Goodbye democracy, hello bank owned government

dante · Jul 7, 2012

I guess you're too young to remember what happened the last time a bunch of liberals voted 3rd party because the Democrat wasn't liberal enough... We ended up with 2 wars, tax cuts for the rich, record deficits and the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. I'm sure none of those people who voted for Ralph regretted their votes once Bush started his presidency, right?

By the way, it's cute that you (or whoever you copy/pasted from) took Obama's 08 numbers instead of his current ones.... That wouldn't be because those numbers have changed slightly this time around, would it? Or were you also anti-Obama back in 07/08 due to his contributors?

Pesqueeb · Jul 7, 2012

TheMontashu said:
1)I couldn't find the current numbers, I would be surprised if they changed much

2) I live in california, so obama get's my vote either way

3) voted for a 3rd party candidate in 08 as well

4) if they have change, PACs don't have to disclose doners anymore, so I would figure the actual numbers are worse

dante · Jul 7, 2012

Isn't he cute? He's like our liberal version of that brainwashed 13-year-old at CPAC a few years ago...

Mooshoo - see that little drop-down box in the upper-right-hand corner of your second link? The one that says "Mitt Romney"? Click it, and go down to Obama, then click "go". You'll get this:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00009638

Hey look, Goldman Sachs isn't ANYWHERE ON THE LIST. The first bank/financial institution is Wells Fargo at #17. Are you willing to rethink your position that Obama's "controlled by the banks", or that there's no discernible difference between Obama and Romney?

Furthermore, take a look at the direct spending vs indirect spending between Romney and Obama.

The vast majority of Romney spending during the month of May was done by corporate-funded SuperPACs, whereas the vast majority of Obama spending was done by the campaign (and openly disclosed funding).

Or this graph, which shows that the majority of Obama's money comes from donations of less than $200, whereas the VAST majority of Romney's money comes from people who've given the $2500 max (and then probably went and gave to SuperPACs supporting him.

I guess the only thing I can be thankful for is that you live in CA which will go solidly Democratic anyway. I'd hate to see your deductive reasoning play any part in the presidential outcome....

dante · Jul 7, 2012

By the way, if you want up-to-date numbers for Obama/Romney, including a breakdown of Above $200 / Below $200, just go here:

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance/

You know, do a little research before coming on here?

stevew · Jul 7, 2012

dante said:
I'd hate to see your deductive reasoning play any part in the presidential outcome....

you're one mean son of a bitch... :rofl:

$tinkle · Jul 7, 2012

i would rather see an administration staffed w/ people who have succeeded in the business world (diversified beyond War Inc.), rather than career politicians.

a girl can dream, eh?

stevew · Jul 7, 2012

unfortunately for this election the retard and the war criminal aren't the same person in the same party...

kidwoo · Jul 8, 2012

$tinkle said:
i would rather see an administration staffed w/ people who have succeeded in the business world (diversified beyond War Inc.), rather than career politicians.

a girl can dream, eh?

You must be the squealing greasy pig I've always pictured you as with sean geitner in the mix then.

But your larger argument worked like a fvcking champ in the last administration now dint it?

kidwoo · Jul 8, 2012

stevew said:
unfortunately for this election the retard and the war criminal aren't the same person in the same party...

I's all confuzed too.

Happy birfday beyotch. :thumb:

$tinkle · Jul 8, 2012

TheMontashu said:
Funny because they were the ones who collapsed the economy......

Funny how conservatives miss that one ALL the damn time

experienced != modeled after

IOW, which talent pool would you rather select candidates for a security detail? online gamers, or ppl who have experience killing others? with the latter, yes you'll get gang bangers, but you'll also get to select from highly trained military specialists.

kidwoo said:
You must be the squealing greasy pig I've always pictured you as with sean geitner in the mix then.

But your larger argument worked like a fvcking champ in the last administration now dint it?

dr mengele >> dr phil

norbar · Jul 8, 2012

$tinkle said:
i would rather see an administration staffed w/ people who have succeeded in the business world (diversified beyond War Inc.), rather than career politicians.

a girl can dream, eh?

Yeah the kind of successful businessmen who cut costs by fireing people? A country is not a business. If country was a business you would be responsible only to your investors (stock holders are investors hm? ) so the president would be only responsible to people who invested in his campaign and the people (since corporation is a person) who invested the biggest amount of money would have the biggest share. Therefore the country would defacto be run by the corps. The fact that right wingers either don't see it or want it is beyond belief for me.

stevew · Jul 8, 2012

kidwoo said:
Happy birfday beyotch.

my soon to be 90 year old grandmother still sends me a fvcking reminder every year.....

