[webmonkey365]

Twenty-niners are poised to dominate the mountain bike world and they're not alone: middle-child 650B is rolling in right behind. Is this the end of the 26-inch wheel? Not quite, but change is coming faster than you might think.

Exclusive: War of the Wheel Sizes

 

[k1creeker]

"And here’s the clincher: from a marketing angle, 650B is the best of both worlds—more momentum and better angle of attack than a 26er, yet lighter and stronger than a 29er. "

or to put it another way...

And here’s the clincher: from a marketing angle, 650B is the worst of both worlds—less momentum and lower angle of attack than a 29er, yet heavier and weaker than a 26er.

I find it amusing that the same industry that lives and dies by faux standards (e.g. 15mm axles) is bemoaning the increasing popularity of the 650b wheel size. They're the ones who come up with this sh!t in the first place.

 

[jonKranked]

here's the truth of the matter: all of this stems from import taxes.

 

[Casey-Ryan]

I feel like this is just attack on the used market. They have been building bomb proof 26ers and now they are trying to convince everyone that the 29er and 650b are the only way not just a variation in riding performance or looked as just alternatives. An example would be that it's ok to own a muscle car, a off roading truck and a super car because they all offer different experiences on trail to trail bases. However having the general public thinking that it is one way or the highway is what has cause uproars in media, forums and general conversation about this hoax of a debate about "Wheel Size Wars"

 

[Sandwich]

Eh, here's what happened:

People started messing around with 29" wheels on their XC bikes, which seemed faster in every condition aside from pinkbike and the DH forum.

Then people started trying to put them on their long travel trail bikes, because they were so much better on hardtails and short travel bikes. It didn't work well.

In the meantime, some east coasters got the idea that they could get some of the benefits of big wheels without having a slower handling bike, which is what the trails on the east coast are, so they put together a wheel that would fit inside of their old hardtails, which was a 650b.

People who rode longer travel bikes who couldn't get good handling with 29ers, switched to 650b wheels because they worked better in most conditions but still allowed their bikes to handle well. Manufacturers got the notion and bought in hard, because they missed out on the 29er gold rush.

Now, pinkbikers still hate anything to do with wheel size until Sam hill is running one, you can buy fantastic 650b bikes in 4-8" of travel, and 29ers are still great for XC riding.

 

[daisycutter]

Amazing to see race face is not offering their new wheel set in a 26 inch size.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/First-Look-Race-Face-2014-Next-SL-Cranks-and-Turbine-Wheelset.html

 

[Jm_]

Had an awesome time downhillinig my enduro 29er yesterday at the ski resort. At the bottom of the runs I was thinking about how much fun it was and how I wasn't fighting the bike at all, as I've done on different bikes. I don't think I'd want to take any other 29er on the same stuff, but this bike was fun and very capable, whether it's jumps, drops, etc. Bike confuses the heck out of the lifties every time they take it off the chair.

 

[jonKranked]

Eh, here's what happened:

People started messing around with 29" wheels on their XC bikes, which seemed faster in every condition aside from pinkbike and the DH forum.

Then people started trying to put them on their long travel trail bikes, because they were so much better on hardtails and short travel bikes. It didn't work well.

In the meantime, some east coasters got the idea that they could get some of the benefits of big wheels without having a slower handling bike, which is what the trails on the east coast are, so they put together a wheel that would fit inside of their old hardtails, which was a 650b.

People who rode longer travel bikes who couldn't get good handling with 29ers, switched to 650b wheels because they worked better in most conditions but still allowed their bikes to handle well. Manufacturers got the notion and bought in hard, because they missed out on the 29er gold rush.

Now, pinkbikers still hate anything to do with wheel size until Sam hill is running one, you can buy fantastic 650b bikes in 4-8" of travel, and 29ers are still great for XC riding.

benefits (actual or not) had nothing to do with it outside of boutique builders and you know that.

 

[Sandwich]

benefits (actual or not) had nothing to do with it outside of boutique builders and you know that.

what?

 

[jonKranked]

see post #3.

 

[Sandwich]

i don't know what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're trying to say that the boutique builders that started the trend (both 29ers and 650b) are benefiting from reduced import taxes....which you say all the time...but lower import duty wouldn't affect boutique builders.

