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Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by Pesqueeb, Aug 16, 2009.
I find myself in the sad position of having to agree.
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Can we now talk about health insurance / care reform that does not involve wholesale takeover by the Federal Government? This discussion does not have to be the polar opposite either. I hope that the public "option" is not our only option.
"The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse." --James Madison
We can talk about it all day. Any ideas? I doubt it, since you don't seem to be aware that Obama hasn't been talking about wholesale takeover of health care by the Federal Government at any time.
Maybe we can look at the real world and see what other countries do? Maybe there are ones out there that pay less for healthcare and have better incomes? Just a thought...
they seem to not know any other way. look at the auto industry and finance industry.
i guess our government is in the business business.
Please. None of the banks are being run by the government. Neither are the auto companies or airlines.
Tell me you're not making the case that the finance industry was nationalized...
Also the finance industry is a result of lack of regulation - the free market failed and helped push the auto industry over in a perfect storm. The fundamentals of the economy were not strong and a vast majority of economists slammed the Bush administration for its stupidity back in 2003. You have to economic theory based in economics just like you need a science policy/advisor based in science.
Its a massive cleanup of the last administration, not the present. Doing nothing would business as usual. Its true that lobbies and politics are a big portion - you will pay more for health now that you are too stupid to check in to the issue for yourself. The American people won't see much if any justice against prior administration officials who violated numerous laws without any question and wasted money in a multi trillion dollar war they started with prior known proven fabrications. Bravo you mindless jackasses, way to keep your eye on the prize
Next lets bitch about illegal immigration which is concretely shown to cause a economic surplus. We don't want that do we No we just want to hear nutjobs (many of which are welfare) bitching about the major drain immigrants are causing with nothing to back up what they saying other than useless entertainment media sources.
While I fall firmly on the government intervention side, the above is a misconception. The finance industry failed as the result of failing to enforce EXISTING regulation. After stabilization, we don't need new regulation, we just need real oversight and enforcement of the rules that were already there.
The problem was the Fed and SEC being in bed with private interests.
On healthcare, I've posted several times why this is a unique situation and if we're accepting the premise that we, as a society aren't going to let people die, than the private option doesn't work. From the opposition, I only see vague conceptual arguments about government power and bureacracy and personal responsibility... I have yet to see anything that describes specific problems or solutions, or demonstrates an understanding of:
a) how healthcare in America actually currently functions
b) what is actually in the current healthcare bill
To Pasqueeb, I do think healthcare reform in the US is on it's deathbed. I don't put nearly the blame on Obama that your article does. That sounded like a lot of anger from the typical breath-holders and foot-stompers.
Healthcare reform is so punk rock.
If the existing rules aren't enforced, that is lack of regulation as I said. I didn't say lack of or in need of new regulations.
Thats it. I'm going back to voodoo and witch-doctors.
So... we likely will never such reforms... or at least not in the near future. If not now, I dont see when the Dems will have this much power again.
I see a day, far beyond our lifetimes, when a new genetically engineered creature emerges from stem cells.
A democrat with a pair of testicles.
It will take collapse. Literally, it will only happen when people feel very direct financial/lifestyle pain and become so angry they will no longer foot the bills of 90-year-old baby boomers who want $500k in ICU care (40 percent of Medicare dollars cover care for people in the last month) , and obese diabetics who refuse to address their lifestyles (est. $150B cost to the US), because those issues break through the cloud of ideological (and irrelevent) BS about private vs. public and just make people emotionally angry. Enough so that they'll start chucking the fat and old under the bus.
Yeah, until we get a Dem that's willing to confront one of these assh***s with an assault rifle of their own, at one of their own rallies and a t-shirt that says " peace is for pvssies and I eat it daily " we might not see reform going anywhere.
And thats small compared to cardiovascular disease which kills about 1.5 million according to the CDC. $500B+ cost to healthcare - 1/4 of the total cost. That does not include costs from other major health problems related to obesity (diabetes as you mentioned). Lifestyle changes would be huge since its not a drastic change to make a significant difference.
Beside healthcare they could place some regulations on the food industry so they aren't severely biasing profits over quality and health. Would you like to wash that down with some fine peanut butter and peppers?
If you eat healthy and exercise your entire life, are you just supposed to die suddenly with no long term costs for care? Or is it still just the same, drawn out expensive process, only it starts later?
