Found this little review / constructive critisim from former World Champion, Greg "H-Ball" Herbold
http://mbword.mountainbike.com/2007/06/easy_rider.html
http://mbword.mountainbike.com/2007/06/easy_rider.html
Former World Champ Chimes in on Diablo
- Thread starter teamkranzelbike
- Start date
I agree, it can be a bit intimidating trying to bring people who are not as versed in Downhill or Freeriding, to the mountain. It simply lacks the trail system and subsystems to support the beginners. Whistler can accomadate all skill levels, granted they have been around a little longer and have more revenue in which to do this. But a start in the right direction could not hurt.
...the 2 main points I agree with from that article would be the inclusion of some more beginner trails and more trail signs/markers that are bigger and easy to spot through the foliage.
Any place where one trail crosses another would be a good place to start putting up new signs.
Any place where one trail crosses another would be a good place to start putting up new signs.
EVERYONE, and i mean EVERYONE, signs a waiver at the beginning of the day.
This is not a, "hey lets get on our bikes and ride" sport, this is a dangerous sport, people break sh!t, get hurt etc.... it happens.... it's no worse then crossing a NYC street @ rush hour...
I took several guys with me last year and they got hurt, and will never go back, it's because they saw the pics and vids and said "hey that looks easy".... and it isn't...
Example....
I thought dirt jumps were easy, i said "Sh!t, i do the tables at Diablo with my DH and it weighs 45 pounds, imagine what i can do with a 24lb bike".... that was not the case, @ some easy dirt jumps i almost died, ended up walking with a cane for a few weeks (Heel Spur) cracked upper Fibula, and a hurt ego"... maybe i should bitch and say "they should make easy jumps blah blah blah", but that's not the case....
When i started DH'ing last year (haven't been on a bike in about 10 years before that) i did all the blue trails over and over and over until i built those skills to go through harder stuff...
What i'm trying to say is that this sport is not for just anyone.
1. Not everyone can afford a 2,500.00 bike (my frame alone cost 2,400.00)
2. Takes Cojones (balls) to do this **** once, let alone come back every weekend to do it!
3. Ride with less experienced people, i do this all the time, sometimes i get up @ the mountain and i ride with someone who's never been there and i'll show him around the ropes etc...(i'm not the best riders, but i know all the DIABLO trails by heart!)
Better trails marking for merging trails, is all that i think is needed @ DIABLO!
Beginner trails are.... OTB/Flatliner/Upper breakout (of which i love), you can by pass Lower Breakout but it is an easy trail/Damboo, lower alpine/sram berm, then you can fire road it straight down...
Sorry for Ranting, it's that time of week again, u know when you just wanna ride and do nothing else... lol
This is not a, "hey lets get on our bikes and ride" sport, this is a dangerous sport, people break sh!t, get hurt etc.... it happens.... it's no worse then crossing a NYC street @ rush hour...
I took several guys with me last year and they got hurt, and will never go back, it's because they saw the pics and vids and said "hey that looks easy".... and it isn't...
Example....
I thought dirt jumps were easy, i said "Sh!t, i do the tables at Diablo with my DH and it weighs 45 pounds, imagine what i can do with a 24lb bike".... that was not the case, @ some easy dirt jumps i almost died, ended up walking with a cane for a few weeks (Heel Spur) cracked upper Fibula, and a hurt ego"... maybe i should bitch and say "they should make easy jumps blah blah blah", but that's not the case....
When i started DH'ing last year (haven't been on a bike in about 10 years before that) i did all the blue trails over and over and over until i built those skills to go through harder stuff...
What i'm trying to say is that this sport is not for just anyone.
1. Not everyone can afford a 2,500.00 bike (my frame alone cost 2,400.00)
2. Takes Cojones (balls) to do this **** once, let alone come back every weekend to do it!
3. Ride with less experienced people, i do this all the time, sometimes i get up @ the mountain and i ride with someone who's never been there and i'll show him around the ropes etc...(i'm not the best riders, but i know all the DIABLO trails by heart!)