$tinkle · Jul 8, 2012

norbar said:
Yeah the kind of successful businessmen who cut costs by fireing people?

absofvckinglutely

e: if a free-market alternative can deliver the same goods/services for less than the cost of gov't, why would you NOT choose this path? or, if a good/service is no longer required/demanded.

while we still have need for post service, its demand is far, far, less than it once was, mostly due to e-commerce. i'm all for eliminating most of the postal service, and using these now freed funds to pay down the debt. makes sense to me.

norbar said:
A country is not a business. If country was a business you would be responsible only to your investors (stock holders are investors hm? )

it should start taking cues from one, if it has any sense of financial preservation & moral imperative. businesses are also held to account by a board of directors; countries should do likewise (most do).

what we really need is what uk & canada have - weekly questions time. but instead, we have perpetually grotesque campaigns.

norbar · Jul 8, 2012

$tinkle said:
absofvckinglutely

e: if a free-market alternative can deliver the same goods/services for less than the cost of gov't, why would you NOT choose this path? or, if a good/service is no longer required/demanded.

IF and it's also not only about cheaper. That's what makes me furious about right wingers. Their obsession with only the most basic stats. What about income inequality,accessibility and quality of service?

while we still have need for post service, its demand is far, far, less than it once was, mostly due to e-commerce. i'm all for eliminating most of the postal service, and using these now freed funds to pay down the debt. makes sense to me.

Here I agree. If the demand for the postal service is smaller, make it smaller.

it should start taking cues from one, if it has any sense of financial preservation & moral imperative. businesses are also held to account by a board of directors; countries should do likewise (most do).

what we really need is what uk & canada have - weekly questions time. but instead, we have perpetually grotesque campaigns.

So you claim it is govt. moral imperative to respond not to voters but to people who gave it the most money?

You have to notice a differance between a business and a country. A business, especially one on the stock market is one that gives the most to the investors but one also that doesn't even care about investor equality. Stock market also VERY short term reactions.
I don't want a government that only focuses on the average pay or gdp per capita because that's easily fixed by making few people really really rich. I also don't care for the government to make me the richest person possible. That's where a lot of republicans miss the point. It should care for my well being, safety, and happiness not for my potential chances to be a future billionare.

It's good that I don't live in the US and such ideas are less common here but it still annoys me as you have a tremendous influence over other countries in the world.

dante · Jul 8, 2012

$tinkle said:
absofvckinglutely

e: if a free-market alternative can deliver the same goods/services for less than the cost of gov't, why would you NOT choose this path? or, if a good/service is no longer required/demanded.

while we still have need for post service, its demand is far, far, less than it once was, mostly due to e-commerce. i'm all for eliminating most of the postal service, and using these now freed funds to pay down the debt. makes sense to me.

How much does it cost to send a letter via USPS vs FedEx/UPS/etc again?

I've yet to see a free-market alternative deliver identical/superior services at *lower* cost. Most of the time it's about providing superior services at *higher* cost, and the willingness of people to pay for it (ie, paying $2.50 to send a letter via FedEx because of the superior tracking / guaranteed delivery services offered). Free-market alternatives usually have to include a profit margin and marketing costs, expenses that aren't necessary for government-provided services.

stoney · Jul 8, 2012

dante said:
How much does it cost to send a letter via USPS vs FedEx/UPS/etc again?

I've yet to see a free-market alternative deliver identical/superior services at *lower* cost. Most of the time it's about providing superior services at *higher* cost, and the willingness of people to pay for it (ie, paying $2.50 to send a letter via FedEx because of the superior tracking / guaranteed delivery services offered). Free-market alternatives usually have to include a profit margin and marketing costs, expenses that aren't necessary for government-provided services.

USPS is subsidized though. I remember reading a stat about actual costs to mail a first class envelope at something around $3, if you took out the subsidies. While that is still cheaper than FedEx/UPS, it's still not cheap.

stevew · Jul 8, 2012

dante said:
How much does it cost to send a letter via USPS?

there's a reason i do online bill pay....

syadasti · Jul 8, 2012

The Joker said:
USPS is subsidized though.

Actually more USPS money goes to other agencies, they have a negative subsidy that helps sustain other federal programs. Any other brilliant insights you've see in chain letter spam?

