god's chosen people
- Thread starter LordOpie
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i just read silvers post. hmm, i think that was the single opinion of one very disoriented pastor. i´ve been to protestant temples more than once, well actually a lot (somehow i dated a hardcore home-schooled baptist for a while a long time ago), and every one has a different view of the universe, with the certainty they are the chosen ones, with feelings ranging from the ones feeling sorry for jews for not accepting christ (somebody once literally told me thats so sad, am sorry for you), to the ones hating jews as the cause of every problem in the universe.LordOpie said:
But i never met one that saw jews as the chosen people instead of themselves. maybe silvers churchs pastor has some sort of inferiority complex or something.
It is wierd when you consider that the Muslims hold Jesus in higher respect than the Jews.LordOpie said:
Basic Christian teaching is that the Jews were God's chosen people but they fvcked it up. They had their chance and they blew it. It's now a free-for-all, Gentiles 'n' all.
However, it's not that uncommon a delusion, but then why should we think that Christian religious leaders should be any more logical and rational than the rest of the human race?
One problem is this thing called "replacement theology" which basically says that Christians and the church (which is not mentioned anywhere in the New Testament) replace the nation of Israel and in effect become the spiritual "nation". In effect the Church is now "God's chosen people". This is a heresy, and is hugely non-Biblical (both Old Testament and New Testament), but unfortunatly is taught alot today.LordOpie said:
The Scriptures tell us that Christians (specifically Gentiles) are the "wild branch" grafted into the tree of Israel, not become the tree, or cut the old tree down, but are grafted into that tree. The apostle Paul tells us that as Christian Gentiles we become like "spiritual" Jews, that spiritually we come from Abraham just like the Jews do spiritually and physically. So instead of replacing or removing the Jews, Christians become participants, we become partakers in the same covenant Abraham cut with YHVH in Genesis 15.
The question I have been wrestling with (which is related to what you ask LordOpie) is: a Jew in the OT was counted righteous (the Christian term would be "saved") by faith (ie Noah, Abraham, etc). My question is, which I have not been able to answer yet, is can a Jew today be counted righteous by God in the same manner, by faith? Even thought I believe the Messiah has come in Jesus, can a Jew who rejects this idea still be counted righteous through faith, just like they did before the Messiah showed up? I have no idea, but from what I have studied, I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility.
That may be a Christian teaching, but it is not based on the Scriptures. No where in the New Testament are Jews ever excluded from participating in the completion of the covenant God cut with Abraham.fluff said:
Where is this post of Silvers? I can't seem to find it. 
Andyman_1970 said:
A perfect illustration of why people's belief in organized religion is lost on the rest of us heathen... too much obscure minutia that winds up overwhelming the Big Picture. These micro-points, which have no real answers, only seem only to cause division and agnst amoungst the faithful.
Well, given that to be saved you must believe in Christ, the followers of Judaism are in trouble...Andyman_1970 said:
I don't have the time for scriptural references but they do exist on that basis.
Do you know what is typically quoted when this assumption is made? I've had big discussion with my Mother-in-law about this... according to her teachings you have to "accept" jesus to ascend to heaven, and this is how she justifies missionaries going to other country and trying to convert people.Andyman_1970 said:
I couldn't agree with you more, the Big Picture, or as I call it The Story, is what is relavent to people, not the doctrine of justification or replacement theology.N8 said:
In Andy's defense, he doesn't just look at the big picture and run with scissors, err, the little bits of info forced fed to people. He digs in and tries to educate himself. However, he did nearly blow my mind. Andy, keep it simple bro.N8 said:
But fluff's point of needing accept jesus half of the contradictory picture. I seems like it should be impossible to believe that -and- think jews are the chosen people. Unless you define chosen as something other than what's in my head.
Loopies I thought it was your mob that killed Jesus? Or has that all been sorted out? 