Better trails marking for merging trails, is all that i think is needed @ DIABLO!
Beginner trails are.... OTB/Flatliner/Upper breakout (of which i love), you can by pass Lower Breakout but it is an easy trail/Damboo, lower alpine/sram berm, then you can fire road it straight down...
Sorry for Ranting, it's that time of week again, u know when you just wanna ride and do nothing else... lol
We need those beginners getting into the sport. They inject alot of money into the industry and the benefits are reaped by everyone. Having some more designated beginner trails would encourage those people to come out and try it. If they get better they become long term customers and riders. It can be alittle discouraging for a beginner to come out and ride those more technical trails, but if they new for the same price of a lift pass as the expert rider that they would still have a plethora of trails to chose from, it may help. Lets face it too, we have alot of riders that never work there way up to riding double black diamonds, but still love to ride and still come and support the venue.
indeed, but the reality of it is that this is not a regular sport, it's a sport that takes practice, time and effort, if people are looking for a quick FIX, then maybe they should go XC'ing and not Dh'ing....
I support this sport 1000%, i stop buying regular clothes and i buy Bicycle Company Clothes now(Fox/Lotek/Sinister T's/Diablo Shirts/Troy Lee jeans and shirts etc)
There should be a Beginner Clinic @ Diablo maybe...
I support this sport 1000%, i stop buying regular clothes and i buy Bicycle Company Clothes now(Fox/Lotek/Sinister T's/Diablo Shirts/Troy Lee jeans and shirts etc)
There should be a Beginner Clinic @ Diablo maybe...
Shut up & ride, H-Ball!!
*sarcasm*
*sarcasm*
First, thank you to all for engaging in this discussion and providing your opinion.
Second, while the "article" does have some valid points, its written in a demeaning manor and is full of exagerations. Why are places like Diablo, Pkill, Highland even Whistler such easy targets for whats "wrong with the sport" when there are nearly 500 resorts in North America and only a handful of us actual support the sport and reinvest? Where's the mention in this article about the resorts that have cancelled their programs? Or the resorts that already run their lifts in the summer but refuse downhill rigs? Or the resorts that simply don't allow biking?
We agree that Diablo needs more trails. More beginner trails, more expert trails, more more more.. The program has grown tremendously since 2003 and we've developed, expanded and redeveloped upon the trail network that was originally started by Mountain Creek Resort. I feel its important to note that we agree that Diablo needs more beginner type trails, however, as you all should know the natural terrain at Diablo is very technical and blazing top-to-bottom trails that are smooth, mellow in pitch and beginner friendly is an extremely difficult task and not as easy as you think. Do you really think we would blatantly ignore this clientele?
Also, we feel that DH parks should NOT be the place to FIRST introduce someone to mountain biking. This should be done at state parks, rail trails and other less aggressive environments. Marketing towards and Introducing beginners to DH parks may yeild more short-term revenues, however, we feel that it would also yield more injuries, more confrontation, more scrutiny from insurance adjusters and more trail overcrowding. Aggressively pursueing beginner mountain bikers to attract them to DH/FR parks would be similar to purposely introducing beginner skiers/snowboarders to aggressive terrain parks in the winter months; not a recipe for smart growth. Even at Winter terrain parks, resorts do NOT encourage complete beginners to enter freestyle terrain.. So why is the summer any different?
While this was a good read with some insight the article was very Mountain Bike Action-esque. Snowboard biking?
"cool names with small boring signs are not working because even the locals do not know the names "....
Really, as Diablo locals, do you guys not know the names of our trails? I find it hard to believe.
"OK I admit it, I enjoyed the rough rocky chewed trails, but I am 45 years old, how much longer can I keep "sending it" realistically? Give me some smooth, flowy, mini jump trails and you will see me there when I am 60"
Tempest, Upper Dominion, Lower Dominion, Alpine, Upper Breakout, Domboo
Second, while the "article" does have some valid points, its written in a demeaning manor and is full of exagerations. Why are places like Diablo, Pkill, Highland even Whistler such easy targets for whats "wrong with the sport" when there are nearly 500 resorts in North America and only a handful of us actual support the sport and reinvest? Where's the mention in this article about the resorts that have cancelled their programs? Or the resorts that already run their lifts in the summer but refuse downhill rigs? Or the resorts that simply don't allow biking?