More:

http://community.statesmanjournal.com/blogs/watch/2011/09/20/fact-check-did-the-internet-kill-the-postal-service/

norbar · Jul 8, 2012

dante said:
How much does it cost to send a letter via USPS vs FedEx/UPS/etc again?

I've yet to see a free-market alternative deliver identical/superior services at *lower* cost. Most of the time it's about providing superior services at *higher* cost, and the willingness of people to pay for it (ie, paying $2.50 to send a letter via FedEx because of the superior tracking / guaranteed delivery services offered). Free-market alternatives usually have to include a profit margin and marketing costs, expenses that aren't necessary for government-provided services.

As much as I think stinkie is completely mad I have to defend him here. It may not work in US but here we have 2-3 alternative private owned companies that offer the same prices as our national postal company. Not sure if it's a local thing though or if it happens in other places

DaveW · Jul 8, 2012

$tinkle said:
absofvckinglutely

e: if a free-market alternative can deliver the same goods/services for less than the cost of gov't, why would you NOT choose this path? or, if a good/service is no longer required/demanded.

Whenever an SOE (State Owned Enterprise) has been privatised costs for the end user have ALWAYS gone up.
I've yet to see a single thing run better and cheaper by the free market.

Phone
Power
Rail lines
Airlines
Prisons
Bus lines

All privatised and then run into the ground by the free market and then re nationalised and now running at an average 18% profit. (except the phone company Telecom NZ, that one with it's monopoly position and price gouging has yet to need a bail out).

stevew · Jul 8, 2012

DaveW....amtrak(gov't run/subsidised rail service)....like our postal service....rarely turns a profit.

syadasti · Jul 8, 2012

stevew said:
DaveW....amtrak(gov't run/subsidised rail service)....like our postal service....rarely turns a profit.

It would be making money if Congress didn't cripple it. No other organization has such a requirement:

from 2003 to 2006 — well into the digital age — the Postal Service reported a cumulative net income of $9.3 billion.

Not only that, its three busiest years on record were 2005, 2006 and 2007.

But then two big things happened.

1. The recession.
“The Postal Service, like every other business, has suffered during this great recession,” said Sally Davidow, spokeswoman for the American Postal Workers Union. “When the economy is good, businesses send mail. When not, they cut back.”

2. The Postal Accountability Enhancement Act.
The act passed in 2006 mandated that health coverage for postal retirees be paid 75 years into the future. To do this, Congress required the Postal Service pay $5.5 billion a year for 10 straight years.

“No other government agency or private company is required to do that. So, naturally, any business that starts off the year with a $5.5 billion bill, there’s going to be a crisis,” Davidow said. “It wasn’t having financial problems until this bill passed. The crisis was caused by this unique requirement.”

She said there would have been a $611 million surplus during the past four years if not for the new requirement.

Postal Service spokesman Dave Partenheimer agreed, saying there “would have been about a $1 billion profit over that period.”

But even with this Congress-imposed handicap, the Postal Service could cover its bills if it weren’t for another added twist, both Davidow and Partenheimer said.

The Postal Service has been overpaying into worker pension funds.

Two audits have been done. One by the Office of Inspector General pegged these overpayments at $75 billion, and an independent analysis by the Postal Regulatory Commission put them at $50 billion.

If the Postal Service were given credit for these overpayments, meaning it didn’t have to contribute into the plans until the payments were corrected, then it could handle its current fiscal problems, Davidow said.

Partenheimer said that if the Postal Service were a private sector business, it would’ve been able to scale back or stop such payments before reaching this point. But it is bound by unique laws and congressional mandates that restrict it from managing its finances like a regular business.

stevew · Jul 8, 2012

TheMontashu said:
I doubt there is enough ridership on amtrak for ANYONE to turn a profit

it's more comfortable than flying if you aren't in a hurry to get there.

stevew · Jul 8, 2012

syadasti said:
It would be making money if Congress didn't cripple it. No other organization has such a requirement:

that would be great...but i doubt it would mean that the bill i mail out a week before it's due gets there on time....

DaveW · Jul 8, 2012

stevew said:
DaveW....amtrak(gov't run/subsidised rail service)....like our postal service....rarely turns a profit.

Postal service in NZ makes a profit as far as I'm aware.

NZ rail was owned and run by an Aussie corporation and heavily subsidised.... they ran it into a rundown bankrupt fiscal hole in the ground by stripping every cent outta the operating budget by deferring maintenance and other cost cutting measures it until it was barely able to operate.
Government brought it back and while still loosing money is performing better on the finances side of things, also showing higher productivity and staff retention..... apparently training staff and maintaining equipment gets better results?!?!?! Go figure! :shocked:

One major difference I think between our public services is that New Zealand government departments are structured to run like businesses (different departments are called business units even).
SOE's are set shareholder return targets (usually 15% return on capital I think) and generally meet them without resorting to short term greed tactics that have the effect of degrading the longterm results/viability.