Faith in the Messiah is a "requirement" I hate to use that word to be "saved" or in the OT terms "counted righteous before God". I know the Scripture references you are talking about. However, the NT is clear that the Jews (the nation of Israel, which I believe is a reference to the physical nation in addition to the "spiritual" nation) will be and is a part of God's plan.fluff said:
Paul says we (Gentile Christians) are grafted into the tree of Israel. Well if Israel has rejected the Messiah, then that tree would be dead, if we use the thinking that faith in Jesus is needed? Correct? Why would Christians be grafted into a seemingly dead tree?
So my orginal question is: Jews in the OT were "saved" based on their faith in YHVH, some theologians think this was faith in the Messiah to come. So if the Messiah has already come, can a Jew by faith be "saved" even though they think the Messiah has not come yet, but their faith is in the Messiah to come? Did that make sense? Salvation by faith that "saved" the Jews did not fundamentally change post-Jesus, it is still faith that enables us to be in God's eyes "counted as righteous".
Sorry I did not mean to get off on a whole Soteriology (the study of salvation) discussion.
Sorry about that, I sure don't want to turn into the Christian version of Alexis_DH (with reference to his philisophical musings).LordOpie said:
Ah, didn't see this before:
To clarify: I was dopey, but not too dopey to hear what he said. Also, it's pretty standard stuff in American evangelical circles. The essence of it is that the US pisses God off royally in many ways (half the country frowns on killing fags, for God's sake!) but that the Lord still blesses us due to the fact that we support Israel.
Now, that doesn't mean that all Jews go to heaven (believe it or not, the jury is still out on dogs, no matter what the Disney movie implies, more on that in a different post)...they still need to accept Christ, but I think the reasoning is that since Jesus is coming soon for the last battle, and the last battle takes place in the Middle East so we had better be on the side of the Jews (because God is going to be right pissed if we are on the side of the "Muslim Nation.")
To clarify: I was dopey, but not too dopey to hear what he said. Also, it's pretty standard stuff in American evangelical circles. The essence of it is that the US pisses God off royally in many ways (half the country frowns on killing fags, for God's sake!) but that the Lord still blesses us due to the fact that we support Israel.
Now, that doesn't mean that all Jews go to heaven (believe it or not, the jury is still out on dogs, no matter what the Disney movie implies, more on that in a different post)...they still need to accept Christ, but I think the reasoning is that since Jesus is coming soon for the last battle, and the last battle takes place in the Middle East so we had better be on the side of the Jews (because God is going to be right pissed if we are on the side of the "Muslim Nation.")
Of course none of this matters because Osiris is in charge of the underworld.
IMO, the one thing that everyone needs to understand is that EVERY religion is wrong.
How can our finite minds comprehend the infinite?
I'm not saying that there isn't a "god". I'm just saying that all of these rules and laws and what not only end up putting something we can't understand into a "box" and limit what "god" truely is.
How do you define the infinite?
All religions are just as "true" as every other religion. They are all imperfect.
How can our finite minds comprehend the infinite?
I'm not saying that there isn't a "god". I'm just saying that all of these rules and laws and what not only end up putting something we can't understand into a "box" and limit what "god" truely is.
How do you define the infinite?
All religions are just as "true" as every other religion. They are all imperfect.
For obvious reasons I don't agree with the bulk of your post, and that's ok. But I did find this statement interesting:
I wish more Christians realized this. Far too many Christians think they have God all figured out and have Him in their "box". To quote Sean Penn "the mystery is the truth", it's those mysterious things about God that we can't figure out that just add to the awe of my faith. I mean, if we could figure God out with our limited minds, that would kind of "take the fun out of it".-BB- said:
Maybe, what we perceive as God is the by-product of our search for God. It has been said that if God did not exist it would be necessary for us to invent Him.
Andyman_1970 said:
Lets just take catholicism... one day they say something is a sin, a few years later it isn't. Did God change his mind? Were we WRONG before and are correct now?
If one religion is the TRUE one, will everyone else go to hell (a strictly Christian construct, but you get my point.)
There amy be a "force" out there that is the creator of everything, but all religions IMO are way too anthropomorphic.
an·thro·po·mor·phous ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nthr-p-môrfs)
Ascribing human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to things not human, such as inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.Having or suggesting human form and appearance.
