among Iraq’s neighbors, Washington will have to deal with a hostile regime in Baghdad that could lead others up the Islamist path. The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 was non-Arab and too extreme to inspire the Arab world. An Iraqi Islamic revolution in the post-9/11 world would be an infinitely more attractive role model.

How to deal with this threat? Why, with threats of one’s own! First came the warnings to Iran not to interfere in Iraq’s internal affairs. These warnings are a futile attempt to curb Islamist sentiment—futile because post-Saddam Iraq’s Islamist fervor is not imported from Iran. It has totally indigenous roots. (They also reveal American frustration in Iraq: Unable to lash out at the clerics or the Iraqi public, Washington is venting that frustration on Iran.) Then comes U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s direct warning to the Iraqi people, saying, “If you’re suggesting, how would we feel about an Iranian-type government with a few clerics running everything in the country, the answer is: That isn’t going to happen.”

The significance of Rumsfeld’s warning is immense. What it does, in effect, is to deny the Iraqi people the very freedom and democracy that George Bush had promised them before the war. The message to the Iraqis is simple: “You can choose who rules over you, but only if your choice is pro-American and secular. You cannot choose a government that is anti-American and Islamist.” This is democracy with very long strings attached.

On a deeper, more philosophical level, Rumsfeld is denying the possibility that democracy and Islam can co-exist. Or rather, he is denying the value of democracy that brings in Islam. Rumsfeld is not the first Western leader to make this kind of democratic value judgment. In the Cold War era, the enemy was communism. Undemocratic leaders were tolerated, even welcomed, so long as they kept the communists at bay. In the post-Cold War years, particularly after 9/11, the enemy is Islam: All manner of despotic leaders and governments can be—indeed should be—supported if they keep the Islamists out of power.

There is no shortage of examples to illustrate this phenomenon. Start with Algeria. After years of military rule, the first democratic elections in the country’s history were held in 1991. The initial two rounds pointed to a majority for the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) in the National Assembly. The military junta promptly canceled the final round of voting, banned the FIS, and launched a campaign of brutal suppression. Its unquestionably undemocratic conduct was applauded by George Bush Sr. and, among others, the French.

Move east to Egypt. Hosni Mubarak succeeded Anwar Sadat in power more than two decades ago. He has “won” every election since then. This is a remarkable record for a democratic country but not so remarkable for a country that crushes the political opposition—predominantly Islamist—with ruthless use of state instruments of suppression. Yet Mubarak’s government is the second-largest recipient of U.S. aid in the world (the largest being Israel, a country that unabashedly takes state suppression to new heights).

read on...
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
One of the issues with what you posted is that Iraqis want a gov't. of their choice, but USA won't let them if it's religious, specifically Islamic, in nature.

Is the rest of the world that blind to the political system in America? Don't the Iraqis understand that we have a new "system" every few years. Ok, so on the outside chance that Bush gets re-elected, they have to tolerate us a few more years. If their faith has survived the 100s/1000s of years under so many different situations, why can't they just wait out this Administration.

In a few years, we/USA will go in a completely different direction and they can do what they want then.

They really should milk us, placate us, and suck up to us for just a few years to rebuild their infrastructure, we'll get bored and before anyone realizes it, Iraqis will be back in control of Iraq.

I'm probably wrong tho, look at Japan. Granted, that's a bit of a different situation.

That's my complaint with our government... lack of a cohesive long-term plan regarding anything. If the PotUS and the entire Congress flipped between Demos and Repubs every few years, the US would become schizophrenic.


umm, sorry... /end tangential rantings.

Oh, one last thing... this is what Madeline Albright is/was concerned about. She and Clinton admin worked hard to build relations with North Korea... then things slid backwards. Apparently, NK doesn't understand our system, their confused and scared, and they don't know who in our system they can trust to build long-term relations.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by LordOpie


Oh, one last thing... this is what Madeline Albright is/was concerned about. She and Clinton admin worked hard to build relations with North Korea... then things slid backwards. Apparently, NK doesn't understand our system, their confused and scared, and they don't know who in our system they can trust to build long-term relations.
Quit getting your news from the daily show Opie:D

Actually, i watched that one too, and i must say, John Stewart did pretty well for that halfway-serious interview. I was impressed.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by BurlySurly
Quit getting your news from the daily show Opie:D

Actually, i watched that one too, and i must say, John Stewart did pretty well for that halfway-serious interview. I was impressed.
ok, got me, BUT regardless of i being the DS, it *was* The Bad@ss lady herself talking :p

I love it when she said, "they don't understand our system, they've been run by the father and the son for the past 50 yrs." And Jon replied something like, "Yeah, it's not like we'd have the father and the son running our country." John kills me. :D

PS: My post above... I'm not even gonna re-read it. I probably should delete it, cuz after we rode last night, we drank, so I was tired and buzzed... if it made sense... wow!
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by LordOpie
Ok, so on the outside chance that Bush gets re-elected, they have to tolerate us a few more years. If their faith has survived the 100s/1000s of years under so many different situations, why can't they just wait out this Administration.

In a few years, we/USA will go in a completely different direction and they can do what they want then.

Given what you said in your following post did you really mean what you wrote above?

Why should the US administration put any restrictions on the government that the Iraqi people should vote for, unless it wasn't really a war of liberation?

One of the cornerstones of democracy is the freedom of the people to vote for whoever they want. If the Iraqi people want an Islamic government they should be allowed to have it.

I can't see the idea of democracy without Christianity flying in the US, or democracy without Judaism in Isreal.

Whether the Arabic world is blind to the US system the US is certainly blind to the Islamic world.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Originally posted by fluff


Why should the US administration put any restrictions on the government that the Iraqi people should vote for, unless it wasn't really a war of liberation?

Of course it wasn't a war of liberation. After 9/11 the US needed to kick some ass and that's what they did. After it was decided that Iraq would be a relatively simple target the rationale was prepared, free Iraq, WMDs yadda yadda yadda. Now that "revenge" has been achieved the US and the West could probably give a f*ck what happens in Iraq as long as a client regime is installed. Look at Afghanistan.
I guess it will be for history to judge if getting rid of Saddam alone was justification enough for the invasion. Perhaps it was but Bush and Blair still felt that, if not outright lies, then a very cavalier regard for the truth was necessary to "sell" the war.
The irony is is that if WMDs aren't found then we are no safer than we were at the start of this. I mean Saddam couldn't have given the WMDs to terrorists groups if he didn't have them. So we are back to where we started although it is certainly possible that one reason nothing has been found is because it's all sitting in a cave in North West Pakistan. Unlikely, but possible. Does anyone seriously doubt that at this very moment Osama and his minions aren't planning something unspeakable? I for one certainly don't feel any safer, in fact I feel things are gonna hit the fan in a big way. I hope to hell I'm wrong.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by valve bouncer
Of course it wasn't a war of liberation. After 9/11 the US needed to kick some ass and that's what they did. After it was decided that Iraq would be a relatively simple target the rationale was prepared, free Iraq, WMDs yadda yadda yadda. Now that "revenge" has been achieved the US and the West could probably give a f*ck what happens in Iraq as long as a client regime is installed. Look at Afghanistan.
I guess it will be for history to judge if getting rid of Saddam alone was justification enough for the invasion. Perhaps it was but Bush and Blair still felt that, if not outright lies, then a very cavalier regard for the truth was necessary to "sell" the war.
The irony is is that if WMDs aren't found then we are no safer than we were at the start of this. I mean Saddam couldn't have given the WMDs to terrorists groups if he didn't have them. So we are back to where we started although it is certainly possible that one reason nothing has been found is because it's all sitting in a cave in North West Pakistan. Unlikely, but possible. Does anyone seriously doubt that at this very moment Osama and his minions aren't planning something unspeakable? I for one certainly don't feel any safer, in fact I feel things are gonna hit the fan in a big way. I hope to hell I'm wrong.
You're partially right about it being about revenge and testosterone, but it's mostly about the USA being able to better station and position military in the region.

Since it's a *known* fact that Iraq had WMDs, your point about them possibly sitting in NW Pakistan -- or anywhere unstable -- is an excellent and frightening one. Based on information from the UN, et.al., they did have them... so where the fvck are they! The situation is worse cuz if Osama knows, well, he's more a nut-job than Saddam and he WILL use them, whereas Saddam might not.

I hope you're wrong too, but I doubt it. Fortunately for me, I don't really care if the planet goes to ****. Mother Nature will rebuild with something better.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Originally posted by LordOpie
You're partially right about it being about revenge and testosterone, but it's mostly about the USA being able to better station and position military in the region.

Since it's a *known* fact that Iraq had WMDs, your point about them possibly sitting in NW Pakistan -- or anywhere unstable -- is an excellent and frightening one. Based on information from the UN, et.al., they did have them... so where the fvck are they! The situation is worse cuz if Osama knows, well, he's more a nut-job than Saddam and he WILL use them, whereas Saddam might not.

I hope you're wrong too, but I doubt it. Fortunately for me, I don't really care if the planet goes to ****. Mother Nature will rebuild with something better.
It's certainly a valid question to ask where the WMDs are because as you said they definitely had them. It's bitterly ironic that perhaps the only way we might have ever found out what happened to them was if inspections were allowed to continue. One for the "what if" file however. It further poses an interesting question. Presumably, but by no means certainly, Saddam may still be in power if he'd owned up to the weapons. Now we may never know what happened. Would it have been better to leave Saddam in power but with the knowledge that he doesn't have any WMD or is the present situation better? Either way it's f*cked up.
I think the whole mess just goes to show how ill-conceived the "war on terror" has been. Revenge is fine but it's a dish best served cold. A bit more thought and reflection now may save untold lives in the future.
 

Thepagoda

Chimp
Aug 31, 2002
60
0
Davis, CA
It should not come as any surprise that the successor regime in Iraq is going to be heavily guided by the US, and highly slanting to the desires of the Iraqi people. The implications of such a plan are what are fundamentallly disquieting. First off the plan further destabilizes the region in terms of US sentiment, and secondly it actuall gives more people a reason to legitimately dislike the US as our government supresses their people.

The parallel drawn between the communists of the cold war era and the muslims of today has very frightening implications, and is not all that far fetched. The response to 9/11 has been very anti-islamic. Looking at this from the perspective of islamic peoples abroad, this is a very frightening prospect. A McCarthyistic response to muslims worldwide is potentially devastating. Polarizing the world based on religion (in the name of democracy) is morally wrong, but its happening.