The reason 650b suddenly blossomed is that companies that were left derping around when 29ers took off, like norco, rocky mountain, hutchinson, etc., saw an emerging market to capitalize on, and didn't want to miss out.

Kirk Pacenti has been screwing around with 650b since like 2008, back when 29ers were first catching on, at least.

now, Giant on the other hand, I can understand. For them, shipping 60 kagillion bikes at $0.35 cheaper a bike, actually could add up to something...but it would be far outweighed by tooling costs and etc. to actually capitalize on it.

but yeah, it's definitely import duty that's driving the market.

 

[jonKranked]

i don't know what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're trying to say that the boutique builders that started the trend (both 29ers and 650b) are benefiting from reduced import taxes....which you say all the time...but lower import duty wouldn't affect boutique builders.

The reason 650b suddenly blossomed is that companies that were left derping around when 29ers took off, like norco, rocky mountain, hutchinson, etc., saw an emerging market to capitalize on, and didn't want to miss out.

Kirk Pacenti has been screwing around with 650b since like 2008, back when 29ers were first catching on, at least.

now, Giant on the other hand, I can understand. For them, shipping 60 kagillion bikes at $0.35 cheaper a bike, actually could add up to something...but it would be far outweighed by tooling costs and etc. to actually capitalize on it.

but yeah, it's definitely import duty that's driving the market.

yes, boutique builders started it. the trend would never have caught on unless they found a way to make it more financially viable - which they did.

650b had nothing to do with mid-size companies being caught with their pants down. 650b "suddenly blossomed" as you put it because not all riders got on board with 29'ers, it was an existing "standard", conveniently fell squarely in between the two wheel sizes , and most importantly it fell into the lower tax rate.

and no, boutique builders don't benefit from the import tax loophole (if they are building domestically, obviously), but they do benefit from riding the coattails of the 29'er marketing from the big companies - even though boutique builders were the ones derping around with the wheel size from the beginning.

new wheel sizes wasn't a response to rider demand; it was cost reduction on behalf of the main importers of bikes to the US.

 

[jonKranked]

i don't know what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're trying to say that the boutique builders that started the trend (both 29ers and 650b) are benefiting from reduced import taxes....which you say all the time...but lower import duty wouldn't affect boutique builders.

The reason 650b suddenly blossomed is that companies that were left derping around when 29ers took off, like norco, rocky mountain, hutchinson, etc., saw an emerging market to capitalize on, and didn't want to miss out.

Kirk Pacenti has been screwing around with 650b since like 2008, back when 29ers were first catching on, at least.

now, Giant on the other hand, I can understand. For them, shipping 60 kagillion bikes at $0.35 cheaper a bike, actually could add up to something...but it would be far outweighed by tooling costs and etc. to actually capitalize on it.

but yeah, it's definitely import duty that's driving the market.

also, you realize the savings add up to millions of dollars per year right? not some 35 cents figure you pulled out your backside. tax rate drops from 11% to 5.5%.

let's say a company imports a bike to the US. MSRP is let's say, $1000. Dealer cost is a little lower than that, and the bike company claims the import value at $250. so the difference in tax rates saves them $13.75 / unit. SO if they import 20,000 bikes, they're saving about a quarter of a million dollars on import taxes.

the numbers in that example are EXTREMELY conservative, and after a couple years will more than offset tooling costs.

 

[Sandwich]

650b had nothing to do with mid-size companies being caught with their pants down. 650b "suddenly blossomed" as you put it because not all riders got on board with 29'ers, it was an existing "standard", conveniently fell squarely in between the two wheel sizes , and most importantly it fell into the lower tax rate.

No, it really did. 650b has existed for a while. There's no reason for it to exist (an outdated french wheel size?) except that Pacenti decided to keep on keeping on with it. We disagree about why 650b initially grew, but I honestly believe it was from people converting their old bikes with 650b wheels, which worked. The more creative tire manufacturers got on board, even if their tires suck, and the only person making rims was pacenti/velocity.

Now manufacturers are seeing that people also want bikes that aren't 29ers, and they're hopping on board hand over fist. If tax rate is so important, why isn't specialized, perhaps the largest US brand, pushing 650b wheels on us? They stand to gain the most, shy of giant. Why haven't all 26" wheels been kicked to the curb? It would make sense for a company that also imports crappy dentist's bikes. The import tax loophole just doesn't make sense.

new wheel sizes wasn't a response to rider demand; it was cost reduction on behalf of the main importers of bikes to the US.