IMO God isn't a dude... a Cow, an elephant... a fat guy with a big belly.
As Technitro said earlier, If god didn't exist, would humans still have to create him?
There is probably a "force" out there that created or governs everything, but HUMANS created "god".
BTW, I dont want to sound ilke I am ripping on christianity, I was just raised Catholic, so that is the religion I nkow the most about.
Whoa...chanelling Alec Guiness as Obi-Wan Kenobi-BB- said:
LOL - Although I do probably agree with BB's interpretation of things more than any religion. Relgions are full of Egos and power struggles. So contradictory. The 2 biggest scams in the world right now are 1) Organised religion and 2) George Bush's version of events around 9/11. (But that's for another thread)Silver said:Whoa...chanelling Alec Guiness as Obi-Wan Kenobi
Andyman: have you read any books like 'The Universe in a nutshell' or 'The elegant Universe'?
Changleen said:
Uh thanks!!
I just try to have the most open possible view of Gawd.
The only thing I know is that I know nothing.
Oh boy Catholicism..........what you are describing is what is known as progressive revelation or progressive truth, which I would argue is incompatable with Biblical Christianity. There are alot of "mainstream" Christian denominations that emphasize this, not just Catholics, some pentacostal and charismatic churches also emphasize this, not to mention the Mormons (not to lump all those together).-BB- said:
Nope, I'm currently "wading" through the Talmud (the Hebrew Oral Torah) which has been quite a task. I will add them to my list though.Changleen said:
Really the bottom line is this (for the common person anyways). Religion is not to be 'understood' but simply followed. It is simply a form of slavery, for people just to do what they are told in exchange for some sort of relief, or risk eternal damnation. For the fearful, it gives an answer to a question that can never really be answered (in this world). For the arrogant it lets them know that their self-important being will never "go away". For most everyone else it is simply something to do because it is just what is done.
If you think about religion critically it is all pretty damn strange, none of them are more strange than any other but all are pretty ridiculous in their in way. If you compare (for arguments sake) Christianity with Scientology from a non-biased (or equally biased) viewpoint, they are both quite outlandish. You either get the invisible, silent creator who gets pissed if you eat pork or have an oyster, to an intergalactic warlord who is trapped in a volcano. But the underlying principle is always the same. You follow blindly, or "have faith" in exchange for not being doomed to an eternity in, let's say a fiery lake.
While their may be some sort of higher power out there, I have confidence nobody in this plane of existence will ever know what or who it is. Anyone who says they do either wants your money, or worse your blind acceptance in a bid to make themselves more powerful.
What overall good has any religion ever done? How many people have killed because they dared say the earth was round? How many Africans are currently going to die because the Vatican told them condoms won't prevent the spread of disease. How many cultures in the past have been lost to us, because some priest decided to destroy it because it didn't mesh with his beliefs? How many wars have been waged in the name of a "loving god"? How many atrocities committed in his name?
If you think about religion critically it is all pretty damn strange, none of them are more strange than any other but all are pretty ridiculous in their in way. If you compare (for arguments sake) Christianity with Scientology from a non-biased (or equally biased) viewpoint, they are both quite outlandish. You either get the invisible, silent creator who gets pissed if you eat pork or have an oyster, to an intergalactic warlord who is trapped in a volcano. But the underlying principle is always the same. You follow blindly, or "have faith" in exchange for not being doomed to an eternity in, let's say a fiery lake.
While their may be some sort of higher power out there, I have confidence nobody in this plane of existence will ever know what or who it is. Anyone who says they do either wants your money, or worse your blind acceptance in a bid to make themselves more powerful.
What overall good has any religion ever done? How many people have killed because they dared say the earth was round? How many Africans are currently going to die because the Vatican told them condoms won't prevent the spread of disease. How many cultures in the past have been lost to us, because some priest decided to destroy it because it didn't mesh with his beliefs? How many wars have been waged in the name of a "loving god"? How many atrocities committed in his name?