We agree that Diablo needs more trails. More beginner trails, more expert trails, more more more.. The program has grown tremendously since 2003 and we've developed, expanded and redeveloped upon the trail network that was originally started by Mountain Creek Resort. I feel its important to note that we agree that Diablo needs more beginner type trails, however, as you all should know the natural terrain at Diablo is very technical and blazing top-to-bottom trails that are smooth, mellow in pitch and beginner friendly is an extremely difficult task and not as easy as you think. Do you really think we would blatantly ignore this clientele?
Also, we feel that DH parks should NOT be the place to FIRST introduce someone to mountain biking. This should be done at state parks, rail trails and other less aggressive environments. Marketing towards and Introducing beginners to DH parks may yeild more short-term revenues, however, we feel that it would also yield more injuries, more confrontation, more scrutiny from insurance adjusters and more trail overcrowding. Aggressively pursueing beginner mountain bikers to attract them to DH/FR parks would be similar to purposely introducing beginner skiers/snowboarders to aggressive terrain parks in the winter months; not a recipe for smart growth. Even at Winter terrain parks, resorts do NOT encourage complete beginners to enter freestyle terrain.. So why is the summer any different?
While this was a good read with some insight the article was very Mountain Bike Action-esque. Snowboard biking?
"cool names with small boring signs are not working because even the locals do not know the names "....
Really, as Diablo locals, do you guys not know the names of our trails? I find it hard to believe.
"OK I admit it, I enjoyed the rough rocky chewed trails, but I am 45 years old, how much longer can I keep "sending it" realistically? Give me some smooth, flowy, mini jump trails and you will see me there when I am 60"
Tempest, Upper Dominion, Lower Dominion, Alpine, Upper Breakout, Domboo
Herbold said it best himself in the editorial: "Waaaah."
I think the next intermediate trail should be named "Domain." Excellent product placement for H-ball's employer!
I think what H-Ball really fails to realize is that Diablo is simply one mountain that offers up thier own flavor of DH'ing. Whenever I get into a conversation like this regarding the current state and future of the sport I find it helpful to compare to our winter-counterparts in the ski/snowboard industry. Granted the availible venues for winter are far more widespread than what is currently offered with DH'ing, there are several similarities. For instance, I would NEVER go to a place like let's say Whiteface and then bitch and moan that the trails are too advanced. Why? Because I KNOW Whiteface is known for it's long, steep pitches. On the other hand, I would never go to a place like Butternut and complain about the trails being too mellow because, again, that's what they are KNOWN for.
When it comes to Diablo, it's known far and wide as a very technical, rock, true east-coast style DH resort. Then there's Platty, a very steep, fast, old-school DH resort. Again, every mountain has it's own flavor of ANY sport taking place on it's slopes. Now, understandably DH'ing currently has much fewer (if any) places that are considered "beginner" resorts, but they can be found. Take Hunter Mountain for instance. This place really has the potential for some deadly DH runs, but instead they've decided to take things a bit easier and appeal to the family & beginner segment of the sport.
Hell, even Iron Horse is helping them out. Why? Because I think they see the potential exists for resorts that specialize in more entry, beginner and intermediate terrain. If anything I think what H-Ball's rant truly exposes is not a need for change by the mountains, but a need for change by the riders.
While I truly appreciate what Shawn and the Diablo guys have given us, I also appreciate what Lazlo, Downhill Mike, the Jiminy Crew, Hunter Mtn, and the places like Gore & West who tried hard to keep the sport growing have given us. What I really think needs to happen is for all the riders to start becoming patrons at other areas more frequently. I know for many Diablo, Platty and Jiminy are convenient local stops, but in order for the sport to flourish and for more riders to get into it, we all need to branch out.
