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Do you really need independent HSC/LSC?

bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
I ride a 2009 888 RC3 ATA. Not the most advanced piece of machinery I know but it's simple and RC3 performs better than I warrant.

What I am having trouble wrapping my head around is the use of independent tuning options for HS/LS compression. I understand the concept that you now have the ability to tune out fork dive a bit more but I don't understand why you would sacrifice your small bump compliance for a bit of dive. The way I understand it is every long travel fork with a DH tune on it suffers from dive...no exceptions.

I guess my questions is, if a high end company life Avalanche is choosing to use a single compression and rebound adjustment for their cart then what are the real advantages to having indi? Marketing bs?

I know with the FiT and MiCo DH you can tune your shimstack as well but dude...with that many options it seems like you would need to take a 10 hour course on suspension dynamics and then get 20+ hours of riding on the thing just to figure out where to start...that's not even considering that as soon as you ride a new trail your pretty much starting over.

Short of having a full blown suspension tech that dials your rig in for every ride how many people really need so many adjustments? Don't even start on dual rate rebound...
 
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Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
If you're happy with what you're running, who cares? Just ride! :)
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Actualy I think the opposite - who needs small bump sensitivity if you can get more stability. Does picking up every little rock on the trail really help you ? It is cool but not really much and it may be why I'm not so hot for the marz omg butterness.

BTW - it's not rocket science and it simply gives more options to people. Also if i'm not wrong in most cases with one dial you also sacrifice small bump sensitivity so what's the differance there ;)
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
I ride a 2009 888 RC3 ATA. Not the most advanced piece of machinery I know but it's simple and RC3 performs better than I warrant.

What I am having trouble wrapping my head around is the use of independent tuning options for HS/LS compression. I understand the concept that you now have the ability to tune out fork dive a bit more but I don't understand why you would sacrifice your small bump compliance for a bit of dive. The way I understand it is every long travel fork with a DH tune on it suffers from dive...no exceptions.

I guess my questions is, if a high end company life Avalanche is choosing to use a single compression and rebound adjustment for their cart then what are the real advantages to having indi? Marketing bs?

I know with the FiT and MiCo DH you can tune your shimstack as well but dude...with that many options it seems like you would need to take a 10 hour course on suspension dynamics and then get 20+ hours of riding on the thing just to figure out where to start...that's not even considering that as soon as you ride a new trail your pretty much starting over.

Short of having a full blown suspension tech that dials your rig in for every ride how many people really need so many adjustments? Don't even start on dual rate rebound...
Almost every "single" adjuster for either compression or rebound is a low-speed adjuster, though every low speed adjuster on earth also has some bearing on high-speed flow. Having separate LS and HS adjusters doesn't actually take anything away, it just adds a high speed adjuster to what you'd have if you only had the one.

If you are picky - and some of us are, not because we "need" to be but because we can be - then yes independent HS and LS adjusters are surprisingly useful. If you're happy with your "simpler" setup then consider yourself lucky, because you're part of the MTB population that is enjoying their ride without having to dump $$$ into it. From my perspective as an amateur racer and suspension nerd, I like getting my bike to feel really dialled, it's just some obscure form of satisfaction for me even though I'm not actually winning races. Count yourself lucky that you don't want for that - it saves you a lot of money and lets you have fun without being so obsessed with setup!
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
Do you really need independent HSC/LSC?
Only if A) you don't like how your fork performs right out of the box AND/OR B) you want to be able to change both to suit a certain track.

If you think your fork is set perfectly already with the adjustments you have all the time then you don't need them.

I understand the concept that you now have the ability to tune out fork dive a bit more but I don't understand why you would sacrifice your small bump compliance for a bit of dive.
I run the LSC adjusters either all the way or close to it in on my Fox forks most of the time, and I think it results in faster times on my local trails. For example - I recently upgraded a 36 Van R to an 09 RC2 cartridge, and am running the LSC full in. Compared to stock setting on the R cartridge - A) the front end stays up now through steep tech sections, allowing me to feel comfortable carrying more speed and B) I can brake later into corners as my geometry doesn't change nearly as much under hard braking and I'm better set-up coming out of corners. I don't notice the loss of small bump compliance when I'm traveling at DH speeds.
 

stinky6

Monkey
Dec 24, 2004
517
0
Monroe
If you know how to tune your suspension and want that performance advantage on every track, yeah its good to have. If you don't know what your doing or just don't care that you may be one second slower then probably a waste of money.