Tenchiro, christianity certainly looks odd if you take the old testament/torah into account. but i think most christian sects/cults/whatever don't, and their message is simpler: tithe and be saved. er, i mean, where was i? in all seriousness tho, religion has done some good in its time by providing a framework through which a specific sense of morality is enforced on a population.
in all seriousness tho, religion has done some good in its time by providing a framework through which a specific sense of morality is enforced on a population.
Hi, intersting idea, but not a lot of research gone into that reply, philosophers have been reinventing their "positions" for years. Here's what I know about Jesus. I thought by looking at his followers I would see Him; that makes about as much sense as the nuts who follow bands and say they killed themselves because of the lyrics. Every individual must be taken for just that...an individual. You can't say that every Christian is a certain way, that's like stereotyping freeriders. It's just wrong. Second, people for years have been saying that there is no God or that He is relative to us, that is ego centric by definition and about as probable as a tornado going through a junkyard and "randomly" creating a perfectly working jumbo jet. We did not simply evolve from some other creature, there has been proof of evolution sure, but not from one species changing into an entirely different species, only species changing their individual abilities to conform to extreme situations. And your "theology" is actaully known throughout philoshophy and Christianity as "Relativism" or the chaos theory or last known by several famous philosophers as the non-reason theory and has been proven defunct by the search for the "noble savage" Philosophers said for years that morality was relative to the individual and the situation and that there was no "right" or "wrong" in the definitive sense. But when Hitler came around...well they simply had to change their "position" once again. You see, the church may be imperfect but God's Word, also known as the Bible, has not changed over the thousands of years it has been in exsistence. Sure people say that the interpretations are different but the story is intact and the meanings are the same as they have ever been. The "essence to the story never changed. Like the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the movies were "different" than the books, but the stories never changed, the content has always remained the same. There is far too much to this than can be covered in a thread on ridemonkey but there is one thing I can leave you with that you can not refute or argue... I lived 24 years without God in my life and was miserable for all of it, I have walked with this Christ for the last seven and He has never failed me or left me. He always hears me and answers the deepest cries of my heart. He has given me a new life and a new family. He loves me more than I could ever say or explain. And I would never have known or believed in Him if I would have looked through His followers, only by talking and trusting Him directly. I am grateful forever to Him for that and if I am living a lie than it is truly the greatest lie I have ever known and I am the scum of the earth, but I would never trade it for the life I led before HimTenchiro said:
You will never figure Him out. You can never hear enough facts to bring you to a conclusion. It is faith, and even that is a gift of God. For those who have ears to hear let them hear. For those with eyes to see, let them see. As for the Jews, God says that you cannot be a jew outwardly if you are not one inwardly. Jews are not jews by their ethnicity, but by their spirtuality. Gods chosen people is a study in itself in History because we all came from Adam and he was not a hebrew or a "jew" This all came about because of the fall of man and the seperation of the families. Remenber Noah? He was far before Abraham and he was considered righteous enough for God to preserve the Human race. There is lots to know, all you have to do is want to know it. Blessings in your hunt for the truth, If you truly look for it with all your heart you will find it. And I say, what else is so important that you would give your eternal soul in exchange for it? In other words, what else is there to spend your time on if it means losing your soul because of it? Moutain biking?, sex, power? What? If that's what you want, that's what you get. Believe it. Peace.
Dude, paragraphs.
Every Christian believes in the contents of the Bible. To a greater or lesser extent. There you go.Heath Sherratt said:
Why? You think that the order we see around us is proof of God? I guess you skipped science class... Try reading a little thermodynamics for a start. c
Now who's ego-centric? More to the point, there has been proof of Evolution as you say yourself, but there is zero evidence to support that we were created by God. That we did not evolve from another creature is what we call an 'opinion' or 'belief'. We cannot call it a theory as there is zero evidence to support it. Therefore we might even call it an 'irrational belief'.
So you are saying that if your 'God' did not exist there would be no Morality?
Therefore as I do not believe in God, I have no morals, or that my morals are somehow wrong? Well, that's clearly a crock of sh*t.
There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in the definative sense. There is simply majority rule on the subject. If you can't see that you're pretty dumb.
