[Peregrinebikes]

Hey Ridemonkeys,
So we are pretty serious about developing a gearbox bike. And it may be protoyped very soon (few months).
This may sound stupid, but how many of you are actually serious about this concept?
Sure there is a lot of spouting off in different threads, but would you want to except the possible price tag, possible weight penalty, may not be timely if a part breaks to get replaced,etc.
I figure with what some are spending on carbon framesets and parts these days, price definitely may not deter some.
But what is the concensus here at this point for serious buyers?

And don't worry about getting Lahar'ed. I don't believe in taking money until i have a product to handout.

 

[Jm_]

I think kidwoo has a box of gears.

 

[Jm_]

To be serious though, a few good posts have shown up on some of the various sites, saying essentially the same thing:

The efficiency of a traditional chain system is very good, most internally geared solutions can not compete with this, so if the internally geared solution can give comparable gear range and efficiency with good support/off the shelf parts and comparable weight, then great, but the traditional chain setup has been so popular due to how efficient it is and how well it works and many gearbox/internal gear products have vastly over-stated the efficiency of their system. Recent improvements like 1x10/11 and narrow-wide have breathed a lot of life back into the derailleur setup, allowing reliable shifting in some pretty crappy conditions.

 

[vinny4130]

From the stand point of a DH bike it only makes sense to me. Its not as efficient true, but Gwinn's spez didn't pedal so well either. I want a gear box bike as my next DH bike. Hub like the zerode, Effie(sp?), pinion, derailler in a box (Honda), derailler upside down in a frame (bcd), the configuration doesn't matter it's not having a delicate mechanism hanging off the side of my bike.

 

[saruti]

if you want something that will be good and will sell,
make a gear hub. if there was a 142x12 11 speed light gear hub, I will buy it.
and think about it. frames are hard to sell. there are too many frame (good ones) to pick.
a good hub, with inside gears, that will be light like a regular hub + derailleur+ cassette.... = win!
riding my bike in the mud, made me think about this. especially after breaking a new x9 derailleur... and\or ghost shifting when mud get in the cassette....
sorry if my English is not good enough to explain myself.

 

[captainspauldin]

I think going with something off-the-shelf like a pinion gearbox or a internally geared hub is probably the best solution. Developing your own just seems like a moneypit.

 

[vinny4130]

I agree that the money pit of development is most likely, but someone is going to make a better gearbox eventually.

 

[92SE-R]

That defeats one of the main reasons gearboxes exist, to reduce unsprung weight. If you want to even consider a gearbox, it has to be on the frame.

if you want something that will be good and will sell,
make a gear hub. if there was a 142x12 11 speed light gear hub, I will buy it.
and think about it. frames are hard to sell. there are too many frame (good ones) to pick.
a good hub, with inside gears, that will be light like a regular hub + derailleur+ cassette.... = win!
riding my bike in the mud, made me think about this. especially after breaking a new x9 derailleur... and\or ghost shifting when mud get in the cassette....
sorry if my English is not good enough to explain myself.

 

[slyfink]

That defeats one of the main reasons gearboxes exist, to reduce unsprung weight. If you want to even consider a gearbox, it has to be on the frame.

this

 

[Sandwich]

Not anymore. I think if you want a gearbox solution, the zerode exists. If you want pure experimentation, then that's cool as a novelty, but the reality of a bike that is robust enough to be ridden often with minimal upkeep and maximum durability is that it's pretty easy to get nowadays. Clutch derailleurs, short clusters, great chain devices, functional shifters...I don't have a lot of complaints with the drivetrain on my DH bike.

The zerode is, by function, a gearbox bike. I'd love to ride one, but I think there are arguments both for and against the thing...

 

[EVIL JN]

For me to buy a gearbox frame it has to have/do these (in this order)

1 have proper geometry/sizes (something like the Demo)
2 shift while coasting, preferably without a moving chain
3 good realiability/availability of service and replacements
4 decent suspension design (no super high/low funky pivot), just something that is within the norms of anti-squat, wheelpath and easy to wrench on
5 No f*cking stupid "standards", just plain 150/135 hub, 73/83 bb, 1.5ht etc

Beyond that it just have to be like most other frames no wonky tubing or colors etc.


Tick these boxes and I'll sell my current v10.6 asap and throw the money on you!

