[swerve76]

Found this on sprfls
Yet another wheel size

New cro-mo, 22" wheel BMX from a UK rider- owned company.
2009 model product launch
This is a dealer-only introduction to the 22" concept. The bike is designed to fill the demand for a freestyle-capable bike that is more ergonomically suited to adult-sized riders.

The customers for this bike are older BMXrs or MTB riders who want a cross-over bike between freestyle mountain-biking and BMX. The iminent FactionBikeCo rider's site will explain the research and testing behind this bike.

 

[brycexlighthall]

Found this on sprfls
Yet another wheel size

New cro-mo, 22" wheel BMX from a UK rider- owned company.
2009 model product launch
This is a dealer-only introduction to the 22" concept. The bike is designed to fill the demand for a freestyle-capable bike that is more ergonomically suited to adult-sized riders.

The customers for this bike are older BMXrs or MTB riders who want a cross-over bike between freestyle mountain-biking and BMX. The iminent FactionBikeCo rider's site will explain the research and testing behind this bike.

22" is THE wheel size, many big dudes/pros have been interested in this for years. I'd love to check it out.

 

[v-digit]

Said he had beef, asked me if I had my piece
Sure do, two .22's in my shoes
Holler if you need me love i'm in the house
Roam and strollin' see what the honeys is about

 

[cmc]

damn, i've been talking about this for so long and my friends thought i was nuts--at least i feel vindicated that someone else did it. it makes perfect sense.

 

[t1maglio]

I don't get it, honestly. I ride a 24" and a 20" bike, I don't feel there is any need for something inbetween. I'm 5'11" and feel very comfortable on either.

Whats next, 21" wheels for those people that are to small for 22's but to big for 20's? That just seems silly.

 

[JGill]

LOVE to ride it

 

[sixgun_sound]

Something about that bike screams "Bicycle MotoCross." I'm a tall guy... my duece duece is feeling cramped. So... I'm into the idea.

 

[sealclubber]

that looks fvcking sweet. looks dimensioned exactly the same as a 20" but bigger. longer tubing all around, exactly what i want

 

[cornfed]

This wheel size has been tried in BMX before. '82 or '83, sometime around there.

 

[WestCoastHucker]

the stays on my cruiser look to be shorter than these and it's based on 24's and not even street geo...

 

[BikeSATORI]

the stays on my cruiser look to be shorter than these and it's based on 24's and not even street geo...

I was gonna mention something about that... hard to tell though.

Proportions are decieving they look so close to bmx. I'd like to see a pic of one set next to a similar spec'ed 20.



I think it's awesome, and I'm not even a really tall guy who felt cramped on a 20 in the first place. Props to Faction for going out on a limb and listening to the cries of a small population.
I'm sure it'll bring some hate and plenty of criticism... but wait for some big name dude to jump on this new standard and kids will follow. Just wait and watch and we'll find out what happens.

 

[BigMike]

I'm totally for it. Have something between a 20 incher and a cruiser? Hells yeah

 

[Cru Jones]

15" chain stays and 11.5" bb??? Yikes, no thanks.

Frame: 100% Cromo
21.25 toptube,
Spanish sealed b/b.
39" wheelbase
74.5 degree head tube angle
41 degree seat tube angle (misprint?)
15" rear end, 6mm dropouts
11.5 inch b/b height.
Fork: 100% 4130 cro-mo
6mm droputs, 14mm axel

 

[don]

15" chain stays and 11.5" bb??? Yikes, no thanks.

I agree, those 2 dimensions need some help, maybe it's actually a cruiser frame?

But I do agree it has a place in the bike market. You can see a bunch of different sizes for mtb - 26", 650B, 29" so why not for BMX?

I know years ago, when I was riding a cruiser and all my friends, rode 20" there was a big difference in handling. I tried a 20" at one point but it just didn't work for me. If this was out at the time - I would have given it a serious look.

You won't have to stress about certain sized bars for them either - you could easily run oine of the current crop of 20" bars. That's not really the case for a cruiser where good bars are hard to find.

 

[trust4130]

I agree, those 2 dimensions need some help, maybe it's actually a cruiser frame?

But I do agree it has a place in the bike market. You can see a bunch of different sizes for mtb - 26", 650B, 29" so why not for BMX?

I know years ago, when I was riding a cruiser and all my friends, rode 20" there was a big difference in handling. I tried a 20" at one point but it just didn't work for me. If this was out at the time - I would have given it a serious look.

You won't have to stress about certain sized bars for them either - you could easily run oine of the current crop of 20" bars. That's not really the case for a cruiser where good bars are hard to find.

