[MikeD]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hfZBulx_H-prruRU2Clj0dIgUOww

GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — A University of Florida student was Tasered and arrested after trying to ask U.S. Senator John Kerry about the 2004 election and other subjects during a campus forum.

Videos of the incident posted on several Web sites show officers pulling Andrew Meyer, 21, away from the microphone after he asks Kerry about impeaching President Bush and whether he and Bush were both members of the secret society Skull and Bones at Yale University.

"He apparently asked several questions — he went on for quite awhile — then he was asked to stop," university spokesman Steve Orlando said. "He had used his allotted time. His microphone was cut off, then he became upset."

As two officers take Meyer by the arms, Kerry, D-Mass., is heard to say, "That's alright, let me answer his question." Audience members applaud, and Meyer struggles to escape for several seconds as up to four officers try to remove him from the room.

Meyer screams for help and asks "What did I do?" as he tries to break away from officers. He is forced to the ground and officers order him to stop resisting. Meyer says he will walk out if the officers let him go.

As Kerry tells the audience he will answer the student's "very important question," Meyer struggles on the ground and yells at the officers to release him, crying out, "Don't Tase me, bro," just before he is Tasered. He is then led from the room, screaming, "What did I do?"

Meyer was charged with resisting an officer and disturbing the peace, according to Alachua County jail records. No bond had been set. Meyer was scheduled to appear in court Tuesday morning, a jail official said.

It was not known if Meyer had an attorney.

Orlando said university police would conduct an internal investigation.

"The police department does have a standard procedure for when they use force, including when they use a Taser," Orlando said. "That is what the internal investigation would address — whether the proper procedures were followed, whether the officers acted appropriately."
---------------------

I'm sure it's on YouTube or something. (Ed:

, but I haven't watched this version, just saw one on the morning news which gave a pretty inconclusive view)

Well, IF the police decided to interfere with the event and remove the guy before University security asked the guy to sit down or leave, they're in the wrong...police have no authority to interfere with someone's first amendment right, especially on a private venue. However, the first amendment doesn't apply to private conduct, so if the venue/event staff or security asked him to stop speaking or sit down and he didn't, they can request that the police remove him.

Whether tasering was appropriate or not...well, tasering is used to overcome active resistance, so regardless of what he's yelling, if he's struggling against the police, they can taser him. But I think that's the minor part of the story...I want to know the full fact pattern that led to the police acting.

Either way, minor deal as far as I'm concerned, but I thought the PaWN would like another bacon fight.

MD

 

[narlus]

imagine if you tried to ask a question of Dick Cheney.

 

[ulockjustice]

w00t w00t UFPD. im kind of torn on this one. from watching the video is obvious the dude is being a total jackass, and pretty much had it coming, but it seems like they couldve just escorted him outside at least. not entirely sure the use of the tazer was needed, but he was being a total prick.

i wasnt at the event, but from talking to people who were there, he apparently was being disruptive during the event, then as time was out for questioning etc at the end of the event, he pushed his way to the front of the line for the mic, and proceeded to ask several long rambling questions. the cops were already on him at this point for being a douche previously and disrupting the event. They finally cut off his mic since time was up before he even started talking, but Kerry said hed answer one more question.

 

[FrontRangeDH]

Yeah, how can 6 rent a cops not control one student? its clear they have him pinned down, it seems they tazer him for no apparent reason. Granted he was being a punk, they removed his freedom of speech and basically removed him from the building for it, he resisted and they arrested him, but the tazering was a little overboard. Gotta love cops on a power trip. At least he has a bunch of witnesses and a video to help him with a law suit for excessive force.

 

[Spero]

Obviously the cops were undercover secret service trying to keep the 2004 election fraud under wraps.

 

[MikeD]

Huh. I frankly have no idea what the constitutional standard is for university police at a public school. Normally the lines between private and government conduct are pretty clear, but this is interesting. I'm sure there's plenty of precedent, seeing as colleges must face these issues all the time, but I dunno what they are. Maybe Manimal knows...?