 

[ZHendo]

For me to buy a gearbox frame it has to have/do these (in this order)

1 have proper geometry/sizes (something like the Demo)
2 shift while coasting, preferably without a moving chain
3 good realiability/availability of service and replacements
4 decent suspension design (no super high/low funky pivot), just something that is within the norms of anti-squat, wheelpath and easy to wrench on
5 No f*cking stupid "standards", just plain 150/135 hub, 73/83 bb, 1.5ht etc

Beyond that it just have to be like most other frames no wonky tubing or colors etc.


Tick these boxes and I'll sell my current v10.6 asap and throw the money on you!

This is a great list, but I'd like to emphasize #4. One of the things that I think has limited the appeal of gearbox bikes in the past has been the fact that gearbox bikes were (apparently) designed by mad scientists who wanted the bike to look like a goddamn frankenbike experiment. Just because the gearbox concept is somewhat off the beaten path doesn't mean that every other aspect of the bike has to be as well. This is why Zerode has been so successful relative to past gearbox bike attempts - they made a bike that sane people actually wanted to ride on actual downhill tracks. The suspension design makes sense, capitalizing on the benefits of not having a derailleur while minimizing gimmicks and Horst-driven-concentric-pivot-VPP-DW link suspension designs.

When choosing your gearbox, choose one that doesn't have a stupid shifter. Pick one with a trigger shifter so as to avoid the terror of trying to shift a gripshift in a technical downhill situation.

I think the ultimate benefit of a gearbox is to create a fully protected, long-wearing drivetrain solution. That's pretty much the heart of it in my eyes. If you can create a bike that is not prohibitively expensive and adheres to the principals above while keeping that simple benefit of a gearbox as the main value-add, you'll be on to something.

 

[Peregrinebikes]

I think going with something off-the-shelf like a pinion gearbox or a internally geared hub is probably the best solution. Developing your own just seems like a moneypit.

We are looking at Effigear and Pinion. Unfortunately there are not too many reviews. One of my concerns is the drag you may get with these. For me, the extra weight is not a big deal especially because it is centered and low, unlike the Zerode where the hub is up high in the frame.

I have a friend who was at Honda in R&D. Did a little with RN01 bike. Honda experimented with different types of gear systems. For the weight and efficiency that a milled out gear cluster like shimano/sram and derailluer in the box, you cant beat it. Chainline was always lined up because the gear on the crank moved in line with the corresponding gear on the cluster. And supposedly they never really had malfunction issues. At the races they always stripped them off the bikes for security reasons.

A system like this will cost money because of all the machinging costs. Already been there at that point.

But the Honda setup is very DH specific as far as gearing goes. With a Pinion or Effigear, you can have more range to climb if needed.

We would be looking at doing a 6" bike and an 8" bike.

We would be looking to go high pivot. For those of you who have not ridden a high pivot, they are a night and day difference from pretty much what every other manufacture makes besides the Jedi and now Commencal. I personally would never go back to riding a low pivot design or a near vertical wheel path.

 

[vinny4130]

I didn't want to induce my personal biased frame opinion originally but here goes. At the moment I think to much rearward wheel path is awkward (eg. Jedi). I will say the only two Canfield bikes I have messed with had pretty wack setups by the bikes owners, so I will concede that it is probably a better bike than my current experiences. But the chain stay increase seems a bit much. My experiences with zerode have been great, and I haven't tried the 27.5 only g1 and g2. Some reasons I like it so much, normal cranks, sram shifter, rearward but not excessive axle path, and quiet. When riding it in chunder it's a beast, just fantastic! So it's a heavy contender for my next DH frame. I was also looking at nicolai but looking today it seems they are missing the gearbox DH bike, or am I just missing it?

 

[ianjenn]

The Alfine on the Zerode where it is still centralizing the weight. It is also about 2lbs less than a Pinion. Once the Pinion becomes the go to for Zerode it will be a BB mount like all the other Pinion bikes. I am curious to see if the Carbon cranks for the Pinion come to market that will shave some weight....

Being able to shift at any time is nice and combined with the high pivot and idler the pedal feedback is almost 0 and it eats rocks very well.

 

[saruti]

You can already see in the answers here, that it will be very hard to sell a complete frame…

The Zeroed is great frame. My friend ride one. It is fast. And the gear works great with no problems so far (3 years)

Light gear hub for 6” bikes is the way.

I heard the Rolhoff is coming out with a 142x12 hub now, but it needs adapters…. (WTF)…

On my DH bike I use a single speed… so for me gears on a DH bike is no interest.

Look at where the world is going. Enduro bikes are the future .