Wait, the bikes designed for "older mtb / bmx guys" and a 15" rear is too long? I must be be ready for retirement then...

Don, the reason for the big difference in handling between your cruiser and friends twentys is likely due to head tube angle. Cruisers are typically slack. S&M .38's are 73 HT (w/ 15.25 - 16.0 CS, 12.0 BB), Standard 125rc's are 72 HT (w 15/4 CS, 11.625 BB). So, yeah... i don't see the geo being very wack at all. And yes, I get that the s&m and standard i referenced are "race" bikes. I like the race geo bike bikes simply because it's closer to what I came up riding - I'm not a fan of twentys with CS shorter than 15". I find that a lot of "older" guys are the same.

So, these guys have a target of older bmx / mtb crossovers, and I'm saying the last thing you want to do is alienate that target by putting them on a bike where the rear end is so far slamed into the bb that you may as well be riding a unicycle. Does the bike have a steep head angle? Check. Longish front end? Check. BB height? Well it doesn't appear to be too crazy (maybe closer to race bikes than the current trend in freestyle bikes). And then, maybe to help give the bike some stability, go with "long" chain stays? Check.

But then again, all these numbers added up still may not equate to a strong bike. But i'd sure like to see what it rides like...

And Don, really good thougts on the handle bar issue!

 

[swerve76]

The frame geometry definately seems more race/trails. Could probably throw a wheel on a macneil deuce deuce and have slightly better numbers..

 

[don]

trust - the way you point it out - it makes very good sense. I was just comparing that 22"ers numbers to my USB 24" which has some really good geometry for this OM.

I do think the bike looks great and I think there definitely is a rider base for this - they have bigger skateboards for OS skaters why not for BMX'ers.

 

[Cru Jones]

Seems to me something like 14.25" stays and a 12" bb would feel a lot better. The majority of the feeling of stability on bigger wheels comes from the bigger wheels. With the back end that long and low it'd probably feel like trying to pop a wheelie on a beach cruiser.

And I saw somewhere that this was a "street" designed frame, even though it seems to have a more racing oriented geo. Could you even race this thing? It probably wouldn't be allowed in any class.

 

[trust4130]

Yep, I with you don. I get the comparison of that bike relative to a usb 24 or my fall guy may at first glance seem out of line, but I'd venture that they're just too very different for a adequate comparison. Specifically the ht angles are in completely different stratospheres. Slackish ht geo can compensate somewhat for having a (relatively) short rear end. Landing in a manual down a backside on my FG was a million times easier than on a 20 with a similarlly short rear end - part of that is the balance point being affected by the ht (and biggerer wheels, etc, but you get the point).

I don't see myself buying this bike, but again, i'd just love to see how something different rides.

 

[trust4130]

Seems to me something like 14.25" stays and a 12" bb would feel a lot better. The majority of the feeling of stability on bigger wheels comes from the bigger wheels. With the back end that long and low it'd probably feel like trying to pop a wheelie on a beach cruiser.

And I saw somewhere that this was a "street" designed frame, even though it seems to have a more racing oriented geo. Could you even race this thing? It probably wouldn't be allowed in any class.

Yeah, that's exactly how bikes with 15" rear ends feel - like beach cruisers... So shorter is better how, and why? I guess what I'm saying is that the stability you talking about is partly due to bigger wheels but a huge part of that (for usb's, fall guys, and the like) is the slack ht angles. That is a gigantic part of the stability equation. Hell, I remember bitd going from a 73 degree s&m dirt bike to a 74.5 degree standard and being very surprised. Remember, this bike has a 74.5 degree ht angle - not a 71ish like suspension 24s or 72ish like bmx cruisers. Thats a big jump. Throw a slammed rear end on a frame with with a steep ht and I'd hypothesize (yep, I'll admit its really a guess...) that it won't have the improved ride (stability) that their target group may be after. Also, just because it's a "Street" bike doesn't mean a that the geo must therefore be compact like a 20. Again, target = old bmx guys and crossover mtbers right? Just because a bike has "Street" geometry doesn't mean that it's a better fit for me or my "race" geo. Race geo's the way it is for stability and putting down power - but it doesn't mean that it only works for racing. I know more than a few old school riders rockin' frames simply because of their streched geo. This whole "street" geo was the birth of kids doing a bunch of flip/whip/triks that a lot of older bmx guys have zero interest in.