 

[OrthoPT]

w00t w00t UFPD. im kind of torn on this one. from watching the video is obvious the dude is being a total jackass, and pretty much had it coming, but it seems like they couldve just escorted him outside at least. not entirely sure the use of the tazer was needed, but he was being a total prick.

i wasnt at the event, but from talking to people who were there, he apparently was being disruptive during the event, then as time was out for questioning etc at the end of the event, he pushed his way to the front of the line for the mic, and proceeded to ask several long rambling questions. the cops were already on him at this point for being a douche previously and disrupting the event. They finally cut off his mic since time was up before he even started talking, but Kerry said hed answer one more question.

 

[Spero]

Huh. I frankly have no idea what the constitutional standard is for university police at a public school. Normally the lines between private and government conduct are pretty clear, but this is interesting. I'm sure there's plenty of precedent, seeing as colleges must face these issues all the time, but I dunno what they are. Maybe Manimal knows...?

From reading a bit on other school system police forces (Cali, Indiana and Arizona), they seem to be held to the same standards as normal police as far as job pre-requisites and conduct. I can't find much on the 'chain of command' or who they answer to directly.

 

[MikeD]

From reading a bit on other school system police forces (Cali, Indiana and Arizona), they seem to be held to the same standards as normal police as far as job pre-requisites and conduct. I can't find much on the 'chain of command' or who they answer to directly.

That's not it...it's not conduct, it's whether they represent the government or a private entity vis a vis the Bill of Rights. A private entity can restrict you any way it wants within its sphere, where the government can't restrict any of your rights without due process.

 

[ulockjustice]

also, depending which video you watch (the cnn one was edited pretty heavily) pretty much everyone in the auditorium starts clapping when the police start to escort him out, which should be a good indicator of what a jack@ss he was being during the event. he still prob shouldnt have been tazered, but its tough to tell whats going on when hes pinned down by the 5-0.

 

[Spero]

That's not it...it's not conduct, it's whether they represent the government or a private entity vis a vis the Bill of Rights. A private entity can restrict you any way it wants within its sphere, where the government can't restrict any of your rights without due process.

Well, if a state or city government sets a code of conduct for a job and pays the salary on said job, wouldn't that mean they answer to that entity?

 

[MikeD]

Well, if a state or city government sets a code of conduct for a job and pays the salary on said job, wouldn't that mean they answer to that entity?

Wow, hadn't considered that...

I was looking for examples of legal precedent where public servants, in this case university police, have to draw the dividing line between someone's rights and any public disturbance they're causing. There has to be one, otherwise a public school simply couldn't reasonably control its own environment.

I guess it's not really any different than what normal police do every day...it's just that my knowledge is about the Federal government, not what state/local officials are empowered by statute to do, and the Feds don't deal with stuff like this, even the Secret Service and the like. They let venue security and locals deal with it unless there's an actual threat to their protected party. But everyone still has to act within Constitutional bounds.

 

[RenegadeRick]

Here is a little better YouTube of the event.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

You can see that as the cops are grabbing him, Kerry says, "It's all right. Let me answer his question." You can also see his clear resistance.

My question is why are they grabbing him in the first place? All he did was ask a few questions, and Kerry was agreeing to answer them. The kid may have been an ass, but he did nothing violent or aggressive until the police put their hands on HIM.

 

[Spero]

Wow, hadn't considered that...

I was looking for examples of legal precedent where public servants, in this case university police, have to draw the dividing line between someone's rights and any public disturbance they're causing. There has to be one, otherwise a public school simply couldn't reasonably control its own environment.

I guess it's not really any different than what normal police do every day...it's just that my knowledge is about the Federal government, not what state/local officials are empowered by statute to do, and the Feds don't deal with stuff like this, even the Secret Service and the like. They let venue security and locals deal with it unless there's an actual threat to their protected party. But everyone still has to act within Constitutional bounds.

I guess I didn't fully understand you were looking for established legal cases. As far as state and local officials are concerned, and I'm sure you know this already, laws vary so much from state to state and even more so on down to the city level statutes that little besides our basic rights pass on from the federal gov't...or so I think.

 

[ire]

I was looking for examples of legal precedent where public servants, in this case university police, have to draw the dividing line between someone's rights and any public disturbance they're causing.

Isn't the issue not so much the persons rights as the level of force used?

 

[Spero]

Isn't the issue not so much the persons rights as the level of force used?

I think he's trying to establish whether or not the cops even had the right to pull him off the stage in the first place.