Actually, the Bible has changed considerably over the years. It's been translated multiple times, and as if this transistion wasn't violent enough, retranscribed even more, sections have been added an omitted by various rulers and organisations throughout time (notably Henry VIII removing huge chunks to allow divorce). The mere existance of different sects of the Christian church proves that. If the Bible was unchanged, surely there would be only one Christian church?
...nah, that's too cheap a shot...
Sounds like you're devoping some sort of psychosis. You have eyes and ears, but you choose to ignore quite a lot of the information availible to you.but I would never trade it for the life I led before Him
Dude, you don't have a soul. You just think you do. All that other stuff is just that - stuff, written in a book, by a man.
Unfortunatly far too often Christianity is presented this was "you don't want to go 'here' do you?", and people are scared into getting "saved". The problem is that Jesus never said that to people who were truly seeking out what this whole deal is. The Bible paints a picture of living in harmony with the Creator, not cowering in the corner hoping you don't mess up or He'll "zap" you.Tenchiro said:
Probably the biggest problem with evangelical Christiainity (and I am one so I speak from experience) is that we present God that way, "you don't want to go 'here' do you?", instead of this is a way of life, and God wants to restore you to how He orgininally intended you to be. But instead we get loads of Christians who have their "fire insurance" and yet their lives are not changed.............I think you guys call these folk hypocrites.
Jesus spoke directly against the arrogant and prideful that thought they had it all figured out, esspecially the religious types, He goes as far in one passage to call them "sons of Hell".Tenchiro said:
So often we as humans miss the point, and it is so sad. It is so hard for me to understand how people who claim to know God and Jesus, and yet perpetrate these kinds of actions, I don't get it.Tenchiro said:
Too funny! It's strange you mention that, I have been going "round and round" with some of my Christian brothers & sisters about how we are not obligated to tithe according to the Bible.............you would have thought I renounced Jesus as the Messiah. The more I researched the tithe the more I discovered that although tithing was "encouraged" there were whole chunks of it left out..........like the part that tells the Israelites to take the tithe once a year and go have a feast..........how come I've never heard that before????? :angry:Toshi said:
Anyway, let the fun continue..................
Heath Sherratt said:
I liked the Trillogy better. The bible was just too hokey ;P
Both of you have an idea... but neither of you know for sure.Changleen said:
This is a fact, the fact that we should all be able to live with. None of us know what is going to happen when we die... some of us think we do, but we don't. People can argue all day long, but in the end its all theories and hokey superstition.
However if evidence did ever come up to prove what happens when we die I think that it is the "science" people that would accept it as reality and the religeous people that would have a hard time letting go of their "faith".
Changleen said:
QUOTE=Changleen]Every Christian believes in the contents of the Bible. To a greater or lesser extent. There you go.Changleen said:
Why? You think that the order we see around us is proof of God? I guess you skipped science class... Try reading a little thermodynamics for a start. c
I have and it states that the period of time for "evolution to occur" would be more than a trillion years for it to begin, much less bring us to a place of such developed life forms as human beings, or frogs for that matter. There simply has not even been enough time for this random perfection to occur. The example used in moth mathematics classes is to take a dictionary and dump all the letters of ONE page into a bag, periods, commas, parenthesis, etc. and shake it up and dump it out and see how long it takes for two letters to land in their correct position. Mathematically it would take trillions of years with millions of tries EACH day for even one half of a sentence to land in perfect structure. To me it takes more faith to believe that.
Now who's ego-centric? More to the point, there has been proof of Evolution as you say yourself, but there is zero evidence to support that we were created by God. That we did not evolve from another creature is what we call an 'opinion' or 'belief'. We cannot call it a theory as there is zero evidence to support it. Therefore we might even call it an 'irrational belief'.
Evolution has been disproved quite definetly, I suppose it depends on what you want to believe. Simply because it is taught in schools does not mean it is true Christopher Columbus.
So you are saying that if your 'God' did not exist there would be no Morality?