Think about it, if you were a parent of some kid taking the sky ride at a place like Jiminy and you saw 5-10 people DH'ing the whole day, what would you think of the sport? You'd probably think "wow these guys are absolutely NUTS!! Hell, on an entire mountain there's only 5-10 people even foolish enough to try something like that". Now that parent is likely to not encourage that child to engage in the sport if they are interested, and they probably won't try it themselves. On the other hand, take the same situation but with many more riders involved. You'd probably still think all the DH'ers were a bit nutty, but since there were so many, the likelyhood that you'd be interested in giving it a shot would increase.
Well, my rant has gotten to be a bit lengthy so i'll try and end it here. My point is just that perhaps H-Ball had a point in that we should encourage the growth of the sport, however we should do it in the same way that has worked for other mountain sports like skiing & boarding. DH'ing is definatley becoming a more affordable sport (Yakuza's go from between $600-1100 on closeout), and considering that's just as much as anyone would drop on a halfway decent set of skis or a board, people will be inclined to start giving the sport a shot. What we need now is for the riders to start spreading the word about the sport, and show everyone that while it may be a dangerous sport, it can also be incredibly fun and worthwhile.
-Stef
When it comes to Diablo, it's known far and wide as a very technical, rock, true east-coast style DH resort. Then there's Platty, a very steep, fast, old-school DH resort. Again, every mountain has it's own flavor of ANY sport taking place on it's slopes. Now, understandably DH'ing currently has much fewer (if any) places that are considered "beginner" resorts, but they can be found. Take Hunter Mountain for instance. This place really has the potential for some deadly DH runs, but instead they've decided to take things a bit easier and appeal to the family & beginner segment of the sport.
Hell, even Iron Horse is helping them out. Why? Because I think they see the potential exists for resorts that specialize in more entry, beginner and intermediate terrain. If anything I think what H-Ball's rant truly exposes is not a need for change by the mountains, but a need for change by the riders.
While I truly appreciate what Shawn and the Diablo guys have given us, I also appreciate what Lazlo, Downhill Mike, the Jiminy Crew, Hunter Mtn, and the places like Gore & West who tried hard to keep the sport growing have given us. What I really think needs to happen is for all the riders to start becoming patrons at other areas more frequently. I know for many Diablo, Platty and Jiminy are convenient local stops, but in order for the sport to flourish and for more riders to get into it, we all need to branch out.
Think about it, if you were a parent of some kid taking the sky ride at a place like Jiminy and you saw 5-10 people DH'ing the whole day, what would you think of the sport? You'd probably think "wow these guys are absolutely NUTS!! Hell, on an entire mountain there's only 5-10 people even foolish enough to try something like that". Now that parent is likely to not encourage that child to engage in the sport if they are interested, and they probably won't try it themselves. On the other hand, take the same situation but with many more riders involved. You'd probably still think all the DH'ers were a bit nutty, but since there were so many, the likelyhood that you'd be interested in giving it a shot would increase.
Well, my rant has gotten to be a bit lengthy so i'll try and end it here. My point is just that perhaps H-Ball had a point in that we should encourage the growth of the sport, however we should do it in the same way that has worked for other mountain sports like skiing & boarding. DH'ing is definatley becoming a more affordable sport (Yakuza's go from between $600-1100 on closeout), and considering that's just as much as anyone would drop on a halfway decent set of skis or a board, people will be inclined to start giving the sport a shot. What we need now is for the riders to start spreading the word about the sport, and show everyone that while it may be a dangerous sport, it can also be incredibly fun and worthwhile.
-Stef
Greg has always needed attention, which worked well for him during his career. But like a washed-up model of decades past, he still needs some spotlight and has to feel his opinions are heard.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, because albeit I want to be wrong about Greg, but when I knew him in the 90's, he was very busy making money. Maybe too busy to give back to the sport then. Him and few other big names were giants in the sport, but I never saw them use their influence to put on fee camps or give back to beginners. It was as if anything they couldn't use to market themselves or cost them money was a waste of time. But they bought some nice ranches in Colorado.