If you want to sell, gear hub. Just make it through axle (142x12 or whatever), and light like hub + cassette + derailleur + chain device.

 

[saruti]

the next Rohloff
1.7kg (claimed) and now I understand how they going to close the wheel to the frame (with bolts)
if you can make something like that, with a through axle, and maybe lighter. = win.

http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_a12_c584427667.png

 

[jackalope]

Good read so far, but is there anyway we can change "census" to "consensus" in the title? Otherwise, it sounds like a thread about gearbox population estimates.

 

[Peregrinebikes]

I didn't want to induce my personal biased frame opinion originally but here goes. At the moment I think to much rearward wheel path is awkward (eg. Jedi). I will say the only two Canfield bikes I have messed with had pretty wack setups by the bikes owners, so I will concede that it is probably a better bike than my current experiences. But the chain stay increase seems a bit much. My experiences with zerode have been great, and I haven't tried the 27.5 only g1 and g2. Some reasons I like it so much, normal cranks, sram shifter, rearward but not excessive axle path, and quiet. When riding it in chunder it's a beast, just fantastic! So it's a heavy contender for my next DH frame. I was also looking at nicolai but looking today it seems they are missing the gearbox DH bike, or am I just missing it?

I thought Nicolai has a Pinion gearbox frame for DH. Maybe you missed it.

 

[Peregrinebikes]

the next Rohloff
1.7kg (claimed) and now I understand how they going to close the wheel to the frame (with bolts)
if you can make something like that, with a through axle, and maybe lighter. = win.

http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_a12_c584427667.png

I would not be to keen on putting a Rohloff hub out at the back wheel in a 6" travel bike. Over 2lbs out at the axle.

 

[Peregrinebikes]

The Alfine on the Zerode where it is still centralizing the weight. It is also about 2lbs less than a Pinion. Once the Pinion becomes the go to for Zerode it will be a BB mount like all the other Pinion bikes. I am curious to see if the Carbon cranks for the Pinion come to market that will shave some weight....

Being able to shift at any time is nice and combined with the high pivot and idler the pedal feedback is almost 0 and it eats rocks very well.

The Pinion maybe heavier than the Alfine that Zerode uses, but look at the extra frame weight the Zerode has to have to build around it. If they go Pinion, their frame weights may still come out nearly the same with the weight mass being as low as you can get it.

I have the ability right now to purchase a Pinion P1.12 gearboxes. Here is another caveat.
If you are the type of person who has 2-3 bikes, if they were all Pinion set up frames, just switch the gearbox and shifter to the frame you want to ride. If you ride mostly your 6" travel frame but want to stick it on your DH frame for the mountain resorts, switch it over.

 

[Peregrinebikes]

I didn't want to induce my personal biased frame opinion originally but here goes. At the moment I think to much rearward wheel path is awkward (eg. Jedi). I will say the only two Canfield bikes I have messed with had pretty wack setups by the bikes owners, so I will concede that it is probably a better bike than my current experiences. But the chain stay increase seems a bit much. My experiences with zerode have been great, and I haven't tried the 27.5 only g1 and g2. Some reasons I like it so much, normal cranks, sram shifter, rearward but not excessive axle path, and quiet. When riding it in chunder it's a beast, just fantastic! So it's a heavy contender for my next DH frame. I was also looking at nicolai but looking today it seems they are missing the gearbox DH bike, or am I just missing it?

I think the Zerode has as much rearward travel as the Jedi. It must have been the setup. Our bike right now has a tad more than both. Doesn't feel awkward to me. Feels better, especially in rocks where a dh bike should be ridden.

 

[no skid marks]