 

[ire]

I think he's trying to establish whether or not the cops even had the right to pull him off the stage in the first place.

aaahhh, I'll have to watch the video when I get home (damn firewall).

 

[Silver]

The guy is obviously an asshole.

Now, having said that, it appears that they didn't want to arrest him, but instead just tried to pick him up and carry him out. Why didn't they just arrest him? My guess is that they knew they didn't have any cause to.

And the tasering seemed out of line to me. The cops clearly had physical control of the situation, they had guys sitting on his legs, and he's not flailing his arms around...looks to me like they used the taser because he wouldn't shut up. The kid's going to be rich.

 

[manimal]

Isn't the issue not so much the persons rights as the level of force used?

a tazer is not very high up on the use of force model. it is less damaging than pepper spray but much more effective. it leaves no lasting physical damage (unlike pepper spray that makes my allergies go nuts for several days).
i don't understand why people freak out when someone is tazered. have you ever tried to just "carry out" someone who is actively resisting? it isn't as easy at it looks and often ends in injury to the officer. why risk the injury when you can gain compliance through a tool that doesn't injure the subject you are trying to control.

i really, really wish that all branches of law enforcement would go on strike for one week so that the general public would have a better understanding of why we have to do what we do.

mike - campus police here in NC are certified by the state just as any other LEO. it's just that their jurisdiction is that campus. it's no different than what i do...i have jurisdiction in the city that pays me but i can only have enforcement powers in another jurisdiction if the chief/sheriff make a request.

 

[MikeD]

mike - campus police here in NC are certified by the state just as any other LEO. it's just that their jurisdiction is that campus. it's no different than what i do...i have jurisdiction in the city that pays me but i can only have enforcement powers in another jurisdiction if the chief/sheriff make a request.

Yeah, but my question is when such police can take action, constitutionally, in a venue. Feds can't unless the venue staff or security request it and 1) there's a threat to public safety or 2) the Feds are present in a protective role and the disturbance threatens the protectee with harm (unlikely in this scenario) or embarassment (quite likely). Feds usually let private security and/or local police handle the situation unless it gets dangerous.

I'm just wondering how that plays out with college environments/cops, since they are hovering on a line where the may be considered to be violating an individual's right to free speech by removing him from a venue. Private guards don't have any concerns like this, but cops do, since they're bound by the Constitution. (Which, again, doesn't apply to private conduct.)

There's obviously a line and rules that govern this; I'm just not familiar with them.

(btw, Get with me off-line if you want more info on the stuff we emailed about earlier...I think I left you hanging...)

 

[RenegadeRick]

a tazer is not very high up on the use of force model. it is less damaging than pepper spray but much more effective. it leaves no lasting physical damage (unlike pepper spray that makes my allergies go nuts for several days).
i don't understand why people freak out when someone is tazered.

Because people can die.

 

[MikeD]

Because people can die.

They can die from lots of other non/less-lethal uses-of-force as well, through accident or bad luck. When you get knocked to the ground by a baton or a fist, you can hit your head and die from it, just as if you hit your head and died from being dropped with a taser. You can have an allegric reaction to pepper spray. You can try and duck a police baton and get hit in the temple. **** happens.

Don't want to chance that? Be physically compliant with police orders. This guy WAS NOT compliant...I think it's obvious by the fact that 5 of them were holding him down and he was still struggling against them. He yelled about how badly he was being treated and how they didn't need to treat him that way, but he didn't follow instructions or walk willingly out when ordered to. If he had, a cop might have just held his elbow as he walked (and possibly yelled whatever he wanted to, so long as he was physically going along), rather than him being dragged, then dog-piled.

 

[manimal]

Because people can die.

yes, people can die. but it's much safer than the alternative, ie; getting beat down with a baton.

i'll tell you what, i'll send an irate college kid your way and you have to subdue him in the quickest, safest way possible. i'll film the whole thing and critique everything you do. at about the 6 minute mark, when you're out of breath and scared to death, i'll throw you a taser and see if you feel like ending the struggle with a quick jolt, the effects of which will fade long before you catch your breath after finishing your job.

i love how everyone can armchair quarterback use of force incidents but if faced with having to do the job would probably crap their pants. "i would have just shot him in the leg" "i would have tackled him" "that cop should mind his own business"
well, you can't have your cake.........
there have to be consequences to testing the law. there is no point in having law ENFORCEMENT if there is not bite to the bark.

