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Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Udi, Sep 2, 2015.

  1. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Obviously they wouldn't use a fluid that was unsafe / inadequate, but the Magura fluid has a substantially lower boiling point than most brake fluids from the numbers I've seen (120*C / 248*F) and when questioned on the topic they provided very little data or useful information. I've heard that it's rebadged Castrol Vitamol V10 but haven't seen this actually confirmed by Magura so who knows.

    Either way, the Shimano fluid at least has the BP published (280*C / 536*F) and sufficiently low viscosity.

    Certainly no need to rush out and change it, I just prefer to have some numerical data on what I'm using.
     
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  2. Happymtb.fr

    Happymtb.fr Monkey

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  3. troy

    troy Monkey

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    That's probably why they do not allow running metallic pads in their brakes (they conduct too much heat to the fluid).

    Also, for the european monkeys - You can get some Bionol mineral oil made by Danico with very high boiling point (300*C/572*F). It has low viscosity and IIRC Trickstuff uses it in their brakes. FWIW it is biodegradable as it is based on sunflower oil.
     
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  4. Kurt_80

    Kurt_80 Chimp

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    I have the 810s. A regular bleed pretty much ensures consistent lever throw. As services intervals get longer, I can count on inconsistencies at least once a ride pretty much every ride. Given the power, and the fact I can minimise the risk with regular bleeds, it's something I'm willing to put up with.
     
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  5. marshalolson

    marshalolson Turbo Monkey

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    Imo- the only things to not like about m810 is the weight (and ergonomics if you have small hands). Great feel, great power, great control.

    Went back to them last year on my trail bike, have 3500mi and 500,000+ vert on them, and other than end-of season bleeds, basically flawless.

    Also been running EBC gold pads up front and red out back with great success.

    Hopefully that helps?
     
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  6. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    I really liked my 810s that I ran when I rode a lot. The throw was occasionally variable, but usually fixed with a good bleed. They were great brakes, not as powerful as some of the newer ones, but reliable, powerful, and fade free.
     
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  7. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Can I use it for cooking?
    Seems like good stuff, although no viscosity/VI data given. I emailed, hopefully they'll provide some numbers.

    I added a new sheet to the spreadsheet with some fluid data for both DOT and Mineral oils, will update as I get more info. Not sure how to link sheets directly, but just new tab called "Fluids" at bottom:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...w1ufKfowEBu1AKh8sB6T8e24Y/edit#gid=1073048767

    Curious, what do you rate as a powerful brake?
    I found the M810 and M820 when brand new had pretty similar power (both quite good), although the 810 pads fade after a while whereas the 820 heatsink ones keep better bite over time.
     
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  8. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    saint m810s. I think the 820s have more raw power, but don't have enough time to say. I know that when I rode the 810s, there was nothing else I wanted, which is not usually the case with brakes. Everything has a flaw, poor modulation, lack of power, fade, but the 810s were none of those. Only problem was occasional phantom bite point, which went away after fresh fluid and bleed. They were some of the best brakes I've ridden, but I didn't love the lever blades, to be honest.

    gustavs were powerful as well. zero modulation but they could lock a wheel at any speed.
     
  9. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Yeah fair enough, just wondered because you said "not as powerful as the new ones".
    I felt they were up there for power, mine never had a varying bite point either which was nice (although I had XTs with the same style lever that had huge bite point variations no matter the bleed, good ol' shimano luck of the draw). The 810 throw was very long though and got longer ever year which is why I eventually ditched them.
     
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  10. 9M119

    9M119 Chimp

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    Thx for the m810 info. I'll need to try before buying since I might not get on with the lever throw and shape. I like my levers very close to grips, kind of hanging my finger joint on them and biting nearly instantly. Think it may also be why Im fine with mushy avid levers.
     
  11. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    If any of you guys want some 810s I've still got a set.

    10 rides in on a fresh bleed and you'll have a different bite point every time you squeeze the lever. It's like a box of chocolates yo.
     
  12. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    While I didn't like the shape, I did love that I could get the levers right next to the bar. That was nice for one finger braking.
     
  13. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    Same here. I never loved the lever shape, but still ran them for more than 3 years. They had some bite point issues but the power on tap and resistance to fade was great. In the end, my master cylinder seals failed after years of very hard use and abuse and I couldn't find replacements. I tried M820s and Codes before getting Hope V4s as their eventual replacement.
     