DaveW · Jul 8, 2012

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/financial-results/6474053/NZ-Post-profit-doubles

stevew · Jul 8, 2012

DaveW said:
Postal service in NZ makes a profit as far as I'm aware.

NZ rail was owned and run by an Aussie corporation and heavily subsidised.... they ran it into a rundown bankrupt fiscal hole in the ground by stripping every cent outta the operating budget by deferring maintenance and other cost cutting measures it until it was barely able to operate.
Government brought it back and while still loosing money is performing better on the finances side of things, also showing higher productivity and staff retention..... apparently training staff and maintaining equipment gets better results?!?!?! Go figure!

One major difference I think between our public services is that New Zealand government departments are structured to run like businesses (different departments are called business units even).
SOE's are set shareholder return targets (usually 15% return on capital I think) and generally meet them without resorting to short term greed tactics that have the effect of degrading the longterm results/viability.

i didn't say they didn't make money in NZ.

i was just saying in the US....

stevew · Jul 8, 2012

syadasti said:
It would be making money if Congress didn't cripple it. No other organization has such a requirement:

2. The Postal Accountability Enhancement Act.
The act passed in 2006 mandated that health coverage for postal retirees be paid 75 years into the future. To do this, Congress required the Postal Service pay $5.5 billion a year for 10 straight years.

deny them healthcare then?

syadasti · Jul 8, 2012

stevew said:
deny them healthcare then?

No other organization that provides healthcare coverage for its employees has that burden so what is your point again?

stevew · Jul 8, 2012

syadasti said:
No other organization that provides healthcare coverage for its employees has that burden so what is your point again?

not cripple them.....

“No other government agency or private company is required to do that. So, naturally, any business that starts off the year with a $5.5 billion bill, there’s going to be a crisis,” Davidow said. “It wasn’t having financial problems until this bill passed. The crisis was caused by this unique requirement.”

She said there would have been a $611 million surplus during the past four years if not for the new requirement.

Postal Service spokesman Dave Partenheimer agreed, saying there “would have been about a $1 billion profit over that period.”

do away with what is crippling them....

$tinkle · Jul 9, 2012

norbar said:
What about income inequality,accessibility and quality of service?

if unions are the closest thing we'll see to a "government business", do you not see how problematic it is to laud income equality as some sort of admirable attribute? for me, i'm results oriented, not title or effort oriented.

meritocracy, party of one, please

norbar said:
So you claim it is govt. moral imperative to respond not to voters but to people who gave it the most money?

nope.

norbar said:
I also don't care for the government to make me the richest person possible. That's where a lot of republicans miss the point. It should care for my well being, safety, and happiness not for my potential chances to be a future billionare.

Economists at eight European central banks studied public- and private-sector wages in 10 euro-zone countries in the period 1995-2009. In Europe as elsewhere, government workers are on average older, better-educated and more likely to have managerial roles than workers at private firms.

Yet even controlling for these factors, the authors find that government employees are paid much more than their counterparts in the rest of the economy—40%-70% more in net hourly wages in Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain, and a third more in Ireland. The gap is 20%-25% in Austria, France, Germany and Slovenia.

TheMontashu said:
Bad analogy, he picked the security detail that dipped so they could go to the strip club and have a good time, Then when the person got shot they blamed every one else for not stepping in and doing the security work for them

Sometimes I wonder how you get by with such a simple narrow minded logic.

do you post w/ a cucumber in your mouth? something is impeding your O2 sats

stevew said:
it's more comfortable than flying if you aren't in a hurry to get there.

sometimes just as fast!

by far our crown jewel for privately run "free" public xportation has got to be the gondolas @ telluride. suck on that, 3rd world!

syadasti · Jul 9, 2012

Stinkle how to you account for failures of the free market that necessitate various US government foreign policy programs mentioned in JBP's recent book review:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227323&p=3803264&viewfull=1#post3803264

$tinkle · Jul 9, 2012

syadasti said:
Stinkle how to you account for failures of the free market that necessitate various US government foreign policy programs

probably in the same manner you account for failures in US government foreign policy that necessitate a free market response, mentioned in tome after tome

Goodbye democracy, hello bank owned government

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