Help with Commencal Meta AM

Olly · Jun 22, 2017

Any Shimano or Sunrace 11 speed cassette (or a SRAM NX) will fit your existing hub. Get one of those and either a Shimano or SRAM 11spd shifter+mech. You won't need a long cage mech. If your XTRs have a crazy bolt pattern you might need to be careful which narrow wide chainring you get - Oneup have a pretty decent selection. They also do simple top guides for the chain, for those times when narrow wide just isn't enough. As for the BB, i guess you're after these.

Udi · Jun 22, 2017

Olly nailed it.
I'd stick with your SRAM 11spd plan (shifts better) but you will have to get one of the cassettes he mentioned because the better SRAM ones need an XD freehub. If you want to save money get a cheaper derailleur, buy the X01 shifter at minimum.

Alternatively, you can just buy the XD for your Hopes (assuming Pro2 evo) but it's expensive:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/en/hope-pro-2-evo-freehub-body-sram-xx1-xd-qr/rp-prod106608
Main benefit would be the ability to run the lighter SRAM cassettes (eg. X01) if you care about weight, other benefits are minor. I wouldn't bother for an old bike, may as well know what your options are though.

XTR cranks and Hope hubs are solid.

slimshady · Jun 23, 2017

Kevin said:
Thanks guys!

CRC Has some good deals on the 10spd x.0 stuff, Im assuming this will also fit with any 10spd Shimano cassette then?

Yup, that's right. But I'd get a Sunrace 10sp 11-42 cassette before a hacked together one. Cheaper option and with decent shifting.

StiHacka · Jun 23, 2017

slimshady said:
Yup, that's right. But I'd get a Sunrace 10sp 11-42 cassette before a hacked together one. Cheaper option and with decent shifting.

I have two Sunrace 10sp 11-40T cassettes, both are fine.

jstuhlman · Jul 3, 2017

adjust b screw out?

Jm_ · Jul 3, 2017

There are a few ways to do this. One thing to keep in mind when using shimano setups is that the older derailleurs (and even a few of the new ones, like XTR) do not do big rear cassettes. They require modifications like the goatlink or aftermarket cages, which allow them to clear the big 40+ rear cogs.

An "inexpensive" and arguably efficient way is to buy a shimano cassette, derailleur and shifter. You'll need some kind of narrow-wide front chainring as well. Even the most expensive shimano cassette (XTR) can be found for cheaper than most of the SRAM stuff, so if cost is an option, this is usually the way to go. One issue is that Shimano came out with 11spd stuff, kind of as a "me too!" solution, but they didn't have the range. Now XT and some other stuff has been redesigned with much bigger cassettes, like around 46t, but it's not backwards compatible with the older 11spd derailleurs, unless you do the modifications I mention above.

There are the extender-gears, which is usually the cheapest way to get more range. This requires the modifications I briefly mentioned, narrow-wide ring and some type of clutch derailleur. This works well for some people, but you are investing in old stuff and if your derailleur or some other part is on it's last legs, it doesn't make a lot of sense to be prolonging the old stuff for future compatibility.

The next step up would be the hope mini-driver and cassette. It would require the NW ring, an 11spd derailleur and matching shifter. This is a little cheaper than the equivalent SRAM XD driver and cassette, and ends up significantly lighter. If you go this route, you are "tied" to the Hope driver and cassettes though, as no one else is making the cassettes, but CRC offers the driver+cassette at a pretty good deal.

Then there's SRAM, works great, gets you off the old splined cassette body that is still prone to gouging and marring with modern cassettes. It's quite an investment, so you have to look at the best bang for the buck in components, but the stuff is good and it works amazing. Full XX1 level is too expensive for me with little to no benefit from X01. Moving down, the GX stuff offers pretty good value and function and isn't a boat-anchor.

Some important notes, the shifter-spacing is now essentially the same between SRAM and Shimano with 11spd cassetttes, so you can mix and match their cassettes. I'd still pair a SRAM derailleur with SRAM shifter, and the same for shimano, but perfectly fine to run a SRAM cassette with otherwise shimano parts or shimano cassette with otherwise SRAM parts. Sun-race cassettes are boat-anchors and I wouldn't upgrade to 1x to put a 500g cassette on the back of my bike, but that's just me.

slimshady · Jul 3, 2017

Kevin said:
10spd med cage x.0 rear mech

That's your issue right there. A Med cage won't clear that setup.