Not really. It was in your conspiracy theory world, but in reality, a lot of riders didn't want 29ers, but they bought into the hype. Hell, to this day the only 29er bike you can buy with sub 17" chainstays and 5+ inches of travel is the enderpo 29, and that one is selling like hotcakes, despite your hatred for them.

Norco et al have seen a way to actually cater to people who want to try something different. it's that simple.

 

[Sandwich]

also, you realize the savings add up to millions of dollars per year right? not some 35 cents figure you pulled out your backside. tax rate drops from 11% to 5.5%.

let's say a company imports a bike to the US. MSRP is let's say, $1000. Dealer cost is a little lower than that, and the bike company claims the import value at $250. so the difference in tax rates saves them $13.75 / unit. SO if they import 20,000 bikes, they're saving about a quarter of a million dollars on import taxes.

the numbers in that example are EXTREMELY conservative, and after a couple years will more than offset tooling costs.

when i actually read that paper you sent me, the difference was more like 6.5% to 5.5%, a negligible difference for all but the biggest of importers.

 

[jonKranked]

when i actually read that paper you sent me, the difference was more like 6.5% to 5.5%, a negligible difference for all but the biggest of importers.

dunno where you got 6.5%, but it's definitely 11%.

 

[jonKranked]

HTS chapter 87 section 12 if you wanna check it again.

 

[Sandwich]

Bicycles having both wheels not exceeding 63.5 cm
in diameter. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%

Bicycles having both wheels exceeding 63.5 cm
in diameter:
8712.00.25 00 If weighing less than 16.3 kg complete without
accessories and not designed for use with tires
having a cross-sectional diameter exceeding
4.13 cm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No.. . . . . . 5.5%
Other. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No.. . . . . . 11%

So if you have a bike that weighs less than 33lb designed for use with tires less than 1.6", you pay a lower tarriff. For 26", 29", or any other bikes for use with tires greater than 1.62" width, you pay 11%

Where's the discount?

 

[jonKranked]

16.3kg = 35.9 lbs. everything but DH bikes are easily below this.

part of the loophole lies in the definition of "wheel", which does not include tire. you are going on tire diameter, not wheel diameter. wheels for 26" bikes are below the 63.5cm cutoff.

the other part of the loophole lies in the poor wording of the cross sectional area. is that inflated or not inflated? (note: bikes aren't shipped from the manufacturer with the tires inflated).

 

[Sandwich]

16.3kg = 35.9 lbs. everything but DH bikes are easily below this.

part of the loophole lies in the definition of "wheel", which does not include tire. you are going on tire diameter, not wheel diameter. wheels for 26" bikes are below the 63.5cm cutoff.

the other part of the loophole lies in the poor wording of the cross sectional area. is that inflated or not inflated? (note: bikes aren't shipped from the manufacturer with the tires inflated).

do you know the answers to these questions? it's quite difficult to base a conspiracy theory on something that's relatively easily answerable. "Designed for use with tire..." implies to me that nobody designs a bike for use with uninflated tires. So I guess the tin foil hat stuff hinges solely on whether customs designates uninflated tires as road bike tires?

 

[jonKranked]

do you know the answers to these questions? it's quite difficult to base a conspiracy theory on something that's relatively easily answerable. "Designed for use with tire..." implies to me that nobody designs a bike for use with uninflated tires. So I guess the tin foil hat stuff hinges solely on whether customs designates uninflated tires as road bike tires?

you're assuming customs is highly competent and experts on bicycles.

 

[rideit]

Well, 26" only originally became the 'standard' due to the lower import duties on 'children's wheels', for whatever this important historical interjection is worth.

 

[demo9pro]

Can't believe how much time I wasted reading through this post for something interestng or useful

 

[Leppah]

^^^I'm with this guy.
That being said, i've got three mountain bikes with three different wheel sizes. Dh has 26", AM bike has the 27.5", and commuter/urban/XC has 29". Haven't tried the 27.5" just yet. I just converted an old bike over. I'm hoping to get out to try it maybe tomorrow in some hardpacked snow.

 

[Sandwich]