 

[Cru Jones]

Better how, and why? I guess what I'm saying is that the stability you talking about is partly due to bigger wheels but a huge part of that (for usb's, fall guys, and the like) is the slack ht angles. That is a gigantic part of the stability equation. Hell, I remember bitd going from a 73 degree s&m dirt bike to a 74.5 degree standard and being very surprised. Remember, this bike has a 74.5 degree ht angle - not a 71ish like suspension 24s or 72ish like bmx cruisers. Thats a big jump. Throw a slammed rear end on a frame with with a steep ht and I'd hypothesize (yep, I'll admit it, but) that it won't have the improved ride (stability) that their target group may be after.

Better pop, easier to hop and to pull up on. Yeah, I know what you're saying with the head tube angle being that steep. The longer, lower back end might make it more stable when you're just cruising along, but I just think it would feel awful coming off of jumps or trying to bunny hop that thing. 14" stays are pretty long by bmx standards these days and it really makes no sense to me why you would go for a lower bb than most 20" frames? Look at all the freestyle 24s and 26s, they all have higher bbs than say a "normal" 11.8" bmx bb. I just think something closer to 14.25, 12, 74 would be dialed. But, who knows? Nobody except those guys have ever ridden one.

Edit: I'm also close to being an "older" guy who rides. Actually, when I first went back to 20" after being off of them for a few years, I went with a 21.25, 14.25, 11.5 because of the reasons you're talking about. Recently switched to 21, 14, 11.8 and it's really amazing how much better it feels to me. But, whatever works for you.

 

[trust4130]

I'm pretty much with you cru, I understand your points. The point I'm making is that if a stable ride, but with steepish steering geo, is part of the ride characteristic equation, your options for increasing stability are longer rear end and a slightly dropped bb ht.

How cool would it be to have a fleet of bike built with these varying geos, and then have them tested in a double blind experiment? Then we'd really see what it is that we "like", not just what we think we should. Any venture on how good humans are in telling subtle geometry differences under such circumstances? If you guessed basically "worthless" your're a lot closer to the truth the other end of the spectrum - but don't take my word for it, it reflects those of an MIT professor and author of Bicycling Science (it related to road bikes, but think about it...).

 

[Cru Jones]

How cool would it be to have a fleet of bike built with these varying geos, and then have them tested in a double blind experiment? Then we'd really see what it is that we "like", not just what we think we should. Any venture on how good humans are in telling subtle geometry differences under such circumstances? If you guessed basically "worthless" your're a lot closer to the truth the other end of the spectrum - but don't take my word for it, it reflects those of an MIT professor and author of Bicycling Science (it related to road bikes, but think about it...).

Haha. That would be sweet. I could really use that for this little project that I'm working on right now. Of course, I think I'd be good at telling a difference... haha. But, I also wonder if people of similar size could reach a consensus on what "felt best" for say like a 20" frame. Doubt it.

 

[trust4130]

Haha. That would be sweet. I could really use that for this little project that I'm working on right now. Of course, I think I'd be good at telling a difference... haha. But, I also wonder if people of similar size could reach a consensus on what "felt best" for say like a 20" frame. Doubt it.

Exactly, right? It'd be awesome just to learn about yourself! I generally thought that I would be good at telling differences too, based on some of my past experiences. I mean, who of us out there hasn't taken out or added a link of chain from his (or her, hehe) bike, hopped on it, and went "holy F%#K!" It's only about a 1/4 of an inch, but man, the change is there. Definitely the same thing going from one frame to another (like I mentioned when I went from a S&M DB to a Standard Trail Boss). "Damn, what the hell happened?" was one of several things going thru my mind. So, yeah, I'd say there may be some tell-tale signs, but where darkness clouds the force (empire strikes back was on last night and I'm a week out of ACL surgery, sue me...) is what those changes mean to said rider, good, bad or even indifferent, as they relate to enhancing the overall feel or performance. That's where things get completely vague. Does a shorter cs really give real world increases in so called "pop"? Can you bunnyhop 36" on a 15" cs, but 38" on a 14" cs? Hmm... For me, shorter chains stays perhaps exposed some weakness in me or my riding, cause I couldn't manual like I wanted to. On longer cs's I could go till my brake cable snapped. /jk/

Oh, and agreed as far as reaching a consensus between riders - it'll never happen. Probably shouldn't too.

edit: also, let me add that I suspect that the areas where riders perceptions are most suspect do not appear to be in picking up on large geometric differences, but in discerning relative stiffness and weight changes for a given frame layout, or much smaller geometric changes... yadayada... I've got to nap now.

 

[newrider3]

The page also says they're working on a 22" race bike. I don't see how they would swing that since the rulebook says 20" and under is regular classes and 24" and over is cruiser.

 

[jasride]

The page also says they're working on a 22" race bike. I don't see how they would swing that since the rulebook says 20" and under is regular classes and 24" and over is cruiser.