Udi · Jul 3, 2017

There's a reason both Olly and I suggested 11spd: because dinnerplate cassettes came after 10spd, thus no 10spd stuff is actually optimised for dinnerplate cassettes and you can run into various problems.

It's not because of the cage length explicitly (that does not define cassette clearing), but modern 11spd derailleurs are designed to work properly with larger range cassettes.

My original suggestions are in my original post (I stand by them firmly - X01 shifter with whatever 11sp derailleur and 11sp cassette you can afford), maybe someone else can help get your mishmash working. I have no experience with it.

Jm_ · Jul 3, 2017

Udi said:
There's a reason both Olly and I suggested 11spd: because dinnerplate cassettes came after 10spd, thus no 10spd stuff is actually optimised for dinnerplate cassettes and you can run into various problems.

It's not because of the cage length explicitly (that does not define cassette clearing), but modern 11spd derailleurs are designed to work properly with larger range cassettes.

My original suggestions are in my original post (I stand by them firmly - X01 shifter with whatever 11sp derailleur and 11sp cassette you can afford), maybe someone else can help get your mishmash working. I have no experience with it.

I have an X1 shifter on my SRAM setup, it's outstanding. Don't think X01 is necessary there. My XT/XTR 11spd setup on my other bike has much stiffer action, some people like this, but the SRAM was already a big improvement on "positive shifting action", so the Shimano goes a little too far IMO, but it's still good quality stuff. Modern derailleurs are much stiffer with bigger plates for very positive shifts. X01 cassette does save a bunch of weight. Weighs the same as XX1 actually, but obviously not cheap. Largest rear cog is aluminum though and replaceable on both.

Udi · Jul 3, 2017

@Jm_ did you even read any of this thread before responding?
The OP already bought new gear, you're just making a mess here.

I think ideally what he needs is some help making his mishmash work if at all possible.

maxyedor · Jul 3, 2017

Are you running the B screw in or out? My e13 extendo cog came with an extra long B screw because it had to go in, way in, to get the der. in the right spot. I believe I had a med cage, but it may have been long cage. Thing didn't last long, the mega-B-Crew put too much leverage on the der. and stripped out the threads. I through an SLX set-up on and it worked pretty good, but ultimately nowhere near as good as 11spd does.

Udi · Jul 3, 2017

Yeah @maxyedor's got the right idea. The B-screw needs to be all the way in to increase the distance between the top pulley and the cassette, and you'll probably need a longer screw.

However there's two independent problems you're going to have to deal with here - one is the above, and one is that the medium cage may not accomodate the total chain length change that comes as a function of the *difference* in range and the chaingrowth from suspension travel. If you can get it to work at all, after it's working you need to let the air out of the shock and slowly bottom it out with the chain on the biggest cog to see if the cage extension covers it - and then also check it moves back enough to take up all chain slack in the smallest cog.

If you can't get it actually shifting / shifting cleanly into the biggest gears though, I'd take a step back and just get it working with your standard (smaller) range 10spd cassette first. At least then you've got a working bike.

maxyedor · Jul 3, 2017

2 more thoughts.

Sram and Shimano extend-o cogs are different, you need the one that matches up to your cassette, something about how the teeth line up. Doesn't sound like that's the issue, but that's why the e13 came with the screw, it was for my Sram cassette, so they assumed it was going to somebody with an entire Sram drivetrain. My SLX set-up did not need the screw.

second, I think it would have worked and lasted longer had the B tension screw had a jam nut on it to hold it in place and keep it from moving around in the threads of the deraileur. I had planned on adding one when I replaced the deraileur, but I got the SLX shifter and der. for half the cost of another x7 type 2 der. so I made the switch.

You should be able to move the thing by hand to at least see what the longer screw would do to the system. If that looks like the right direction to go, a hardware store should be able to sell you the screw for under a $1, or whetever screws cost in your fancy Euro money.

djjohnr · Jul 3, 2017

Another issue - placement of the rear derailleur is by no mean consistent between brands/models. I was forced to upgrade from a 10 speed E13 extender setup to an 11 speed shimano setup on my Knolly Delirium as the derailleur mount is farther outboard than any of my other bikes; the 10 speed derailleur couldn't get up to the 42.

Udi · Jul 3, 2017

Worst case you'll get it running smoothly with your stock 10spd XT cassette (pretty box-stock setup), best case with the help from a longer B screw you'll get it running with the extend-o cog.

Just make sure you or the shop does that test with putting it in the biggest cog and deflating / bottoming out the shock (or taking it out temporarily) so you don't risk tearing the cage off an expensive derailleur.

I've also had the same experience as djjohnr where some frames/hangers have a poor mounting position and setups that should work don't, hopefully not yours, but good to be aware of.

Jm_ · Jul 3, 2017

Udi said:
@Jm_ did you even read any of this thread before responding?
The OP already bought new gear, you're just making a mess here.

I think ideally what he needs is some help making his mishmash work if at all possible.

Yes, I posted what I did because his mish-mash setup wasn't working.

Udi · Jul 4, 2017

Between this and poor @jonKranked's thread, we are the worst forum.

Ask your tech questions here:
https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/

They even have an active "post your DH bike" thread.
I see @TrumbullHucker already migrated, mad invite...

jonKranked · Jul 4, 2017

Udi said:
Between this and poor @jonKranked's thread, we are the worst forum.

This is what I get for posting a thread that devolves into 26" xc nerdom. I'm gonna shave my legs and sign up for Strava. Thanks jerk.

Jm_ · Jul 4, 2017

Kevin said:
A 10spd Shimano cassette with a 10spd Sram rear mech and a 10spd Sram shifter being a mish mash set up these days is exactly whats wrong with the bike industry.

There should be a thread about this.

If it was 100% 10spd shimano cassette, i'd agree. It's only 9/10ths of a Shimano cassette though

slimshady · Jul 5, 2017

Kevin said:
Are u saying a long cage would cover it? Cause then Ill just order a new mech and be done with it...

Sorry, I brain farted there. I went down memory lane before answering and then I recalled I used a 10sp SRAM cassette with an E13 42t extender and a medium cage X9 type 2.1 RD in my Prophet back in the day, and a friend is still running that setup. Which brings me to the $64,000 question: Is your X0 RD a clutch one?

The SRAM clutch derailleurs have the upper pulley decentered with respect to the pulley cage pivot, and that allows them to clear the bigger cogs. The non-clutched ones can't move the upper pulley out of the way and it ends up striking the cassette.

A pic would help.

Flo33 · Jul 5, 2017

Kevin said:
No id if its clutched but heres a pic.

You are trying to install a SRAM RD on a Shimano hanger! Remove the small black part between the RD and the frame's RD hanger.

And yes, it is clutched.

slimshady · Jul 5, 2017

@Flo33 nailed it! Also, why didn't you use the internal frame cable guide in the chainstay instead of the zip ties?

slimshady · Jul 5, 2017

Kevin said:
Flo did fucking nail it and its shifting now even!
Who knew mech hangers came in different flavors?

Thanks monkeys for your patience!!

Shimano and Yeti among others tried to impose those Direct Mount Derailleurs a while ago. The idea was to bolt the RD directly to the hanger, putting the adapter (or B-Knuckle in Shimano's jargon) you left attached to the frame's hanger out of the equation:

TrumbullHucker · Jul 5, 2017

Udi said:
Between this and poor @jonKranked's thread, we are the worst forum.

Ask your tech questions here:
https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/

They even have an active "post your DH bike" thread.
I see @TrumbullHucker already migrated, mad invite...

I tread incredibly light on PB forums
My heart is for the monkeys

4130biker · Jul 5, 2017

Look @Udi, @slimshady solved the problem! Getting a picture was a great idea, btw. :clapping:

Udi · Jul 6, 2017

4130biker said:
Look @Udi, @slimshady solved the problem! Getting a picture was a great idea, btw.

I think you mean @Flo33, but woohoo good to see it sorted!
Also, this misattribution of credit reflects poorly on the company you represent @4130biker

Jm_ said:
Yes, I posted what I did because his mish-mash setup wasn't working.

Good thing he threw his newly purchased parts in the bin and bought new stuff hey?
Oh wait.

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