  14. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    For reference the nylon line M810s the same weight as the braided line Hope V4s (within 5g).
     
  15. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Anybody know if the Formula R1 Racing uses the same lever as the R0 Racing, or is the master cylinder smaller to match the smaller pistons?
     
  16. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    It's the same (own both and have used them interchangeably).

    If it's for parts though, make sure it's the correct year R1 Racing lever version - because there's an older version with the same name which is the "old" lever style (not the new pull-style piston).
     
  17. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Cool, thanks.

    Not looking for parts, buying new brakes for my hardtail (replacing Shimano brakes that are doing Shimano things and trying to kill me by going to the bar occasionally). I'm extremely happy with my RORs, and might just get another set of them, but can get R1Rs a bit cheaper, and probably don't strictly need the R0R power on a hardtail with 26" wheels and a 203mm front rotor. I quite like the feel of the R0R though, and I'm not sure if I'd want less lever stroke, which the R1R presumably has, if the MC is the same. I guess unless they built in more piston rollback on the R1R, which frankly would be welcome.
     
    #457 -   Nov 17, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  18. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    If it's not a big price difference and you're happy with the ROR I'd recommend getting those again, the R1R (22mm piston) is two steps down in power and you might find it somewhat lacking as a result, especially given the ROR isn't the most powerful brake in the world to begin with.

    There's also a T1R (24mm piston) between those which would probably be fine. The effective piston diameter of the RO for comparison is defined in the spreadsheet.
     
  19. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Oh, I read/remembered wrong. I thought the R1s were the 24mm piston. Also, doesn't Formula claim that the R0s are 25.4mm effective diameter? Or is that some nonsense not strictly reflecting the surface area? I guess I could go measure, but my garage is cold as fuck at the moment, so speculating on the internet sounds better. :D

    Anyway, guess I'll get another set of R0s. You're right that they're not the most outright power of anything out there, but they're pretty solid, and at 160lbs on big rotors and 26" wheels, they're enough for me. And the lever feel is great, and they're actually consistent and reliable, so that's a win.
     
  20. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You should go get a space heater.
     
  21. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    I can do both.
     
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  22. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    So are the 820s more consistent? I've tried a few on friends/rent bikes and they all have had the same issue as my 810s so I sticked to my old saints (but I'm a weirdo and I love the lever design too)
     
  23. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    R1 = 22mm
    T1 = 24mm
    RO = Rectangle-elongated circle (not actual oval) of either 25.8 or 25.4 (depends who you ask) large diameter and 24mm small diameter. There's some discussion at the end of post 405. If you want to measure a piston yourself, you can plug the values into my formula in that cell.

    And yeah, I agree on all counts. Glad you're getting along with them, I don't have to feel guilty. :)
    Wonder what postage would cost over to you, I have a 2nd set of RORs that aren't in use atm.

    Nah, they're worse. I've had 2-3 friends crash as a direct result of 820s randomly coming to the bar, even when bled properly. I found the 810s had excessive throw but stayed consistent (if you got a good set to begin with, sounds like you did, as did I). I wouldn't bother with the 820, Shimano don't deserve money until they get off their fishing boat and fix that BS.

    For a DH / Park bike, esp with 27.5 or 29 wheels, IMO the brake to get is either the Trickstuff Direttissima or Hope V4 depending on budget. For trailbikes and/or smaller wheels many other brakes are fine.
     
  24. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Aren't both of them stupid expensive? Any formula models are decent? My Saints have some issues but nothing super annoying and I don't think my level went to the bar once. I'm still tempted to rebuy old gustavs just because they worked no problems even if the weight on them made no sense. (I have like 1.5 gustavs so all I'd need is a lever)
     
  25. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    What about a shimano lever on a gustav caliper? not sure how the hydraulics would work out, could be a super powerful brake as the gustavs were near useless for me due to their power.

    Udi loves formulas, but I think the consensus is generally that they lack in overall power, but make up for it in modulation and reliability. I have a set of T1S on my wall that are just not powerful enough for DH, but dang are they solid brakes for a trail bike.

    Are your saints the very old ones? Those are usually a favorite for their simplicity and modulation, but not necessarily outright power.
     
  26. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Naah. 810s so the 4 piston ones. I never had problems with modulation on the newer lever on the gustavs since the lever was very long but it has been so much time I may be wrong.

    If I had the money I'd simply get a v4.
     