I foresee in the near future that the rule book will be changed. 22's might even have their own class. It could be 20" with its own, 22" with its own and even cruiser AND 26" with there own respectively. no way, its not gonna happen, it can't.

 

[WestCoastHucker]

i wouldn't notice the difference at all, unless it was something drastic...

 

[Bicyclist]

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174430

 

[cmc]

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174430

word. i knew that was back there somewhere in the archives.

 

[don]

The page also says they're working on a 22" race bike. I don't see how they would swing that since the rulebook says 20" and under is regular classes and 24" and over is cruiser.

I think that BMX moto counts have gotten lower and lower over the years so they might not even care as long as someone is paying to race. I can't tell for certain as it's not next to a 20" bike, but that 22" looks like it could fool quite a few local race officials.

 

[don]

Exactly, right? It'd be awesome just to learn about yourself! I generally thought that I would be good at telling differences too, based on some of my past experiences. I mean, who of us out there hasn't taken out or added a link of chain from his (or her, hehe) bike, hopped on it, and went "holy F%#K!" It's only about a 1/4 of an inch, but man, the change is there. Definitely the same thing going from one frame to another (like I mentioned when I went from a S&M DB to a Standard Trail Boss). "Damn, what the hell happened?" was one of several things going thru my mind. So, yeah, I'd say there may be some tell-tale signs, but where darkness clouds the force (empire strikes back was on last night and I'm a week out of ACL surgery, sue me...) is what those changes mean to said rider, good, bad or even indifferent, as they relate to enhancing the overall feel or performance. That's where things get completely vague. Does a shorter cs really give real world increases in so called "pop"? Can you bunnyhop 36" on a 15" cs, but 38" on a 14" cs? Hmm... For me, shorter chains stays perhaps exposed some weakness in me or my riding, cause I couldn't manual like I wanted to. On longer cs's I could go till my brake cable snapped. /jk/

Oh, and agreed as far as reaching a consensus between riders - it'll never happen. Probably shouldn't too.

edit: also, let me add that I suspect that the areas where riders perceptions are most suspect do not appear to be in picking up on large geometric differences, but in discerning relative stiffness and weight changes for a given frame layout, or much smaller geometric changes... yadayada... I've got to nap now.

Damn, Trust - you are thinking too much about it - glad I'm not the only one

I've changed small parts - like a stem or tires with one tour up the street and back - put the old one back on. I know I could get used to it but do I want to? Forks and bars are tough too - it's hard for me to change them out. And I have a couple backups for each.

Interesting about the different setup or geometry on performance. I'm pretty sure I could tell small changes back to back - but I need any advantage possible even if it is only in my head.

I also think a good rider can do whatever they want on whatever they ride (to a certain point of course). Look at the shiit Stu Thomson did on those tiny RedLines w/ the TT and chainstay length close to being the same.

 

[cmc]

where are they getting the 22" tires ? they're making rims themselves ? gimme the damn number to Taiwan !

 

[trust4130]

Damn, Trust - you are thinking too much about it - glad I'm not the only one

I also think a good rider can do whatever they want on whatever they ride (to a certain point of course). Look at the shiit Stu Thomson did on those tiny RedLines w/ the TT and chainstay length close to being the same.

You're right, I am thinking too much - right now I'm off of work due to knee surgery and don't have a much else to do! I've also kidda derailled the thread a bit, so appologies around.

By the way, speaking of thread derails, I saw on another web site that Stompin' Stu Thomson raced the NBL grands - he won the 50 -54 cruiser class!

Back on topic - is there a place in the bike world for 22" wheeled bikes? Ehh, why the heck not. I mean, we've got frickin' mountain bikes riding at skate parks and trials... \its a joke people\

 

[Talbo]

This bike should have been invented years ago before we got stuck with those tiny bikes for grown up riders! I hope more companies include 22s in their ranges.

 

[jonKranked]

I'm a fully grown adult and love my 20". Does this mean I wouldn't like a 22"? No, it doesn't. I wouldn't mind trying a 22" if someone rolled into the park on one, but then again if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[cmc]

Faction has a new frame for their 22" wheels.... No details on the geo are posted yet... but I hope they shortened up the cs to 14" and lengthened the tt to 22" !!

 

[S4Sean]

Faction has a new frame for their 22" wheels.... No details on the geo are posted yet... but I hope they shortened up the cs to 14" and lengthened the tt to 22" !!

that looks like it could be a little more fun than the other geo.
But who knows until you ride it.

 

[Sonic Reducer]

for racing i would imagine they put 22" in cruiser.
that faction looks like a fun bike.