I recently had my DHX tuned by a local guy and I think having a shock that is specifically valved for me was better than upgrading to a RC4 and cheaper.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,030
5,918
borcester rhymes
If you're happy with what you're running, who cares? Just ride! :)
:stupid:

Basically, this. If you're unsatisfied, you'll have the ability to adjust and correct, but otherwise, you don't need it. I find it comical that people get so moist about the double barrel's range of adjustment. Yes, you can get extremes of damping from its adjusters, but do you ever really need a 3:1 damped shock on a 2.3:1 rate bike? Not likely.

I was extremely satisfied with the damping on my big bike, to the point that after I dialed it in, I really didn't care to change it for anything. On my current bike, I'm a little less satisfied and adjust and tinker accordingly.
 

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
i recently had my dhx tuned by a local guy and i think having a shock that is specifically valved for me was better than upgrading to a rc4 and cheaper.
bingo!

Valving is generic on most major shock suppliers only recently have they been paying more attention to the frame guys and custom tuning for the bikes and leverage ratios. The problem with this is now john doe cant sell his shock that fits his bike to joe schmoe because the bikes have different leverage ratios and now he needs to sent it back and have it tuned.
The tune they do is a general for the bike and usually not rider and weight so again its an overall and they leave the extra adjustments up to you to dial it in and get it close.
To properly get a shock set they need to design it with your weight, style, leverage ratio of bike and then get a shim stack in there.
Then its in the neighborhood of you and not some guy 75lbs heavier and then you can adjust with only a couple of adjusters vs all the bells and whistles.

So after rambling I guess my point is a custom tuned shock (given its a decent unit) is better for the individual then a generic with lots of this and that.
 
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rigidhack

Turbo Monkey
Aug 16, 2004
1,206
1
In a Van(couver) down by the river
Personally, there are two things that I really don't like my fork to do: 1.)dive 2.) bottom out all the time. The separate adjustments let me dial in what I want. I prefer to have the fork stand tall in its travel, so I tend to run lots of LSC. I like the option of softening it a bit if I am riding fast open trails, like the big jump lines at Whistler. Your mileage may vary.
 
Feb 13, 2002
1,087
17
Seattle, WA
Personally, there are two things that I really don't like my fork to do: 1.)dive 2.) bottom out all the time. The separate adjustments let me dial in what I want. I prefer to have the fork stand tall in its travel, so I tend to run lots of LSC. I like the option of softening it a bit if I am riding fast open trails, like the big jump lines at Whistler. Your mileage may vary.
Dude, if you're bottoming out all the time it means you need a harder spring rate, not compression damping. That's like buying a pair of pants in the wrong size and then getting them tailored. Just buy the right size pants in the first place!
 

bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
I appreciate your guy's feedback.

I consider myself a 'suspension nerd' but yep, never really found the need for indi adjusters.

I totally agree on the custom shock tune and to be honest that's the biggest downfall on my Faith...SPV Swinger 4...sucks a**. It's going to Avy to get a shimmed setup asap. However I really have been considering holding out for a ROCO Air WC just because I like the infinitely adjustable preload (being only 140lbs or so). Hints the ATA...

Thanks again,
Bikesair
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
From my perspective as an amateur racer and suspension nerd, I like getting my bike to feel really dialled, it's just some obscure form of satisfaction for me even though I'm not actually winning races. Count yourself lucky that you don't want for that - it saves you a lot of money and lets you have fun without being so obsessed with setup!
Amen to that...

Not true, what about the p*rn stars that I watch when my wife is out but have never had :D
Trust me, not missing much. Having seen enough of them in person, you're much better off with a natural looking lady who has real experience. Most of those chicks are straight gnarly looking up close.
 

go-ride.com

Monkey
Oct 23, 2001
548
6
Salt Lake City, UT
I think there is definitely an advantage if you have two things:
1. A working knowledge of when to use LSC and HSC
2. A tuner that the set the HSC circuit to work the way most riders want it to

Without getting too detailed the way most suspension mfgs build HSC circuits works very well for shocks, but not perfectly for forks. They call the second adjuster a HSC, but really its more of a transition from LSC to HSC. Most riders I talk with that have HSC often set it to full open, adjust to the correct spring rate and preload, then fine tune with the LSC adjuster. Most complain that the HSC adjuster makes the fork harsh on choppy terrain that is all over the area I ride. Hopefully, I'll have some options for the two more popular forks with HSC that allows you to use a larger range of adjustment without the fork getting rough.
 

dilzy

Monkey
Sep 7, 2008
567
1
Dude, if you're bottoming out all the time it means you need a harder spring rate, not compression damping. That's like buying a pair of pants in the wrong size and then getting them tailored. Just buy the right size pants in the first place!
The spring is only there to hold you weight up in the static sense. Damping is there for dynamic control. Unless he's bottoming sitting on the bike, it's more comp damping he needs, not a harder spring.
 

rigidhack

Turbo Monkey
Aug 16, 2004
1,206
1
In a Van(couver) down by the river
Chomps, I already run a firm spring and if I went with an X-firm there would be no sag at all. That having been said, I like drops and I like to huck off of things, so HSC actually does come into play for my typical rides. A good job on spotting the obvious though.

I find that a turn of the HSC translates into the LSC adjustments as well, so they are not exactly independent. Having the two does allow for a good range of very fine tuning.
 
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Feb 13, 2002
1,087
17
Seattle, WA
The spring is only there to hold you weight up in the static sense. Damping is there for dynamic control. Unless he's bottoming sitting on the bike, it's more comp damping he needs, not a harder spring.
1/3 of the shock's stroke should be run as sag. Assuming at least a somewhat progressive shock rate, and a somewhat smooth rider, this will result in bottoming the bike out once or twice per run, as God intended.

Two rules:
1) Never apply complicated technology as a band-aid for poor technique.
2) Never do something with complicated technology that can be done with simple technology.
 
Feb 13, 2002
1,087
17
Seattle, WA
I find that a turn of the HSC translates into the LSC adjustments as well, so they are not exactly independent. Having the two does allow for a good range of very fine tuning.
True. This is the reason for rule #2 -- HSC isn't a magical fairy knob that will prevent bottoming out without changing the ride in any other way. Compromises are being made.

I suggest a stint of zen hardtail (or bmx) training. You don't need hsc to go big. In fact, you don't need suspension to go big.

 
Feb 13, 2002
1,087
17
Seattle, WA
Actualy I think the opposite - who needs small bump sensitivity if you can get more stability. Does picking up every little rock on the trail really help you ? It is cool but not really much and it may be why I'm not so hot for the marz omg butterness.
Quick addendum here: small bump sensitivity isn't about comfort, it's about traction. The more your tires are hugging the ground, the more you can get sideways.
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
Hi, my name is bikesair, and I posted a poorly written and semi-troll post on another MTB web site. I got called out there for by blatent bias and inflamitory statements, so I thought I might try to get someone here to agree with me. Will someone here support me if I put a better spin on this?

"90% of the riders on this forum couldn't tell the difference between and RC3 and MoCo if you put them up to the pepsi challenge.

Give me a bullet proof stiff a** chassis any day of the week before a plastic piece of rock shox crap."

"Okay first off, about every suspension manufacturer will tell you that stock damping is more than adequate for even a racer. If you can tell me that Brain Lope's RC3 cart has a modified shim stack I would be pretty surprised. Maybe now that they have Evo they may be throwing custom tunes down but back when RC3 was it, he rode what we did.

I pulled apart a 2009 reba the other day after it blew up and to my surprise it looked like the whole damper assembly and lock out was just a series of plastic ports that you adjust.

Haha god forbid its a closed cart with a single compression adjuster. I'm pretty sure Avalanche has a single compression adjuster in their new damper. It doesn't matter that its a closed cart, how many riders actually service their cart when it blows up? Again, 95% of the riders will send it back for warranty and with Marzocchi at least I can send it back myself...not through some half a** distributor.

As for climbing, don't buy a Zoke. Their heavy and the RC3 has no inertia valving. Buy a TST and wait for it to break...just like all of Rock Shox 2010 stuff.

If I'm gonna buy anything but a Zoke it's gonna be a Manitou or Fox. They may not have the best customer service but you don't have to worry about them blowing up after one ride.

...Put Joe user on a fork with independent HS/LS compression and rebound adjust and their going to tune it wrong...

...my super-t with rebound adjust is more than adequate for pretty much all the riding I do. Same with my Float R...

"
...Please....
 
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bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
Hi, my name is bikesair, and I posted a poorly written and semi-troll post on another MTB web site. I got called out there for by blatent bias and inflamitory statements, so I thought I might try to get someone here to agree with me. Will someone here support me if I put a better spin on this?



...Please....
I think SirChomps-a-lot pretty much summarized what you failed to understand from my 'poorly written' post on mtbr.

Two rules:
1) Never apply complicated technology as a band-aid for poor technique.
2) Never do something with complicated technology that can be done with simple technology.

With that said...RC3 is a simple technology that performs excellent when tuned correctly. And yes...I am bias against RockShox because of previous events. I understand that plastic is mechanically appropriate but why would you buy it if another company offers something better?

I think Fox does a good job explaining exactly what SirChomps-a-lot summarized earlier. The majority of the time a fork (maybe not necessarily a shock) provides the the tuning ability that should satisfy the rider. Unfortunately most riders do not take the adequate steps to appropriately tune their suspension. http://www.foxracingshox.com/protune/

As I ended my post on MTBR I will restate here. Marzocchi's RC3 is still a competitive damping system that provides the plush feel that most riders desire while also providing the range of adjustments that most riders require.

The purpose of my post here was to find out how many people utilize the HSC an LSC adjusters and why. Honestly, from what I read, it's split pretty evenly. As in some guys are happy with it out of the box and some guys enjoy the LSC to fine tune their suspension. With that said I still stand by my original statement that if you gave a rider an appropriately tuned RC3 system he will ride just as fast as if he had a MiCo or FiT...even if they don't like it ;)
 
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norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Quick addendum here: small bump sensitivity isn't about comfort, it's about traction. The more your tires are hugging the ground, the more you can get sideways.
I know but most ppl treat it more like " wow I can pick leaves ZOMG!" instead of thinking about the traction. Also adding compression damping doesn't decrease traction noticably in my opinion.

Chomps, I already run a firm spring and if I went with an X-firm there would be no sag at all. That having been said, I like drops and I like to huck off of things, so HSC actually does come into play for my typical rides. A good job on spotting the obvious though.

I find that a turn of the HSC translates into the LSC adjustments as well, so they are not exactly independent. Having the two does allow for a good range of very fine tuning.
Wasn't LSC really taking care of you when you land a jump or drop? It's a big hit but fairly a fast one.
 
Feb 13, 2002
1,087
17
Seattle, WA
Also adding compression damping doesn't decrease traction noticably in my opinion.
I used to run a beat down sherman/5th which had a lot of "compression damping" (i.e. both ends felt like crap). To go DHing on that setup, I had to steal back some small bump compliance with super low psi in the tires. That worked ok except for pinchflats.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
I used to run a beat down sherman/5th which had a lot of "compression damping" (i.e. both ends felt like crap). To go DHing on that setup, I had to steal back some small bump compliance with super low psi in the tires. That worked ok except for pinchflats.
Well I already fun super low psi in the tires (sometimes as low as 16psi front) and ust so no pinchflats and no problems ;)
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
How can you corner at all with 16psi in your front tire unless you're running an Intense 4ply? Any half decent rider would roll the tire right off the rim at that pressure.

Nevermind the cornering actually. Braking alone would shred the tire/tube with pressure that low.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
How can you corner at all with 16psi in your front tire unless you're running an Intense 4ply? Any half decent rider would roll the tire right off the rim at that pressure.

Nevermind the cornering actually. Braking alone would shred the tire/tube with pressure that low.
I'm probably lighter than you ;) I'll prolly have to amp that as I've become a real beefcake over the winter. 70kg right now (copared to early 2009 - 63kg) ;) On 823 + maxxis ust combo I have no problems with tire slide. Unless I don't fit your half descent rider definition that may be the reason ;)

btw. I tried that with regular maxxis tire and dt 6.1 - lost the tire on a jump lip so you are kinda right ;)
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
1,017
My own world inside my head
I look at it like this...Any new fork/shock has some kind of hi and low speed compression control, be it a shim stack, a spring type valve, unless its just really a peice of crap entry line shock. Like others said, they are just usually preset for a wide range at teh factory Via a shim stack....
Do you "need" seperate external adjsuter? No,
Are they nice to have if you know what your doing and dont mind working it a bit...Absolutly.

Im the rider out there that All I really want external is the low speed adjusters.. I like simple and easy. For the front end, I tuned the fork via oil height and weight to match my needs for HSC, 07 66, so not much else can be done on this one<damn sealed internals.

As for the rear, this year will get some kind of an upgrade, be it senging the existing fifth to isotuned for a custom shim stack, or picking up a used DHX and doing the same thing. I looked around at alot of shocks this year, and decided for myself, Im just going to go with simple, with a custom stack that is meant for me and my bike.






Bottom line goes right back to UDI's first statement, if you like what you have, ride it.
 

bikesair

Chimp
Jun 30, 2009
67
0
San Luis Obispo CA
I look at it like this...Any new fork/shock has some kind of hi and low speed compression control, be it a shim stack, a spring type valve, unless its just really a peice of crap entry line shock. Like others said, they are just usually preset for a wide range at teh factory Via a shim stack....
Do you "need" seperate external adjsuter? No,
Are they nice to have if you know what your doing and dont mind working it a bit...Absolutly.

Im the rider out there that All I really want external is the low speed adjusters.. I like simple and easy. For the front end, I tuned the fork via oil height and weight to match my needs for HSC, 07 66, so not much else can be done on this one<damn sealed internals.

As for the rear, this year will get some kind of an upgrade, be it senging the existing fifth to isotuned for a custom shim stack, or picking up a used DHX and doing the same thing. I looked around at alot of shocks this year, and decided for myself, Im just going to go with simple, with a custom stack that is meant for me and my bike.




Bottom line goes right back to UDI's first statement, if you like what you have, ride it.
Udi seems to have a pretty big issue with the fact that I like RC3 so I don't know man. I'm thinking I really need to go pick up a 2010 40 and start turning some knobs.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
I suggest a stint of zen hardtail (or bmx) training. You don't need hsc to go big. In fact, you don't need suspension to go big.
Maybe, but the number of guys out of their twenties doing that is very, very small.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
One of my Avy rear shocks only has one compression adjuster, it's an older style DHS with a valve that is similer to the high/low adjuster valve, but obviously without the same high/low adjustments. It's more of a low-speed adjustment, and running some of this (7 clicks or so) really makes the bike ride nice though choppy rocks without diving all over the place, so it's adding a lot of stability and the shock still blows off nicely for high-speed impacts. This as opposed to my chubbie, where I leave the high speed damping pretty much "open". So I guess if you get a mass-produced one-size-fits-all shock a high speed adjustment may be nice, but not so much on something that is already tuned well.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
Actually on the single adjuster Avalanche shocks, the adjuster compresses both the needle and the poppet spring, so it just increases the compression across the board. The Hi/Lo adjuster just has another threaded piece in it that allows them to be adjusted separately.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
Actually on the single adjuster Avalanche shocks, the adjuster compresses both the needle and the poppet spring, so it just increases the compression across the board. The Hi/Lo adjuster just has another threaded piece in it that allows them to be adjusted separately.
It doesn't restrict the main shim stack, so I was thinking that in the case of the shocks with this particular valve, they'd have the main shim stack set up so that it does affect more of the low-speed range, in fact Avalanche says you can use this to create a "platform" and that the shock will still blow off.

I'd expect to see a different stack on the chubbie I have with the high/low adjuster, because of course you can actually adjust those parameters.

I'd imagine this really depends on the main stack, and how that is set up, the heavier it is, the more that this would be an "overall" adjustment, the lighter it is, the more it would affect low-speed compression more than just "overall".
 
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