Efficiency between mech and gearbox is measured in labs. In clean conditions with new equipment.
With a selection of ten gearbox bikes from a chairlift line and ten deraileured bikes with all the dirt and misalignment , chain guide rub, and poor tunes people just put up with I think the differences would be a lot closer. New gearboxes generally are less efficient than used ones also.
Then there's the fact you can change gears a lot easier with a gearbox bike, and quicker, and as many gears as desired in one hit. So the fact your in the right gear more often should be considered in the efficiency debate.
Not to mention derailuer malfunctions, yes some have few to none, but some have many failures and poor performance. Then there's premature cable, chain and sprocket wear from a mech, risking failure and time off bike. Chain & cable load is less on a gearbox bike when shifting most of the time as the chain is running straight, not bent and rammed into other gears under load.
Not part of the debate, but servicing time spent on a mech bike is far greater than a gearbox bike.
Not sure how much drag the Honda had eventually, but chain was running constantly in the end I think.
Disregardless of the creators flaws. The Lahar is still one of the best and most reliable DH bikes made to date.
Same with the Zerode. If you can build a bike as good as either of them you'll be doing well.
You could also talk to Nuvinci, see if they could make you a different lighter shell to use inboard. More drag again for the haters, but their hubs are narrower than the Alfine or Rohloff once spacers are removed, so you could make it fit in a AM(Funduro) frame. & no indexing is cool.
People who've not owned and lived with a gearbox don't quite comprehend the benefits of shifting any time. It's not til you jump back on a bike without a mech you realize how clumsy and inefficient they are. Gearboxes aren't some holly grail, it is only shifting and maintenance, and repairs and wrecked bike trips I guess. Like most advances in bike tech now, they're pretty small advantages, but I think Gearboxes offer the largest untapped benefits still, even if not a massive game changer that everyone has to have(marketing will make that happen if either big Ss peruse it).
As always, everything is a compromise, including gearboxes, I feel the benefits listed above and centralized low weight and less unsprung weight, outweigh the slight weight penalty and chance of getting stung in need of a replacement gearbox. This later one is a small risk and will be getting smaller as more shops etc begin to stock spares. We(Crankin) stocked a Zerode Alfine gearbox here in oz for five years before someone bought it cause theirs was neglected and got tired. I can't imagine the Pinion is quite as reliable as that(I might be wrong), but it'll be close. Not sure of the Effigear yet. Both brands should only get better.
Thats my 2bobs worth.

 

[vinny4130]

Only from memory I thought the the Jedi has more than the zerode ianjenn may know that one, or it could be the total extended chain stay was longer something like that.

 

[no skid marks]

Only from memory I thought the the Jedi has more than the zerode ianjen may know that one, or it could be the total extended chain stay was longer something like that.

Yeah Jedi has more total rearward axle travel. Think it's half inch or so.

 

[ianjenn]

The 2010 Jedi we tested had enough rearward arc to make it noticeable it tight corners. Non of the Zerodes G1-G2 displayed this. So I assume it is because Zerode's have less.

 

[Peregrinebikes]

I personally agree with No Skid Marks views, and i myself want a gearbox because of the positives and do not mind the extra weight.

I would be looking at designing with the Pinion and doing a DH bike and a 6" bike.

But we only have time to do so many things. We have designed a 6" version now and did a small redesign on the DH version after doing this first run. If i want to go gearbox, these get to sit while we do that.

Just trying to see what peoples attitudes are now days about the old concept.

 

[Peregrinebikes]

The 2010 Jedi we tested had enough rearward arc to make it noticeable it tight corners. Non of the Zerodes G1-G2 displayed this. So I assume it is because Zerode's have less.

What is the height of the pivot placement above the BB on the Jedi and Zerode if you happen to know.

 

[lobsterCT]

What is the height of the pivot placement above the BB on the Jedi and Zerode if you happen to know.

I have a 2015 Jedi. Just rough eye balling it with a tape measure, it looks like the axis of rotation of the lower pivot is about 4.25" above and 1.5" forward of the axis of rotation of the bottom bracket.

 

[rollertoaster]

We are looking at Effigear and Pinion. Unfortunately there are not too many reviews. One of my concerns is the drag you may get with these. For me, the extra weight is not a big deal especially because it is centered and low, unlike the Zerode where the hub is up high in the frame.

I have a friend who was at Honda in R&D. Did a little with RN01 bike. Honda experimented with different types of gear systems. For the weight and efficiency that a milled out gear cluster like shimano/sram and derailluer in the box, you cant beat it. Chainline was always lined up because the gear on the crank moved in line with the corresponding gear on the cluster. And supposedly they never really had malfunction issues. At the races they always stripped them off the bikes for security reasons.

A system like this will cost money because of all the machinging costs. Already been there at that point.

But the Honda setup is very DH specific as far as gearing goes. With a Pinion or Effigear, you can have more range to climb if needed.

We would be looking at doing a 6" bike and an 8" bike.

We would be looking to go high pivot. For those of you who have not ridden a high pivot, they are a night and day difference from pretty much what every other manufacture makes besides the Jedi and now Commencal. I personally would never go back to riding a low pivot design or a near vertical wheel path.