Now all my fellow old-guys wonder why the sport hasn't grown. Obviously it's the fault of the mountains because lord knows downhillers of the past have down all they could.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, because albeit I want to be wrong about Greg, but when I knew him in the 90's, he was very busy making money. Maybe too busy to give back to the sport then. Him and few other big names were giants in the sport, but I never saw them use their influence to put on fee camps or give back to beginners. It was as if anything they couldn't use to market themselves or cost them money was a waste of time. But they bought some nice ranches in Colorado.
Now all my fellow old-guys wonder why the sport hasn't grown. Obviously it's the fault of the mountains because lord knows downhillers of the past have down all they could.
honestly there is plenty of beginer trails on the mountain. all the squares are doable on a bmx bike. if u cant handle it then dont. u cant make a mountain smooth. now the stairs, those are another story....
I definitely agree with what Shawn was saying - the article did take some potshots at Diablo. After reading what you had to say about the Beginner trails, I totally agree with you on all of your points, so I understand. Ignoring some of H-balls tone, and other silly comments to the effect of "the trail signs aren't flashy enough" I think that trail crossings could use a bit more signs to let everyone know where they are.
For example Tempest and another trail run into the Domination #1 course, so at a certain point it can get a bit confusing as to where you are going if unfamiliar with that part of the mountain. There is also a point on the trail that takes you toward the "Road to Nowhere" where the trail splits (not sure if its before or after the go-around for the drop, but basically what I'm talking about doesn't include going off the drop) - you can go straight or left down the fall line. It would be cool to have trail splits like this clearly marked, you know?
Shawn - I know EXACTLY how you feel after reading that - I can't get into it here on the forum, but I was feeling the same vibe.
For example Tempest and another trail run into the Domination #1 course, so at a certain point it can get a bit confusing as to where you are going if unfamiliar with that part of the mountain. There is also a point on the trail that takes you toward the "Road to Nowhere" where the trail splits (not sure if its before or after the go-around for the drop, but basically what I'm talking about doesn't include going off the drop) - you can go straight or left down the fall line. It would be cool to have trail splits like this clearly marked, you know?
Shawn - I know EXACTLY how you feel after reading that - I can't get into it here on the forum, but I was feeling the same vibe.
get off the forums blogs emails and ride a bike
Oh yeah I forgot to mention, all my posts are done as I ride.....yes I am that badass.
-Stef
P.S. - I'm going to shutup and go ride now.....even though it's dark.
wow you guys are harsh. it was just an opinion.
well put, diablo is doing a lot to progress our sport. some old guy bitching does nothing
We brought 3 guys with us to diablo this past saturday who have never been to a DH/FR park. They all took their lumps and fell a few times, but they basically did everything in the park (but the drops) on their 4" travel bikes and had a blast. They're hooked. We've been riding there for the past 4 years, and at the start of the day we were wondering what "beginner" trails we could point them towards to get started, but they just rode behind us and we let them know what was coming so they could decide on their own to hit it or not. Everything has a go-around, and you pretty much know 10 seconds into the big rock garden runs if you should keep going or turn around.
The point is, these guys have been riding steep XC downhills and rock gardens locally for years. They were able to have a good time at diablo because they're already good riders. IMO, how are you going get into DH by running up and down these bunny trails that people feel the park is missing? And how do the regular riders benefit from all these new people that need to be introduced to the sport and the revenue they generate? Diablo already has fast lifts and the most well-groomed mountain on the east coast. How else could the riders really benefit from this potential revenue aside from another massive block of hotels?
The point is, these guys have been riding steep XC downhills and rock gardens locally for years. They were able to have a good time at diablo because they're already good riders. IMO, how are you going get into DH by running up and down these bunny trails that people feel the park is missing? And how do the regular riders benefit from all these new people that need to be introduced to the sport and the revenue they generate? Diablo already has fast lifts and the most well-groomed mountain on the east coast. How else could the riders really benefit from this potential revenue aside from another massive block of hotels?
I like Diablo. A lot.