Cause if that's the case... why do I care that people are getting fat and dying young?
That view works with some diseases and makes sense, but not others. And who the hell is going put their weight behind it? Prevention rather than treatment after the fact has saved other countries money.
The food industry affects everyone since most companies are controlled by conglomerates these days and its time consuming and/or expensive to avoid their influence often. Why should poor people be condemned to be their on-going cost cutting food science experiment?
To be clear, I'm not advocating cutting the obese and dying out of healthcare. I'm saying that the people are going to get real selfish, real fast, when the **** hits the fan and we're better off figuring out a way to get ahead of that event, than letting the angry lynch mob cut off the most expensive 10% (syadasti, totally agree that includes other diseases besides obesity and diabetes... I generally mean "complications from lifestyle choices rather than genetics").
IMO, the end-of-life counseling was one of the more important points (now gone) from Obama's plan, and I also think it is critical to introduce legislation/regulation that legalizes incentives for compliance and lifestyle. Right now that would be discrimination, but I'm convinced there is a way to fairly incentivize:
a) at minimum, compliance with treatment plans and regular check-ups, and,
b) at best, healthier lifestyle choices
...without discriminating against people who have genetic predispositions to illness.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said, except about placing blame on Obama. Maybe he should have thrown some weight around, spent some of that political capital. I recognize that too much presidential involvement is part of what killed health care in 1993. Does he deserve all of the blame? No, of course not, maybe half. The rest of the blame belongs on congress. I mean, if it cant be done now, when? When the fvck are we ever going to be in a position like this again to get real reform pushed through? Maybe I am a breath holding foot stomper, because I am pissed. Were really not going to get this done because the democrats can't sack up and tell the tinfoil hat crowd to go fvck themselves? I hate myself for saying it, but if Bush had wanted to do it he'd of shoved it right up our asses just like the "patriot" act, domestic wire taps, torture and the Iraqi war. And you know what? The Democrats laid down and let all that bullsh!t roll right over them too. Kidwoo is right, how many centuries do we have to wait for a democrat thats got a pair? Fvck!
Is it time to go yet? I need a beer.
Wait, that's actually being stricken?
Jesus fvcking christ....
This is your democratic party: Too god damn lazy to actually explain something to a bunch of morons that will be beneficial......so just get rid of it so they shut up.
This is why nobody outside of the democrats in congress themselves actually claims to be a democrat. It's f*cking embarrassing.
It really is atrocious. This is literally something that everyone (including insurers and AMA) except pharma can agree is a good thing, but because it could be distorted to derail the rest of the effort, the lobbies did. Interestingly it was also something in the 2003 healthcare reform bill introduced by the GOP.
Any two syllable word could be misinterpreted by the idiots bitching about this. How can anyone remove a provision that wasn't even being protested?
Fvck you grassley, and fvck all you other congressional half-wits.
Screw it. You know that part in the bill about pre-existing conditions no longer providing cause for recidivism?
I'm going to start saying that means the government is introducing cancer into your children's drinking water. You know.....the cancer virus. The government is trying to give your children cancer with this new bill. That's right.
Cheer up everyone. I read this when I got home and it improved my mood substantially.
Hopefully he loses his show
ConAgra - one of the world's largest polluters and arguably the worst corporate criminal in history pulled their advertising on Glen Beck because he's being racist.
Maybe DeBeers will too
I cant wait for the tinfoil hat back lash about how this is all somehow concocted by Obama and his socialist agenda. Or will they blame ACORN?
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That was great!
All The Presidents Zombies
Sounds like it's going to stand. It may be heavily flawed, but it's a step in the right direction IMO. Maybe one day we will get to a single-payer system.
Ha! Suck a bag of SCOTUS dicks Tea-baggers!
if you can't get it through the front door...try the servants entrance.
so are the rich white people still paying for it?
Huh, 5-4 decision with Roberts casting the deciding vote.... *Very* interesting.
The wailing and gnashing of teeth on the WSJ comments section is hysterical.
Death Panel selection party @ Casa De Pesqueeb 1830! Socialist manifesto reading starts at 1900 followed by Margaritas and homosexual agenda until we run out of tequila or Focus on the Family shows up with the cops.