 

[blue]

I don't know if they did or not, but it seems like in a lot of these excessive force cases the problem could've been rectified by the police explaining what the offending party was doing wrong and why they needed to leave...It's obvious dude was a jackass, but to be hauled out and subsequently tased/arrested for being one is unacceptable. It seems that with the advent of the "safe" taser, the police motto has become "Shock 'em first, ask questions later".

What should be said is not "A taser is less dangerous than a spray/baton/etc", but "Why was it necessary to use violent force to begin with?"

 

[ohio]

"i would have just shot him in the leg" "i would have tackled him" "that cop should mind his own business"

This is nothing that a deft tickle with a feather duster couldn't have sorted out.

 

[RenegadeRick]

...but "Why was it necessary to use violent force to begin with?"

Amen!

Then again, I can understand the police position on this one. After all, he was carrying a book. Books can lead to reading and reading can lead to thinking.

We can't have thinking in America™. That could lead to opposition to the war.

 

[MikeD]

The video doesn't show anything that led up to the event. Plus, do you really think the guy didn't understand what the police wanted him to do?

The police didn't do anything particularly violent until the subject started resisting them...even then, they didn't even strike him.

I'd challenge many of you who want to apply the "talk it out" solution to situations outside the Internet. I do that all the time...I'm sure most of Manimal's contacts with the public are also resolved without a hand being laid...and you know what? No one films that, or at least bothers to post it to YouTube. They only post things that people will want to yap about afterward.

 

[OrthoPT]

The video doesn't show anything that lead up to the event. Plus, do you really think the guy didn't understand what the police wanted him to do?

The police didn't do anything particularly violent until the subject started resisting them...even then, they didn't even strike him.

I'd challenge many of you who want to apply the "talk it out" solution to situations outside the Internet. I do that all the time...I'm sure most of Manimal's contacts with the public are also resolved without a hand being laid...and you know what? No one films that, or at least bothers to post it to YouTube. They only post things that people will want to yap about afterward.

AMEN.

 

[N8 v2.0]

another dumbass get tazered... bfd.

 

[MikeD]

Well, my final verdict...since Kerry wanted to answer, they should have just let Kerry manage the answer/situation unless it got further out of hand, thus and averting this whole mess. It was really Kerry's call, and unless there's a physical threat to him or the public, security should pay attention to his desires in any social situation.

However, the police's actions were presumably still legal because the guy was causing a disturbance, in legal terms, by the time they laid hands on him, after warning him. And every locality has rules on the book enabling police to take control of disturbances. Everything that the police did thereafter was 100% right, as well. No matter what the guy was yelling, he wasn't complying with the police, who used restraint.

So it was dumb, but legal, in my opinion.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Well, my final verdict...since Kerry wanted to answer, they should have just let Kerry manage the answer/situation unless it got further out of hand, thus and averting this whole mess. It was really Kerry's call, and unless there's a physical threat to him or the public, security should pay attention to his desires in any social situation.

However, the police's actions were presumably still legal because the guy was causing a disturbance, in legal terms, by the time they laid hands on him, after warning him. And every locality has rules on the book enabling police to take control of disturbances. Everything that the police did thereafter was 100% right, as well. No matter what the guy was yelling, he wasn't complying with the police, who used restraint.

So it was dumb, but legal, in my opinion.

the worse that happens is the dumbass gets 15 min of fame on youtube

 

[BMXman]

oh great another tazer issue that will get blown out of proportion...it's really so simple resist and pay the price...it's not exactly rocket science!...D

Edit: Once again Manimal telling it like it is!!!

 

[valve bouncer]

I'm glad "being an annoying prick" wasn't reason enough to get tasered when I was young or I'd be nicknamed Sparky know

 

[bohorec]

I'm sure Taser-happy police officers use the weapon on everyone from disturbed children to old men and women who don’t follow orders fast enough just because they want to share joy of Taser they have discovered during training:

http://www.rescuehumor.com/video/TASER_to_Balls.htm

 

[valve bouncer]

I'm sure Taser-happy police officers use the weapon on everyone from disturbed children to old men and women who don’t follow orders fast enough just because they want to share joy of Taser they have discovered during training:

http://www.rescuehumor.com/video/TASER_to_Balls.htm

Awesome, helluva good shot to be able to hit a cop in the balls. oster_oops:

 

[RenegadeRick]

Well, my final verdict...since Kerry wanted to answer, they should have just let Kerry manage the answer/situation unless it got further out of hand, thus and averting this whole mess. It was really Kerry's call, and unless there's a physical threat to him or the public, security should pay attention to his desires in any social situation.