I put a tire on my down tube for that reason, a pad would be nice tho. Gball is an knucklehead. When I got into this sport 10 years ago one could say he could have been a deturent with his attitude. Is anything in this world perfect? They're trying.
damn if you care about scratching your dh bike that much hang it on the wall.
yeah, I think I should win the award for most scratch protection on my bike. All I need left to do is wrap my handlebars in vinyl too.
arent your handlebars still in the shrinkwrap?
i think there should be more trails in general. I dont care what the trail sign look like or how hard the trail are, everyone knows that the right side of the mountain has all the easy trails, you could ask any local unless your a socialy challenged, its not that hard to ask around. the trail crew works rediculously hard on alpine evey week to keep it in shape because it gets destroyed over the weekend. diablo is doing a good job. its only been a couple of years and they are building trails like tempest and upper breakout so begginers and riders that are too scared to use there exspensive suspenion for what its meant for. its only been like four years give them a break. This is east coast downhill. Even though diablo would like to attract more customers not only to them but the industry its hard to do what every rider wants thats why every mountain pretty much has there own style just like stef from down cycles said. I saw this guy that was riding. he was a fairy. He is the type of rider that probably hit otb all. The only thing i agree on is that there needs to be more trails. It doesnt mater how hard they are. as long as they are attracting more and more bikers. I think this guy should go back to riding crappy state park xc trails if he cant deal with it. YOU CANT HAVE EVERYTHING PAL!!!!!!
Think of it this way: On a busy day the ski resort can see 10,000 people in the winter. In the summer 500 is spectacular.
There is a gap there. Something could be done better. Stopping getting so offended and just listen. You want to drive a nice car and have a job in ten years? Then open your mind to differing opinions.
There is a gap there. Something could be done better. Stopping getting so offended and just listen. You want to drive a nice car and have a job in ten years? Then open your mind to differing opinions.
The problem is who we're forced to listen to. It's like having the retired CEO of EXXON tell us we need to build more refineries.
1. The Gap did not just appear, systems should have been put in place 12 years ago when the sport had real money and Herbold was at the top.
2. When Greg was at the top he did nothing for beginners or the sport for that matter, therefore his opinion is worthless to me.
3. The owners of Mountain Creek (Diablo in summer) actually closed mountain creek from '99 to around 2003. Shawn and few others took the PERSONAL risk to re-open it. Why couldn't a pro like Greg contract a mountain and make it ideal?? Surely it would be easier for a pro like Greg to do that with his contacts and corporate clout.
Maybe I'm too hard on Greg, he could just be experiencing menopause. My mom went through that and I still love her.
The only thing I really want from Diablo is for enough people to go there for them to justify building trails down Granite Peak and opening the lift there. 
you already have 2 of the 3
lol jkthe only thing that i think is valid in his write up was the part about putting some foam on the lip of the lift so not to scratch the frame,
but thats truly not a big deal 'cause you'll scratch your bike anyway.
but thats truly not a big deal 'cause you'll scratch your bike anyway.
at the age of 50.
i don't have much d.h. riding time left when compared to younger riders.
i don't have time to build beginer style trails, nor the desire to ride them.
that's why i came up to this mt. seven years ago, and started building what i want in a trailsystem.
my take is,
beginers want trails ??
get off your butts and start the task of getting land to build on.
then build. (or stick to x-c)
maybe h-ball should lead the way.
it's easy to criticise what others have built.
heck he built his own worlds course in durango for the 1990 worlds.
i rode it many times that years.
by todays standards, it was nothing more than a steep dirt sidewalk.
i don't have much d.h. riding time left when compared to younger riders.
i don't have time to build beginer style trails, nor the desire to ride them.
that's why i came up to this mt. seven years ago, and started building what i want in a trailsystem.
my take is,
beginers want trails ??
get off your butts and start the task of getting land to build on.
then build. (or stick to x-c)
maybe h-ball should lead the way.
it's easy to criticise what others have built.
heck he built his own worlds course in durango for the 1990 worlds.
i rode it many times that years.
by todays standards, it was nothing more than a steep dirt sidewalk.