Therefore as I do not believe in God, I have no morals, or that my morals are somehow wrong? Well, that's clearly a crock of sh*t. I am saying what has been said and discussed by Socrates, Deschates, Plato, and Every other great philosopher, morals are not indicitive of human behavior, they are complete and from an outside source, they cannot be relative or we would not see the common strand of "human nature" like murder and rape and such obvious things.
There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in the definative sense. There is simply majority rule on the subject. If you can't see that you're pretty dumb. Majority rule is not true either...Hitler? WWII That wasn't majority rule, that was the Atom bomb and some kick ass war strategies.
Actually, the Bible has changed considerably over the years. It's been translated multiple times, and as if this transistion wasn't violent enough, retranscribed even more, sections have been added an omitted by various rulers and organisations throughout time (notably Henry VIII removing huge chunks to allow divorce). The mere existance of different sects of the Christian church proves that. If the Bible was unchanged, surely there would be only one Christian church? .
...nah, that's too cheap a shot... Not true enough though.
Sounds like you're devoping some sort of psychosis. You have eyes and ears, but you choose to ignore quite a lot of the information availible to you.
Dude, you don't have a soul. You just think you do. All that other stuff is just that - stuff, written in a book, by a man. QUOTE]I have and it states that the period of time for "evolution to occur" would be more than a trillion years for it to begin, much less bring us to a place of such developed life forms as human beings, or frogs for that matter. There simply has not even been enough time for this random perfection to occur. The example used in most mathematics classes is to take a dictionary and dump all the letters of ONE page into a bag, periods, commas, parenthesis, etc. and shake it up and dump it out and see how long it takes for two letters to land in their correct position. Mathematically it would take trillions of years with millions of tries EACH day for even one half of a sentence to land in perfect structure. To me it takes more faith to believe that.
Evolution has been disproved quite definetly, I suppose it depends on what you want to believe. Simply because it is taught in schools does not mean it is true Christopher Columbus.
I am saying what has been said and discussed by Socrates, Deschartes, Plato, and Every other great philosopher, morals are not indicitive of human behavior, they are complete and from an outside source, they cannot be relative or we would not see the common strand of "human nature" like murder and rape and such obvious things.
Majority rule is not true either...Hitler? WWII That wasn't majority rule, that was the Atom bomb and some kick ass war strategies.
No, the sects come actually from people taking scripture out of context and using it to exert their own agendas.
Actually I am quite informed and continue to study, I have many years of both secular collegiate study and christian collegiate study, I devote my life to understanding and proclaiming. Read some C.S. Lewis, he is excellent at apologetics (the defense of the faith) I would recommend starting with MERE CHRISTIANITY and The ABOLITION OF MAN. He has done a lot better job of research and exploration with explanation seeing as how he was a don of Englands most prestigious schools.
The bible is a complete translation made by over a hundred scholars working from its best available Hebrew, Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), and Greek texts. Just the NIV (New International Version) began after several years of exploratory study by committees from the Christian Reformed Church and the National Ass. of Evangelicals, a group of scholars met a Palos Heights, Ill. and concurred in the need for a new translation of the bible into contemporary english. This gruop, though not made up of official church representatives, was transdenominational. It's conclusions was endorsed by a large number of leaders from many denominations who met in Chicago in 1966. Responsibilty for the new version was delegated by the Palos Heights gruop to a self governing body of fifteen, the comittee on bible translation composed for the most part of biblical scholars from colleges, universites, and seminaries. The fact that participants from the united states, great britian, canada, australia, and new zealand worked together gave it thier international scope. They were from many different denominations-including Anglican,Assemblies ofGod, Baptist, Brethren, Christian Reformed, Church of the Nazarene, Church of Christ, Evangelical Free, Lutheran, Mennonite, Methodist, Presbyterian, Weslyan and others-helped to safeguard the translation from sectarian bias. There is a sense that every translation is never finished and this goes along with most great literature but uniquely so to the bible because of it's tremendous claims and importance. The actual authors of the bible are more than 20, I don't have the exact amount right now but I know that it was written by many men thousands of years apart and with all different perspectives. You could do yourself a favor by doing a little research. It goes a long way.
It is an allagory of the Bible. So I guess it did it's job.golgiaparatus said: