[Sandwich]

Anybody have any input on the current generation Spec Enduros, in particular the enduro 29? I’ve had my eye on one for a while, but haven’t been able to afford one. I’ve read the reviews and it sounds like my cup of tea, but I have some reservations, namely the weird shock link and 142+ wheels. I’m also a little concerned about the kinematics, as it doesn’t have a lot of antisquat unless you’re in the 22, which the comp model comes with. Otherwise, it ticks all the boxes, with CCDBaCS compatibility, a great build from the factory, a long front end with nice short chainstays, FSR for active braking, and a pleasant but not dramatic rising rate.

Any other options for big wheeled, long travel bikes that can double as a big trail bike and handle the occasional lift day? Banshee rune or spitfire 650b? Black market roam? I currently have a 650b trail bike, so I could swap some of my components over.

 

[jackalope]

Think you will be pretty limited if you're trying to avoid 142 rear wheel spacing, but I think the Kona Process 111 looks like a killer sled. Although, apparently you're somewhat limited with shock options and I'm not sure how well it would do at a lift serve with 111mm of travel.

 

[Sandwich]

142+, not 142. 142+ literally adds 2mm to the drive side flange spacing, moving the cassette out, and makes roval hubs compatible only with spec rear ends, though other 142mm hubs fit, roval hubs will not fit on normal bikes. yay

 

[ZHendo]

142x12 is becoming very standard on most new bikes, especially in the category that you're eyeing. I just built myself a Banshee Spitfire 650b with a CCDB CS and will be posting a full ride report once the trails are a bit less swampy up here in the Seattle area. As a fan of 26ers, I think that the 140mm format will complement the slightly larger wheel format quite nicely without feeling ungainly, whereas something like the Enduro 29 is less appealing to me purely because it seems like it would be cumbersome in slow and steep situations.

If you're looking at 29" wheels with bigger travel, the Banshee Prime could be a sweet rig to compare alongside the Enduro. Like jackalope said, the Kona Process 111 seems to be getting incredible reviews at every turn, and I personally would put that at the top of my list if I were looking at a 29er.

 

[Sandwich]

el scoopo on the poopo.

I look forward to hearing your review. The Kona has a low pivot and even lower anti squats than the Specialized. I love the geo and design, but that's unfortunately out. Also, they use a similar shock yoke.

I like the prime, but the chainstay length has me running for the hills. 29ers are already slightly slower handling than 26ers, throwing big stays on it will make it a dog.

 

[Beast]

In the 29-inch long travel slacked out world, the Intense Carbine 29 and Niner WFO 9 are also worth a look.

 

[Jim Mac]

Sammich, never go full enduro.

 

[Sandwich]

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

the new wfo I should check out, I suppose.

jimmy, no time for a full on DHer, but no i won't be doing any races. Just riding this during the week on longer rides, and weekends at lifty places.

 

[Jim Mac]

I know the feeling - trail & BMX races for me - no DH.

 

[Sandwich]

Yeah I'll be psyched if I get out to plattekill at all this year...breaking like 14 years of tradition. I should be out to Jiminy and Highland on occasion though.

 

[StiHacka]

How about the Balance? http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/balance
$2.1k with a CCDBACS sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

 

[UncleHowie]

How about the Balance? http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/balance
$2.1k with a CCDBACS sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Looks soo nice in raw

 

[mattmatt86]

I should be receiving my Kona Process 111 any day now, I plan on that being my "quiver killer" and only having that mountain bike for the foreseeable future. I know the travel is on the shorter end of the spectrum but I spoke with Mike Levy from Pinkbike, he put in a ton of seat time on the 111 and said it can absolutely handle DH/Park trails.

His review was probably the biggest reason I bought the bike

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Kona-Process-111-DL-Review-2013.html

Every review I've read has raved about the bike, I can't wait to ride it.

Another bike that is going to come out soon is the Banshee Phantom. The geometry wasn't quite what I saw looking for but it still looks like a killer bike.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Banshee-Phantom-29er-Sea-Otter-2013.html

 

[norbar]

speak with your wallet, that's all you can do.

I'm preparing to spend some dough on an enduro 29er. I friggin hate specialized's market tactics, I hate their love affair with everything SRAM, and I hate their love of forced obsolescence and proprietary fun, but goddamn, did they make an incredible bike that pushed the boundaries of what any other bike company has done, and when you actually look at it on paper, the still expensive lower end bikes are still a very good deal. So, specialized is going to take my money, hire a few more lawyers, sue a few more tiny bike shops, but I'm going to get a bike that suits my needs, because they actually built something that I want.

Then why are you buying it? While not see what the competition offers? That exactly the reason why I'm not buying form Spesh and a few other companies. It's strange that you agree that your wallet is your vote on who owns the market yet you vote for the douchebags. There are comparable products to the enduro.

 

[chillindrdude]

Specialized has nice marketing, poppy graphics that give the illusion of a truely desireable product. Kinda like iphones.

There are plenty of frames that pedal better, as light, and can be built up with a custom part spec for a comparable price.

 

[vikingboy]

There are plenty of frames that pedal better, as light, and can be built up with a custom part spec for a comparable price.

Which ones are you thinking about - Im about to start hunting and given my time on Specialized bikes I'm leaning towards another but open to alternatives. Thx in adv

 

[Sandwich]

Name one. BMC trailfox? Got lukewarm reviews and the frame retails for more than the entire bike that I want. Lenz lunchbox? Mr. lenz has never heard of antisquat. Ibis ripley? Chainstays more than half an inch longer, frame retails for a few hundred less than the bike I want. 650b? Generally an excuse for manufacturers that didn't come out with 29" fast enough, or couldn't get creative enough with big wheels.

I'd love to know of a single other manufacturer that has done as much with the 29" wheel that specialized has. A single bike that has gotten as good reviews as the derpo 29er has, from PB, Vital, NSMB, Bike mag, VT mtb, MBA, and user reviews, and comes in well equipped at 3200. Name it, cause I'll buy it tomorrow.

 

[sikocycles]

Lenz lunchbox

 

[Sandwich]

I should be receiving my Kona Process 111

Another bike that is going to come out soon is the Banshee Phantom. The geometry wasn't quite what I saw looking for but it still looks like a killer bike.

The process has the geometry I want, but Kona insists on selling itself short with pivot height. If it had just been a tiny bit higher, in line with the chainring, you'd have significantly better pedaling performance with likely better suspension performance with no impact on chainstay length....but they didn't. Now you get a bike with 40% antisquat that will climb like a dog and feature game changing geometry. Sigh. He doesn't bag on it in the review, but he also doesn't seem to care all that much. I don't really have long, seated climbs around me, everything is generally short stints up something really steep, so having lots of chaintorque helps immensely.

The Phantom looks rad, and banshee's linkage has lots of AS off the top, but it's only 100mm and it's not out yet...plus, banshee's first releases tend to be duds, then they re-release them to rave reviews, so I'm tepid about being a beta tester.

The lenzchbox has the same problems as the kona, plus a higher price tag :-/

 

[mattmatt86]

Almost every review I've seen about the 111 talks about how well it climbs. I demo'd one for about 2 hours and it climbed as good if not better than my hardtail. This review also commented on the bikes great climbing ability.

 

[Sandwich]

Taking the 111 to your personal limits reveals Kona's singleminded approach to creating a bike that does exactly what you ask of it, so long as you're not pointing straight up the hillside, that is....

Should we expect the short travel Kona to climb like a proper cross-country bike, or would judging it against bikes of similar travel be a bit unfair given how we've spelled out that the 111 is much more than its travel? The fact is that you'll undoubtedly be disappointed if you throw a leg over the Process and expect to climb tricky sections like you should be wearing white bib shorts and a Breathe Right nasal strip - the flip side to the 111's technical prowess on the downs is that it can be quite a handful on the ups. It exhibits many of the traits that a five or six inch all-mountain bike is guilty of on tricky singletrack climbs, with a bit of a light front end that requires a slightly exaggerated forward body position to keep it from lifting, and it pushes a wide arc through tight switchbacks that will have you looking for more real estate. Sure, a strong technical climber might not have much trouble scaling their local singletrack chess match, but those who don't shine at such tasks could feel like they're biting off more than they can chew on the Kona. The 111's saving grace, though, is how much traction its rear end delivers, with the stubby (for a 29er) 430mm/16.9'' rear-center length contributing some serious bite and propelling it up all sorts of sketchy walls. Just concentrate on pointing in the right direction before putting all the traction to use.

If it sounds like we're painting a grim picture of the Process' singletrack climbing abilities, it's only because we don't want potential 111 owners to think they are getting a cross-country flier simply because it has a similar amount of travel to such machines. The 111 compares equally to a ready-for-anything five or six inch travel bike in such settings, which isn't a surprise when looking at its geometry numbers. Climb with this in mind and you'll get it, but forget that fact and all you'll get is frustrated.

I have no doubts in the geometry or the ability to stretch 4 inches of travel in a 29er package...that's half the reason I like big wheels...but I'm extremely leery of any reviewer who says that a low single pivot pedals well, and cutting through the BS that every reviewer spews is pretty challenging. Can it be grinded up a fire road comfortably so you can destroy the back side? Absolutely. Will it sap your power when you're trying to mash up a wall strewn with rocks n ****? Yeah, that too.

 

[Samoto]

Sandwich, good luck with spesho

 

[slyfink]

The latest issue of Dirt has a head to head comparison of the Enduro 29,intense carbine, and BMC trailfox. If you can decipher what Jonesy is saying it might be worth a look.

 

[Sandwich]

I might have to see if I can find that.

 

[mattmatt86]

I have no doubts in the geometry or the ability to stretch 4 inches of travel in a 29er package...that's half the reason I like big wheels...but I'm extremely leery of any reviewer who says that a low single pivot pedals well, and cutting through the BS that every reviewer spews is pretty challenging. Can it be grinded up a fire road comfortably so you can destroy the back side? Absolutely. Will it sap your power when you're trying to mash up a wall strewn with rocks n ****? Yeah, that too.

Honestly, I don't know enough about anti-squat or suspension kinematics to know exactly what the bike is doing under me, the only time I can really tell something about the suspension is when it's doing something completely wrong. I have never reached the top of a climb and said "if only I had more anti-squat I wouldn't be so tired", it's usually something like "I shouldn't have had all that beer last night."

When the enduro 29 came out I convinced myself that would be my next bike but the more I thought about it the more I realized 160mm of travel is overkill for 95% of my riding. I remember saying to a riding buddy, "I wish someone would create a 120mm version of the enduro." So the 111 is the closest thing and the frame price was well within my budget so I had my LBS order it for me. Like I said, I don't know much about suspension designs so that wasn't a deal breaker, I'm not even sure if anti-squat is a good thing or a bad thing...

 

[jackalope]

So while I think Spesh deserves technical credit for packaging 6" of rear travel into a 29r format, one could argue that they solved a non-existent problem. There seems to be plenty of solid 5" (or less) 29r models out there, and I've been told that wagon wheels make up for less travel due to the unstoppable rollover technologies. FWIW, I've seen one up close, and I swear the front end of that bike was as tall or taller than my DH bike. It looked absolutely towering, and not at all what I personally would want in an all-rounder. The guy riding it was a highly skilled rider (I mean *highly, highly* skilled) and pretty tall, so I think the monster proportions kinda worked with his body dimensions, but oddly, he wished the back end was longer so it was more stable at speed (i.e. they tried hard to make it handle like a 26r, but by doing so, they apparently gave away some of the innate benefit of a longer wheelbase). Just one anecdotal impression, so handful of salt over the shoulder. If you're a bigger guy and really love how 29rs ride, go for it - even though it will detract mightily from your "clapped out, old stuff still works" rep

 

[Sandwich]

So the best thing to do would be to read this like three or four times. http://www.i-tracksuspension.com/suspensiontheory.html If you don't have a napping baby, that might be a challenge, and I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to explain, but condensed, 100% AS resists your fat chunks on the pedals. 0% bobs unaffected. 150% digs in and theoretically propels your muffin top up into space. -50% actually brings the rear wheel up, and ruins your day. Generally, most people think of 100% as being ideal, but my current bike sits at about 125% or so and has excellent acceleration response, and shoves to over 200% in the granny gear, which really only works for climbs. The Kona 111 sits at ~40% antisquat, according to linkage. The derpo does ~100-75% linearly with a 32t chainring.

For reference, the more modern DW links, and most of the split pivot bikes, hover around 120-140%. The evil uprising is about 130% linearly, the Ripley has DW's fun curve and goes from almost 200-130% off the top into sag. I'm finally beginning to understand why his bikes are so well received, among other reasons...so many other manufacturers set the bar extremely low!

 

[Sandwich]

more importantly, and sorry to get overly technical, but the while spec checks so many boxes, I too wish it hovered a bit closer to 140mm. I'm fine with stays up to 17.2, but I think as you get beyond that, you get sluggish handling no matter the wheelsize.

I'm pretty impressed with bike mag's review of the camber 29 evo carbon turbo edition. They seemed to love that thing, and it's pretty similar to the enduro, but with longer stays and shorter (120mm) travel. Definitely peaked my interest...but the enduro is so light and the geometry is so good that I think I'd put up with the extra travel with a little more air pressure to be able to drop it a little and play hard on the weekends.

 

[StiHacka]

Rumor has it a 650b Spesh Enderpo is going to be announced very soon.

 

[Sandwich]

can't understand why, but I see the tires they're making, and the writing is pretty much on the wall.

I hope that maybe they take the 29er theology the spluttered into the enderpo and put it into the SJ, camber, and epic, then make the 650b trenduro.

 

[yd35]

I wonder when all this big wheeled madness is gonna implode and go full retard in the other direction. Who's gonna make the first 24" mountain bike? "It's slower in the rough stuff but it steers like a champ!"

 

[Sandwich]

I remember reading an article in the late 90s/early 2000s about how somebody had put 24s on an intense Uzzi, jacked up the BB height, and was "totally stoked" on how it rode, citing faster acceleration and minimal slowdown in the whoopiedoos. I'll have to dig it up, just for old good times. I rode a 24" DH bike for a while, back when, and really enjoyed the lower BB on my monster bike, stiffer wheels, added "flickability", and massive tire selection that was given away for free by people abandoning 24s. I hated everything else about them.

I don't really want to get into a debate, I believe the proof is in the pudding, especially behind urn gwirn and mitch whipawholelotto, and having actually ridden big wheeled bikes.

 

[slyfink]

So the best thing to do would be to read this like three or four times. http://www.i-tracksuspension.com/suspensiontheory.html If you don't have a napping baby, that might be a challenge, and I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to explain, but condensed, 100% AS resists your fat chunks on the pedals. 0% bobs unaffected. 150% digs in and theoretically propels your muffin top up into space. -50% actually brings the rear wheel up, and ruins your day. Generally, most people think of 100% as being ideal, but my current bike sits at about 125% or so and has excellent acceleration response, and shoves to over 200% in the granny gear, which really only works for climbs. The Kona 111 sits at ~40% antisquat, according to linkage. The derpo does ~100-75% linearly with a 32t chainring.

For reference, the more modern DW links, and most of the split pivot bikes, hover around 120-140%. The evil uprising is about 130% linearly, the Ripley has DW's fun curve and goes from almost 200-130% off the top into sag. I'm finally beginning to understand why his bikes are so well received, among other reasons...so many other manufacturers set the bar extremely low!

more importantly, and sorry to get overly technical, but the while spec checks so many boxes, I too wish it hovered a bit closer to 140mm. I'm fine with stays up to 17.2, but I think as you get beyond that, you get sluggish handling no matter the wheelsize.

I'm pretty impressed with bike mag's review of the camber 29 evo carbon turbo edition. They seemed to love that thing, and it's pretty similar to the enduro, but with longer stays and shorter (120mm) travel. Definitely peaked my interest...but the enduro is so light and the geometry is so good that I think I'd put up with the extra travel with a little more air pressure to be able to drop it a little and play hard on the weekends.

where's the Stumpy fit in on your anti-squat scale? and the Norco Sight and Range? Sounds to me like you are describing the Stumpy EVO 29 in your lists of wants and needs. The only thing I remember off the top of my head about the Dirt article is that they say the Enduro isn't quite as good as the "game changing" Stumpy EVO...

 

[Sandwich]

The stumprider should be about the same as the endurpo, just shorter travel. The problem that _I_ have with it is the length of the stays. At 17.5", you're getting into too long territory, for my needs.

The norco st.range are unobtanium, sadly. Local dealer basically told me he'll never get his hands on a carbon range, that a customer is actually driving from boston to north Carolina in order to pick up a limited model. The only model I might actually be able to buy is the alloy sight, which I wouldn't mind, but the builds on both of those are dreadful.

I like dirt mag, but after reading their comments on the yt camaro, I'm a little disappointed. Technically, it's a pretty vanilla bike. I know that Linkage software isn't gospel, but the kinematics of the suspension are pretty far behind the stuff that DW churns out, which honestly deserves the praise it gets.

 

[OGRipper]

650b? Generally an excuse for manufacturers that didn't come out with 29" fast enough, or couldn't get creative enough with big wheels.

Just in case no one else tells you, this is crazy talk.

 

[vikingboy]

Review available in ipad app for a few quid if you can't get paper mag. Drop me a pm I could help you with a scan too.

 

[Sandwich]

Just in case no one else tells you, this is crazy talk.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

 

[Jm_]

I like to compare my E29 to my old 6pack/RFX. The travel is almost exactly the same.

The E29 does just about everything better, especially climbing. Sure, ride with guys on more efficient 29er bikes and you'll notice the E29 isn't the best pedaling bike, but it's miles ahead of a 26er uphill and going downhill it still whips back and forth like crazy. It's lighter and more capable than my old Turners were, better at the DH resort. I really liked the RFX and 6 Pack, but this is a no-brainer.

 

[Sandro]

New Giant Trance? Plenty of anti squat, great geometry although a little long in the chainstay department. If i lived in North America i'd be all over the Banshee Spitfire myself.

 

[-C-]

Is the hub thing an issue? I built up some carbon rims for my Enduro, and used some old DT Swiss 240 hubs. Pulled the end caps off the Roval wheels, chucked them on the DT's & all is fine

The Rovals fit DT end caps, so they now live on my HT instead.

The shock mount, I don't really see as a problem, you can get Fox to (if you ask them very nicely) modify any air shock in the range to fit it. I run a Float X on mine. SRAM can modify some of theirs too, if you know where to ask.

I'm really impressed with the bike though. Other than pure XC, I use it for everything. Raced DH on it last weekend, will race the dirty E word on it this year and a load of other DH races, along with general riding. It climbs an awful lot better with the Float X on it, as the climb mode is super firm.