I would advise you to stay as far away from effigear as possible. I have a friend who was working with cavaliere who uses effigear. Nothing but problems, broken gears etc... Furthermore the freewheeling system sideloads the gear whenever power is applied. You couldn't give me a bike with that gearbox. In my opinion it needs a ground up redesign

 

[Peregrinebikes]

I have a 2015 Jedi. Just rough eye balling it with a tape measure, it looks like the axis of rotation of the lower pivot is about 4.25" above and 1.5" forward of the axis of rotation of the bottom bracket.

Thanks. I will have to plot that out to see where the arc lies if i get around to it. I know they claim 2.5" of growth at 9" of travel. I will plot that out. Probably will be like the pivot is 7-8" above the BB

 

[Peregrinebikes]

I would advise you to stay as far away from effigear as possible. I have a friend who was working with cavaliere who uses effigear. Nothing but problems, broken gears etc... Furthermore the freewheeling system sideloads the gear whenever power is applied. You couldn't give me a bike with that gearbox. In my opinion it needs a ground up redesign

Thanks for the heads up. I talked to a guy on pinkbike who has one and did have issues with his. He said the company was great to work with and sent the parts out free of charge. But it does sound like they need to work some things out.

We would go with the Pinion. Theirs looks to be pretty solid. But it is an extra 2.5lbs vs a traditional setup.
I personally would not care to gain the positives of having it.

So the dilema is " To gearbox, or not to gearbox". It seems a up until a couple years ago people were all over the idea. Now not as much.

I guess Sram has convinced most that it is no good.

We will have to decide. May be we will gearbox it in 26" wheels and say screw you MTB world.

 

[EVIL JN]

If you can make a bike that is as good as the equivalent from Spec, Trek, Giant, SC, YT etc and put a good gearbox at a small weight penalty and at a reasonable price IT WILL SELL.

No manufacturer has ever before ticked all the boxes, Zerode and Nicolai has come close but Nicolai is scary expensive and Zerode is a little off in the geo department (size wise) and look wise. Not that I personally care about looks that much but in sales everything counts.

Take an alfine hub and make a Demo/Enduro or V10/Bronson and you'll be golden.

 

[Peregrinebikes]

If you can make a bike that is as good as the equivalent from Spec, Trek, Giant, SC, YT etc and put a good gearbox at a small weight penalty and at a reasonable price IT WILL SELL.

No manufacturer has ever before ticked all the boxes, Zerode and Nicolai has come close but Nicolai is scary expensive and Zerode is a little off in the geo department (size wise) and look wise. Not that I personally care about looks that much but in sales everything counts.

Take an alfine hub and make a Demo/Enduro or V10/Bronson and you'll be golden.

I agree with what you have said. Nicolai is way to much. Zerode is not too too bad as far as expense goes, but still higher than what a lot would want to pay and their front triangle is ugly as hell with that top tube.

The Pinion gearbox looks like the best option. With that you are looking at somewhere around a 3lb gain. For me that is not a big deal given the performance benefits. My last couple rides i have in my mind all the places where i would shift if i did not have to pedal or thinking in this section if i could pedal more i would go one gear higher etc. Tuesday, i when i hit a shift it kind of skipped on me. Everytime that happens now, the box idea looks way better even wih the extra weight.

I will let you guys know next week. I may have 3 Pinions on the way to fab up.

 

[ianjenn]

That ugliness you are worried about also helps to make it one of the stiffest MTB chassis I have ever ridden. Plus I like the look of it. The negative was the production cost of the frame!!

 

[vinny4130]

I like the zerode top tube, it reminds me of a gas tank and for some reason that makes me happy.

 

[velocipedist]

I miss my zerode and will lust after their trail bike when it drops. Hands down the stiffest bike I have ever ridden and I am still in awe of how well it pedals. I dream of a trail bike with that pedalling platform, hardtailesque to put it in words. Shit eating grin from ear to ear. Maybe Rob will tire from his carbon wonderbike one of these days...

 

[Peregrinebikes]

That ugliness you are worried about also helps to make it one of the stiffest MTB chassis I have ever ridden. Plus I like the look of it. The negative was the production cost of the frame!!

No doubt about why they designed it that way. If i had not gotten into building, i most likely would have purchased one of these even if i do think the top tube is awful looking.

Love Vinny4130's comment!

 

[vinny4130]

Thanks! The tank shape is even more pronounced in person. I want a black one but it's bad timing for a new DH frame.

 

[allsk8sno]

I would love a nice 5-6" travel gearbox bike, i hate derailures and all that goes with them, new clutch systems takeaway from suspension too...as said before, hit a decent price point and it will sell,