  27. troy

    troy Monkey

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    Just plug Your saint lever to the Gustav caliper and try it. It should work just fine.
     
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  28. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Yeah but I want old gustav reliability, not saint 810 reliability (which is good, just not very good)
     
  29. troy

    troy Monkey

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    M810 Saint levers do not have those problems FWIK.
     
  30. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    If they had no problems at all why would I want to change them? That would not be very logical to think "OK I have brakes with no problem so it's reasonable for me to switch to an older heavier product". M810s have less problems than it's competition but they are not 100% consistent. Maguras were as long as you didn't transport your bike upside down.
     
  31. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Yeah I agree, I think I'm a bit lighter than you so they seemed to stop fine in the 26" days, but when I switched to 650b they were very obviously lacking in power, and I had to run a bigger caliper (not formula) to get more.

    I find your power commentary interesting which is why i asked before btw, I vaguely remember you saying the MT5s weren't that powerful either, but the ones I tried (a few sets of 5 and 7) seemed comparable to M810. I've wondered why we had different experiences, inclined to believe yours as you owned them. Not that I'm a super Magura fan (awful levers) but they seemed to stop well.

    This was my experience. I think you already know the answer though, just run them until you can afford to solve the problem properly - especially if you're "relatively happy" with the current setup. Won't kill you to wait by the sounds.
     
  32. toodles

    toodles Turbo Monkey

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    I've found the V4s on sale on CRC, Merlin, etc from time to time for a good price. They're comparable to Formula cost-wise anyway.
     
  33. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Yeah. They are very good brakes. I know they will stop me even if sometimes they will piss me off but that's because I like minimal lever throw and I know few brakes offer consistency + that. The only thing is a pop out lever from the formulas since I have spiderhands and broken fingers are annoying.

    Plan b is what Toodles said but if I get some extra cash I'd rather upgrade the whole bike to something longer.
     
  34. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    I'm not going to lie and say I have a ton of time on the mt5s. I have a few days, and I'm an overweight downhiller with time on 810s, xts, T1Ss beforehand, plus some other older brakes I'd rather not mention. I think the thing with the maggies is that they modulate excessively, so ultimate power is difficult to come by. I know I can stop, and they really do resist fade and all that, but with Shimano it's on, the anchor is dropped, you're slowing down. With the MT5 I feel like it requires more finger pressure to get the same power. I think better pads (the race compound sitting in my bin) combined with servo wave levers will really get the feel that i'm after, but I'm not excited about taking apart two functional sets of brakes when I don't get much riding time (kids) these days.

    SO, the T1Ss might be underpowered, but the maggies I think are fine, just too much modulation for a sport where you want aggressive braking. I would swap that feel on my trail bike in an instant to get less aggressive bite.
     
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  35. StiHacka

    StiHacka Compensating for something

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    My experience with the terrible MT-8s was different - I don't drag / use brakes on my trail bikes for extended periods of time, I mostly apply them in bursts. For that use, "extra modulation" with long throw and delayed bite are absolutely terrible and they will frustrate and slow you down.
     
  36. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    To echo what has been said about Formula: power is adequate to stop me, at 160lbs, on a 26" wheeled DH bike, but it's definitely a step down from, say, Saints. Everything else about them is great.
     
  37. Westy

    Westy the teste

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    Hope was doing this 15 years ago. Ahead of their time.
     
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  38. KAZHA

    KAZHA Chimp

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    Any replacement ideas for ZEE levers? Magura really flexes so much as everyone says?
     
  39. Sandwich

    Sandwich just shake your rump
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    wait, are you wanting to move from zee levers on zee calipers to some other lever? I'm confused.

    Magura levers have typical magura ergonomics- shitty. I haven't noticed any flex in mine, but if you're putting that much stress on your levers, then you probably need new pads/rotors/brakes/trails. You shouldn't have to four finger brake anymore, this isn't 2001.
     
  40. KAZHA

    KAZHA Chimp

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    Yes,I would like to do that exactly.
    Had no problems with leaking calipers as everyone keeps mentioning.
    Disassembled/assembled lever couple times,still can't figure out where the air is getting sucked in.
    With my adjusted reach first pull goes nearly to the bar, second is what I have ordered, bleeding doesn't seem to fix it.

    I will admit that this would be the 4th or 5th season for these brakes,so maybe they just expired?
    I like the shimano lever ergonomics,but the build quality is very low tech, so maybe there is a "better" option, cause you can always gamble with a new shimano lever.