[RenegadeRick]

Today I heard about Hillary's Health care Plan on the radio.

I heard how she would offer tax credits to individuals and small businesses. I heard how this would make getting insurance more affordable and how this would make health care affordable for all Americans. What I didn't hear about was how she planned to pay for all of this, so I am posting this here in hopes that N8 can explain it to me.

Here are some links:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3321
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

On page 13 (11 in printed version) of the PDF I finally found some description of how this would be paid for. 110 billion dollars derived roughly half from increased efficiency and half from repealing the Bush tax cuts. Some money would also come from business.

If this 110 billion were distributed amongst the 47 million currently uninsured, it would provide about $2,300 towards health care insurance. This is a sizable contribution towards the average cost of about $3,000 per person for health care insurance today.

Here are some of my thoughts on the matter.
1. If this is such a good plan, why not introduce legislation today? Why tie it to her presidential campaign? Could it be that campaign promises are worthless?

2. If the increased efficiency savings don't pan out, Hillary could get that money from ending the war in Iraq (63 billion). What's that you say? Hillary is a warmonger? Awww, shucks.

What say you o wise and powerful s?
or lthumbsdown:

 

[LordOpie]

I haven't done any research, but I'll still give my opinion

Credits and affordability is all well and good. It's a nice first step. But how can we call ourselves the best country on the planet without socialized medicine?

How is education, police and WiFi internet access a God given, USA approved right of every American... but medicine isn't?

 

[Niq1]

I think the biggest obstacle to universal health care is the stigma of "socialized medicine." Americans often equate any from of government-backed health care with either a heavily-taxed socialized state a la Norway, or an exasperating wait-ridden system like England has.
Case in point, whenever this topic comes up at work, one of my more Right-leaning co-workers always says "I'll be damned if any government doctor works on me," a sentiment forged by Army medics.
I have attempted to explain that a single-payer government backed insurance program has the effect of leaving medical professionals to practice in the manner they wish, while improving access to, and streamlining the current mess that is the health insurance business. But his worry about "big government" blinds him to the fact that if it were not for his aptitude as an investor, he'd probably be in the same leaky boat (S.S. Uninsured) as many of his countrymen.
Now, there will always be waste in a government program, but as we have seen with Enron, Countrywide, and numerous other firms, the government doesn't have a monopoly on corruption and ineptitude.

 

[LordOpie]

Wait times, poor medicine, etc...

Why couldn't an insurance company offer "premium healthcare". You pay more, get VIP treatment. You get to cut in line at the ER, see better doctors, etc.?

Those VIP people would probably be paying the same amount in the end as they do today. But now, no matter how much money you have, you still have to wait in the ER.

 

[Silver]

Case in point, whenever this topic comes up at work, one of my more Right-leaning co-workers always says "I'll be damned if any government doctor works on me," a sentiment forged by Army medics.

Because an Army medic is and never was a part of the largest socialized group in the United States...

I think Americans are just stupid.

 

[ire]

Whats funny is people think wait times and cost would go up...how could they?? Its typical to wait 4+ hours at our ER (unless your bone is hanging out), and cost is really high right now. I read an analysis (I was too lazy to read her proposal) and it said it was really similair to Obama (but she had it so everyone HAS to have coverage) and Edwards. I don't know what the best route is, but somethings gotta change.

 

[RenegadeRick]

Hillary addresses both Nig1 and Loopie's concerns in her plan. Maybe you should review the links.

Aside from my 2 concerns, it sounds quite reasonable. Even to a capitalist like myself.

Why do we need to elect her and get more war for oil and Israel in order to get a decent health plan for America?

 

[Spero]

Wait times, poor medicine, etc...

Why couldn't an insurance company offer "premium healthcare". You pay more, get VIP treatment. You get to cut in line at the ER, see better doctors, etc.?

Those VIP people would probably be paying the same amount in the end as they do today. But now, no matter how much money you have, you still have to wait in the ER.

I don't think the benefits provided by a 'premium' service would be worth what someone would have to pay for a system like that to work.

The people who could afford it would simply hire one of the many private physicians that leave the system because they make a fraction of what they did before.

 

[Echo]

The problem with health care in this country is only partially the government's fault. Every asshole who gets a runny nose when they mow their lawn thinks they need a drug for asthma. Every asshole who has a bad night in bed thinks they need a drug to get a boner. These pharmaceutical companies play this up to the extreme. Lawyers sue the pharmaceutical companies and doctors every chance they get. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies charge exorbitant fees for their products and services because they have to buy huge insurance policies to protect against lawyers. And of course the insurance companies are on the take too.

Throwing a couple hundred billion dollars at the problem won't accomplish anything except making a couple hundred billion dollars disappear... and it will disappear straight into the pockets of the people who create the problem.

 

[ire]

^^ Going along with what Echo said, drug advertising is driving up health care costs as well. I read an article (and spent the last 15 trying to find it) that talked about how a drug company will just slightly alter a drug when it's patent is going to expire and then rename, get it approved and then do a huge blitz of advertising to get people to switch. I think their example was Prilosec and Nexium. So instead of buying the cheap generic you continute to pay huge money for the name brand. It was something on the order of $50 per month vs $200

<edit> HA! found it!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249591/

 

[Spero]

The problem with health care in this country is only partially the government's fault. Every asshole who gets a runny nose when they mow their lawn thinks they need a drug for asthma. Every asshole who has a bad night in bed thinks they need a drug to get a boner. These pharmaceutical companies play this up to the extreme. Lawyers sue the pharmaceutical companies and doctors every chance they get. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies charge exorbitant fees for their products and services because they have to buy huge insurance policies to protect against lawyers. And of course the insurance companies are on the take too.

Throwing a couple hundred billion dollars at the problem won't accomplish anything except making a couple hundred billion dollars disappear... and it will disappear straight into the pockets of the people who create the problem.

I'm with you on this one.

 

[blue]

Throwing a couple hundred billion dollars at the problem won't accomplish anything except making a couple hundred billion dollars disappear... and it will disappear straight into the pockets of the people who create the problem.

Exactly! Socialized healthcare is only PART of the solution. People like to whine that if we go to a universal system, costs will still increase, and that you can look to European universal healthcare systems as an example, but the reason for these increases lie within our own healthcare industry complex of doctors, hospital corporations, big pharma, and insurance companies.

My not so humble opinion is to bludgeon the healthcare industry to death. It needs total and complete revamping. If that means complete nationalization, so be it. What needs to be understood is that there shouldn't be a monolithic healthcare "industry". Private ancillaries providing supplemental products and services is all right, but drug development and the actual act of healthcare should be in the public realm.

You don't have privately owned fire stations and hydrants in your city, do you? The same should apply to hospitals.

edit: Hilary's plan, like the dude on NPR said, is just a bailout for failed insurance companies. It's a sham...people compare it to required auto insurance, but you don't HAVE to own a car...

 

[Westy]

As a side note we could reduce the burden on the healthcare system by legally beating anyone who knowingly shows up to work, flies on an airplane or is generally out in public while contagious and sick.

Ok it really wouldn't reduce the burden but it would have been really cool if I could have punched the fat troll like woman who was just coughing in my face.

 

[jimmydean]

In Australia, you have basic coverage for everyone. If you choose, you can get premium coverage either through an employer or on your own. I know my folks had premium coverage through the university and it allowed them to see a specialist without going to a primary care first.

I think a lot of the systems in the world work rather well. The main issue in the US is that healthcare is a cash cow and nobody who proffits wants to give that up.

There was an interesting show on 20/20 or dateline or something the other day talking about "express care services" in places like WalMart where you pay a flat rate and don't need insurance for non-ER type care.

 

[manimal]

my brother is a Dr, eye surgeon to be exact. I asked him about his opinion on socialized medicine and he explained the following. he did some missions work in s. america with some canadian dr's a few years back and they told him that the government pays them the same whether they do 50 cases per day or 10 so they have no incentive to work hard and earn more for their efforts. so instead of working their arses off like most young american doctors who will reap the benefits of the extra work, the canadian doctors would simply take off 2 and 3 months at a time after they filled their minimum governmental requirements.

so....that was his experience with some doctors who work in socialized medicine and he's obviously against it. i'm still undecided because i believe that my brother's $35k per month salary is a bit excessive but on the other hand, he did work his butt off through college, med school and residency so that he could do what he loves AND get paid well for it. i can understand the resistance to a drastic reduction in salary that would come with government control.

 

[blue]

my brother is a Dr, eye surgeon to be exact. I asked him about his opinion on socialized medicine and he explained the following. he did some missions work in s. america with some canadian dr's a few years back and they told him that the government pays them the same whether they do 50 cases per day or 10 so they have no incentive to work hard and earn more for their efforts. so instead of working their arses off like most young american doctors who will reap the benefits of the extra work, the canadian doctors would simply take off 2 and 3 months at a time after they filled their minimum governmental requirements.

so....that was his experience with some doctors who work in socialized medicine and he's obviously against it. i'm still undecided because i believe that my brother's $35k per month salary is a bit excessive but on the other hand, he did work his butt off through college, med school and residency so that he could do what he loves AND get paid well for it. i can understand the resistance to a drastic reduction in salary that would come with government control.

Whilst I see your viewpoint and that you are currently undecided, to say that in an ideal situation we would automatically adopt the system of other countries is a fallacious argument used by many...On the other hand, if you were to use it, one could say "Is that worse than what we have now?"

Another point: You're a government employee...do you do the bare minimum just to keep from losing your job? I mean, I think that anecdote is true for a LOT of employees throughout the public and private sector.

But yeah. Healthcare should NOT be a cashcow...I've always felt strongly about this, but I now work as a courier for a hospital company and it really is all about the bottom line and how many dollars you can make for the shareholder/squeeze out of the customer.

 

[ohio]

the government pays them the same whether they do 50 cases per day or 10 so they have no incentive to work hard and earn more for their efforts.

I have a hard time believing this is the only model for socialized or partly socialized medicine.

 

[Silver]

I have a hard time believing this is the only model for socialized or partly socialized medicine.

It's also mostly not true...unless maybe you are one of the guys working in a clinic in a rural community in exchange for having your schooling paid for.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/2002/2002_care-soinsbk5_e.html

Straight from the horses mouth:

Canada's health care system relies extensively on primary care physicians (e.g. general practitioners) who account for about 51% of all practicing physicians in Canada. They are usually the initial contact with the formal health care system and arrange for access to most specialists, hospital admissions, diagnostic testing and prescription drug therapy.

Most doctors are private practitioners who work in independent or group practices. Some doctors work in community health centres, hospital-based group practices or work in affiliation with hospital out-patient departments. Private practitioners are generally paid on a fee-for-service basis and submit their service claims directly to the provincial/territorial health insurance plan for payment. Physicians in other practice settings may also be paid on a fee-for-service basis, but are more likely to be salaried or remunerated through an alternative payment scheme.

And then, of course, you have the fact that Canada isn't the best medical system. France is generally thought to be the top of the heap.

 

[manimal]

France is generally thought to be the top of the heap.

so i guess that a good medical system does not equate to good hygiene?


and my brothers case is from a small sampling of the medical fields as these canucks were all in an eye specialty.

 

[Inclag]

So will this like totally ruin Grey's Anatomy?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Slowly Im beginning to hop on the socialized healthcare bandwagon. In theory. I mean, we've all been to the DMV and dealt with the 400lb power-tripping black lady with the attitude problem as we're simply trying to renew a license, and that's pretty awful....and when you think about applying that type of culture to healthcare wow.... but being the last major industrial nation on the planet without some form of universal healthcare is a little retarded.

 

[N8 v2.0]

yes, lets have the government do to health care what they've done for public education...

splendid idea Hillary...


(where 's the nut-kick smiley when you need it?)

 

[BurlyShirley]

yes, lets have the government do to health care what they've done for public education...

splendid idea Hillary...


(where 's the nut-kick smiley when you need it?)

Do you only speak in bumper sticker?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Do you only speak in bumper sticker?

??

W
The President​

 

[N8 v2.0]

Slowly Im beginning to hop on the socialized healthcare bandwagon. In theory. I mean, we've all been to the DMV and dealt with the 400lb power-tripping black lady with the attitude problem as we're simply trying to renew a license, and that's pretty awful....and when you think about applying that type of culture to healthcare wow.... but being the last major industrial nation on the planet without some form of universal healthcare is a little retarded.

i really dont see where we are worse off for not having socialized healthcare in our culture... give someone something for 'free' and they will abuse it until its broken or all used up or both.

 

[ohio]

the 400lb power-tripping black lady with the attitude problem

Seriously, do they just clone that bitch? It's ****ing standard issue at EVERY dmv I've ever been to, even in states that are 96% white.

 

[ohio]

i really dont see where we are worse off for not having socialized healthcare in our culture... give someone something for 'free' and they will abuse it until its broken or all used up or both.

How those roads treatin' ya?

I'm sure your real-estate business would be better off without sewage, water treatment, and fire departments.

 

[Toshi]

i really dont see where we are worse off for not having socialized healthcare in our culture... give someone something for 'free' and they will abuse it until its broken or all used up or both.

what makes you think the system is not abused now? there's NOTHING more inefficient than having hobos and druggies with no regular primary care followup (and often with diabetes, heart disease, etc. in addition to their other problems) come in to the ER every few weeks because they're so drunk, they're blood sugar is so high, or that sore on their butt has festered so long that they were found down in a ditch.

fact the first: the ER is a horrible way to deliver primary care.

fact the second: county hospitals cannot legally turn anyone away, regardless of ability to pay. this is part of the reason why bills are so exorbitant for those that can.

fact the third: if we had universal health coverage then many of these wasteful visits would be avoided, and lives would be saved through earlier and more effective intervention.

/me has been working 12+ hour shifts at the county regional trauma center/ER the last 2.5 weeks and has seen all of this first hand.

 

[Changleen]

The problem with health care in this country is only partially the government's fault. Every asshole who gets a runny nose when they mow their lawn thinks they need a drug for asthma. Every asshole who has a bad night in bed thinks they need a drug to get a boner. These pharmaceutical companies play this up to the extreme. Lawyers sue the pharmaceutical companies and doctors every chance they get. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies charge exorbitant fees for their products and services because they have to buy huge insurance policies to protect against lawyers. And of course the insurance companies are on the take too.

Throwing a couple hundred billion dollars at the problem won't accomplish anything except making a couple hundred billion dollars disappear... and it will disappear straight into the pockets of the people who create the problem.

 

[N8 v2.0]

anyone who wants too see top quality gov healthcare (that costs billions of $'s) in action, should just visit your local VA hospital...

while they have improved over the last 5 years a little, most people who qualify to to there but have some other health care option will almost always choose the other option. sure, the va is better than nothing... but only just barely.

 

[MMike]

Fact is, neither the US or Canada have gotten it right. Our system is nice in theory. But with the US system it's extremely attractive for a doctor to pick up and head south across the border because he can work for more money, in nicer conditions. Ergo, we have a doctor shortage. I don't have a primary care doctor. I can't find one that is taking new patients.

But then take into account everything that Toshi said, and it's obvious that both systems are broken.

And just so it gets included in this thread: MICHAEL MOORE!!

 

[ire]

anyone who wants too see top quality gov healthcare (that costs billions of $'s) in action, should just visit your local VA hospital...

while they have improved over the last 5 years a little, most people who qualify to to there but have some other health care option will almost always choose the other option. sure, the va is better than nothing... but only just barely.

Since you're against socialized medicine, what is your solution? Would you rather things continued to go the way they are? It's a vicious cycle, as costs go up more people become uninsured and then uninsured people don't get check ups and show up in the ER with ailments listed above or worse. Eventually it will break the system entirely and then the government will have to do something.

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

Hillary Clinton is a commie witch!
I do not want anything to do with socialized healthcare..Oh,they renamed it "universal healthcare.

People in those countires with this system die from waiting for bypasses,procedures of all kinds waiting over a year for initial visits even.
It's Crap!

The US is the only country where you can do what you farking want.
There is a network of patriots which will not let the communist party take over his country!

 

[Echo]

The US is the only country where you can do what you farking want.
There is a network of patriots which will not let the communist party take over his country!

Is that the same network of patriots which let lawyers and pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies take over this country?

 

[MMike]

yikes

 

[dan-o]

I support basic healthcare for those who cannot afford it on their own.

But, I have little sympathy for those who can afford it yet choose not to. If you can afford a DH bike/auto-x hobby car/fat sacks of ganj etc you can afford insurance.

 

[ire]

I support basic healthcare for those who cannot afford it on their own.

But, I have little sympathy for those who can afford it yet choose not to. If you can afford a DH bike/auto-x hobby car/fat sacks of ganj etc you can afford insurance.

Last time I checked DH bikes and fat sacks didn't cost over $10,000 per year

...an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $11,500...

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

 

[blue]

I support basic healthcare for those who cannot afford it on their own.

But, I have little sympathy for those who can afford it yet choose not to. If you can afford a DH bike/auto-x hobby car/fat sacks of ganj etc you can afford insurance.

Another fallacious argument.

Even if you CAN afford basic health ins, many times you can't get it. Why? Ever heard of a "pre-existing condition"? If you HAVE health insurance, it can be scary going to the doctor. Why? You're afraid of what your insurance won't pay, or that they'll pull something as a pre-existing condition and write off your whole policy, sticking you with the bill from the past year... I need to go to the doctor right now, but I know that my insurance company will try hard as hell to prove what's wrong with me is a "preexisting condition", then write off my policy for the past year and stick me with a $3000+ bill, and ALSO make me uninsurable through ANYONE. I'm holding out for my employer insurance to kick in in November and hoping the whatever doesn't off me before then.

It's not just being uninsured that's a major problem here. The whole fvcking system is a giant scam.

 

[RenegadeRick]

Even if you CAN afford basic health ins, many times you can't get it. Why? Ever heard of a "pre-existing condition"?

Hillary's plan would outlaw pre-existing conditions, and force insurance companies to cover everyone.

Wouldn't that make the overall costs go up?

hmmmmmmm.......

 

[blue]

Hillary's plan would outlaw pre-existing conditions, and force insurance companies to cover everyone.

Wouldn't that make the overall costs go up?

hmmmmmmm.......

Yes...like I said, it's a bailout for the ins companies, nothing more.