However, the police's actions were presumably still legal because the guy was causing a disturbance, in legal terms, by the time they laid hands on him, after warning him. And every locality has rules on the book enabling police to take control of disturbances. Everything that the police did thereafter was 100% right, as well. No matter what the guy was yelling, he wasn't complying with the police, who used restraint.

So it was dumb, but legal, in my opinion.

You are a wise man. While I question the need for for police involvement in the first place... they were involved, and he did resist. Case closed.

The thing that continues to feel wrong here is that he was on the ground, held down by 5 or 6 officers when he got the taser. He still may not have been compliant, but was he a threat? I should think you need to be a threat to have a

(WEAPON) used against you.

EDIT: I know, I know, just beating a defenseless college student (

) again.

 

[MikeD]

He still may not have been compliant, but was he a threat? I should think you need to be a threat to have a

(WEAPON) used against you.

It's a completely approriate use of force, and in fact, a lot nicer than what I'd have done to the guy, since I don't have a taser. What I would have done would have involved pressure points or joint locks that cause excruciating pain and possibly more lasting bodily injury...the fact that it was caused by a device really isn't a factor legally or even morally. Again, if you're going to attack me with your hands, I'm going to smack you with my baton. I'm expected to win any fight I'm in, not to give you some kind of fair fight.

The fact that he was indeed held to the ground by multiple officers, and was STILL fighting/resisting them, in fact makes the case for the taser. (That said, I'd still have just jacked his wrist or his jaw until he put his hand behind his back, but I'm an ape, pre-monolith...)

The officers couldn't tase him if he had just gone limp and was passively resisting, however, under most use-of-force models.

This kind of situation is something I encounter in my job, so it's something I'm used to dealing with theoretically and practically.

 

[manimal]

It's a completely approriate use of force, and in fact, a lot nicer than what I'd have done to the guy, since I don't have a taser. What I would have done would have involved pressure points or joint locks that cause excruciating pain and possibly more lasting bodily injury...the fact that it was caused by a device really isn't a factor legally or even morally. Again, if you're going to attack me with your hands, I'm going to smack you with my baton. I'm expected to win any fight I'm in, not to give you some kind of fair fight.

The fact that he was indeed held to the ground by multiple officers, and was STILL fighting/resisting them, in fact makes the case for the taser. (That said, I'd still have just jacked his wrist or his jaw until he put his hand behind his back, but I'm an ape, pre-monolith...)

The officers couldn't tase him if he had just gone limp and was passively resisting, however, under most use-of-force models.

This kind of situation is something I encounter in my job, so it's something I'm used to dealing with theoretically and practically.

Well said. we don't carry tasers either but we're hoping too soon. the proper use of a taser can end potentially lethal situations without even a trip to the ER and they are more effective on more people than oc spray and batons.
i'm also an ape and i have never used my oc spray or baton in a use of force (and i get into a lot of fights in public housing). i prefer to use what i know and trust; my hands.
mike is 100% correct, as law enforcement officers, we are not expected to fight fair, society expects us to WIN the fight and that's why they give us the tools. i am supposed to be one level higher than what the bad guy comes at me with. if he uses his fists, i use a baton/spray/taser, if he uses a knife or other weapon, i step it up to my sidearm. as i've said before, there HAS to be a serious consequence for challenging the law with violence/resistance. that kid got off easy IMO.

 

[I Are Baboon]

The video is surprising. Usually good things happen when you resist cops and try to break away from them.

He should have yelled, "I'M JOSE CANSECO!!!" as he was being dragged out.

 

[valve bouncer]

Well said. we don't carry tasers either but we're hoping too soon. the proper use of a taser can end potentially lethal situations

Mate, you and your brother could make a fortune out of this. You taser them in the face and when their eyeball explodes you tell them "hey, I know a guy who could fix that for you" and give them your brother's card. License to print money if you ask me.irate2: