Here is a good article regardless of what type of plan you're for.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/11/BUG02O20R81.DTL
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/11/BUG02O20R81.DTL
Hillary's Health Plan
- Thread starter RenegadeRick
- Start date
so tell me again, why the tax payers of this nation should foot the bill for the multitudes of non/under insured dumbasses who want to live with their unhealty lifestyle choices?savings vary wildly by disease, so there's no hard and fast rule. in general it's cheaper to intervene before someone is 300 lbs, type 2 diabetic, with congestive heart failure, cholesterol through the roof, a foot amputation or two, and COPD from smoking for 50 years...
because we already foot the bill. did you miss my point about the ER being used as primary care, and how county hospitals cannot turn anyone away? decades ago we decided we would not let people simply die in the gutters. universal insurance coverage might just make this system a bit less costly.
Man your cocky... you have to realize that your current (but not for long) plush career in home construction orchestration has obviously desensitized you to a severe degree. (a bit heartless as well)
What do you think all your employees and sub-contractors have do deal with to make it buy, be able to show up on your jobsite, and ultimately make you all that fat lazy cash you reap from the sale of your specs or finishing of your customs.
What do you say about them? That you don't give a rats ass about them either?? You better, because without them, your broke.
When was the last time you had do bust your knuckles open tieing rebar in a foundation, or herniated a disc from rolling heavy ass rafters & joists, or fallen off one of your roofs??
When was it? My guess is not recently.
You better hope the bubble hasn't burst as bad as it seems to have. You're ****ed if it has.
Nobody is going to hire your old "engineering" ass for anything close to what you take in right now... therefore rendering you not rich enough to pay your lavish premiums.
By the way, after reading this thread, it seems as though the only one who is actually bitching is you.
See in the footing trenches soon sucka!
No, he was leulling before.
Oh....he should know better then
I remember his character, what happened?
I do, but it still amazes me
lol
You can never be too careful :biggrin:
well since the fact is that this nation is mostly obese, eats food that promotes heart disease/diabetes etc then -yes- i'd say the majority of the under insured are in that category as are most of those who work for their health benefits.
agreed, there is a narrow band of grayish in the middle but i dont see where socialized health care is going to vastly improve the system. i can see where it improves for the those without now, but i can see where it can degrade the system for the rest of us. but hey, at least we'll all get the same crappy care like in canada et al.
A friend of mine from the UK recently vacationed in the US. He bought a short term travelors insurance policy for his family as his European coverage obviously isn't going to help him here. He actually had a bad vacation and two of his children had to go to the emergency room. One from an ear infection and the other got smacked in the head by a branch while riding atop a double decker tour bus in San Francisco. He said the level of service he got was the same as at home but the big difference being he has had to spend endless hours dealing with paperwork. Our system socialized or not is just rediculous. Too many lawyers, too many people with their hands in the pot. One of the reasons we are losing jobs over seas, including to europe is the cost of health insurance. It still cost so much more for an American to get equivalent healthcare no matter who is paying.
i'm just realistic. call it what you want though.
My subs carry their own insurance... they have a choice of paying the health care benefits to their workers or not. If they pay, then their profit is reduced, if they dont offer bene's then they make more. Some do and some dont. To me it makes no difference. I carry worksmans comp for my business and cover my own health care premiums.
as far as no one wanting to hire my.. what was it.. "old engineering ass" ... please tell that to the f'ing head hunter companies who send me crap several times a month.
If new home construction slows down then i'll pick up remodeling jobs and branch out into commercial construction and land development. If all that fails, then i'll sell off my holdings and get a part time job at Walmart and work my way up again.
i'm amazed at the lack of self confidence a lot of you in here have... must suck to be so totally helpless. Explains a lot tho about why you thing the gov should feed you, pay you, educate you, provide medical care, blah blah blah...
so if i keep my current plan, why would i want to pay for someone else's?
Yep, I just love to get calls from people asking why their health insurance rates went up "even though they did not use it."
Its because you are in the same pool of insured people as Gluttonous Gary, Tobacco Tom, Liquor Larry, STD Stacy and Tanning bed Tina.
When you have a nation of unhealthy turds it does not matter what "system" you put in place, it is going to suck.
That's why even in this thread, there is no "plan" to really get behind and no candidate is really standing out on this issue, because no idea yet
that has been thrown in the mix is going to fix the problem.
Its because you are in the same pool of insured people as Gluttonous Gary, Tobacco Tom, Liquor Larry, STD Stacy and Tanning bed Tina.
When you have a nation of unhealthy turds it does not matter what "system" you put in place, it is going to suck.
That's why even in this thread, there is no "plan" to really get behind and no candidate is really standing out on this issue, because no idea yet
that has been thrown in the mix is going to fix the problem.
It seems like you think all your subs are rich too. You act as if they are making extreme amounts of profit (like your ins. company is off of you). I got news for you.... THEY AREN'T!
I do my business in one of the wealthiest construction communities in this country, and guess what? Most subs and generals are walking an extremely fine line between being able to pay there company bills and filing chapter 11.
I assure you that if your subs do not have group plans for their employees, it's because they just can't afford it.
The head hunter's that hit you up will not be able to find you a secure job making the kind of loot that you're used to... better bank on that.
And as far as confidence goes, you're the one with a bail out plan that leaves you working for $7 an hour at wallmart.
Talk about helpless
Everyone wants to be in sales. Squeeze everything you can out of somebody else's hard earned dollar.
The paper work seems a little out of hand.
Wow...It's amazing you can function in life without being able to see more than 3 feet infront of yourself. Really....amazing.
Yeah, I just did.
I totally agree with the theory especially paying for preventative up front, but they are not really doing anything new.
Alot of people are doing the higher deductible/ HSA plan structure
with better benefits for preventative.
And that 24 hour hotline has been around for years.
It does work though. I have had a lot of clients comment on using the nurse line instead of going to the emergency room. (It still amazes me that people flock to the emergency for having the butt trotts or something over the weekend.) And they normally pay dearly for it, then do it again. A lot of companies have a $200 emergency room fee, but it is waived if you are actully admitted.
I like that feature.
But anyway, their theory is good.
Award good behavior.
I would like to see it pushed alot further actually, even if it means that I have to see fat people marching outside of businesses.
apparently there are 40M who (for whatever reason have no insurance) but then again they can get medical care at the emergency room because we are all paying for it thru our insurance premiums.
so are these people who are uninsured with or without medical care???
make up your mind
so are these people who are uninsured with or without medical care???
make up your mind
They can not see a doctor w/out paying full price. They have no prescription coverage. Therefore they have no health care.
Why do you fight for a system that gives 30% of inefficiency to make rich people richer and hate the discussion of improving the system to help poor and working people with no coverage??
show me the alternative then... which organization/politico has a workable plan?
post it up
I confess you nailed me pretty good. After some research I have found most industrialized countries have their citizens pay 10% for healthcare and the employers pay around 10%. Depending on the country, employes will provide Voluntary Health Insurance in addition.
I think I like the United Kingdom's the best b/c they have great hospitals, people I spoke to on my honeymoon loved it and you can receive care abroad.
References:
http://www.euro.who.int/document/OBS/hcs8countries.pdf
http://www.amsa.org/uhc/international.cfm
UNITED KINGDOM
104
1 INTRODUCTION
The responsibility for health care is devolved to the constituent countries of the United
Kingdom: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. In all countries, health care is
predominantly funded through national taxation. Within each county, the responsibility for
purchasing health services is being devolved to local bodies (Primary Care Trusts in England,
Health Boards in Scotland, local health groups in Wales and Primary Care Partnerships in
Northern Ireland). Primary care services are mainly provided by GPs and multi-professional
teams in health centres (under a capitated budget). Hospitals are mainly publicly owned with
independent trust status. Private hospitals mainly provide services to privately insured patients
or those who are willing to pay directly.
2 WHO BENEFITS AND WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?
2.1 Coverage
All legal residents of the United Kingdom are entitled to cover under the UK National Health
Service (NHS). In addition residents of the European Economic Area (EEA) are entitled to
care, as are residents and citizens of other countries with which the UK has reciprocal
agreements (http://www.doh.gov.uk/overseasvisitors/patientguide.htm).
In the UK, 11.5% of the population have supplementary private medical insurance (Laing and
Buisson 2001). Those most likely to have private medical insurance are in the higher income
groups (40% of adults with PMI are in the highest income decile compared to less than 5% in
the lowest) (Emmerson et al 2000). According to data from the General Household Survey
1995 12% of those between 45-64 years old had PMI compared to only 5% of those over 65
years old. PMI is also concentrated amongst those in the professional and managerial
occupations (of whom around 22% have PMI compared to only 2% of those in semi-skilled
manual and personal services). PMI policy holders are concentrated in London and the South
East of England where around 20% of the population have PMI. In Scotland and the North
the figure is as low as 5% of the population (Laing and Buisson 2001).
2.2 Benefits
NHS benefits are not explicitly defined. The National Health Service Act 1977 places a
general responsibility on the Secretary of State to provide services to such extent as he
considers necessary to meet all reasonable requirements.
More recently with the establishment of the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE)
recommendations are being made to the Secretary of State as to whether the NHS should
cover certain services for all of the population or for certain indications or defined subgroups
of the population. NICE is a special health authority and is accountable to the Secretary of
State for Health and to the National Assembly for Wales. Its decisions are based on analysis
of the costs and benefits of a particular technology by the Appraisal Committee
(http://www.nice.org.uk). NICEs guidance is not yet mandatory though recent government
announcements suggest this is likely to change. The equivalent body in Scotland is the
Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network (SIGN).
Health authorities, with some discretionary powers, have generally made rationing decisions.
With the further shift towards local purchasers (e.g. PCTs) it is likely that some rationing
decisions will be further devolved.
The British National Formulary lists all drugs licensed for sale in the UK. It is not a positive
list of drugs, however it does indicate which drugs are not available on NHS prescription.
UNITED KINGDOM
105
Some products are excluded from NHS cover due to poor therapeutic value or excessive costs
(Section 8a of the drug tariff). Other drugs are only available on NHS prescription in
particular circumstances. There are hospital formularies and local formularies e.g. for Primary
Care Trusts (PCTs) but no national formulary in the UK.
3 WHO PAYS AND HOW MUCH?
3.1 Taxation
Direct taxes are levied at the following rates: 10% (on first GBP 1880 of taxable income),
22% (GBP 1881GBP 29 400) and 40% (over GBP 29 400) (http://www.inlandrevenue.
gov.uk/rates/it.htm). The standard rate of value added tax (VAT) is 17.5%. Certain goods and
services are zero rated or reduced rate (5%).
Rates of local taxation (council tax) vary between local authorities and are banded according
to the value of the property within authorities. Some exemptions apply depending on the
status of the occupiers (e.g. students, single occupants, second home). These revenues are not
used to fund health care but do fund social services including home care and residential care
for the elderly.
The progressivity of the taxes used for health care as measured by the Kakwani Index
(1977) indicates that direct taxes in the UK were progressive (+0.28) and indirect taxes
regressive (-0.15). Overall taxes were mildly progressive (+0.05) (Wagstaff et al 1999). Data
on the distribution of the tax burden between income groups shows that direct taxes account
for 24% of gross income of top quintile compared to 12% of the bottom quintile. Indirect
taxes account for 12% of gross income of the top quintile and 28% of the bottom quintile.
Overall the bottom income group pays 40% of income on taxation compared to 36% in the
top income group. This measure of progressivity suggests that overall taxation in the UK
might be regressive (Commission on Taxation and Citizenship 2000).
3.2 Social health insurance contributions
The equivalent to social insurance in the UK is National Insurance. The employee
contribution is 10% of earned income between GBP 87 and GBP 575 per week and the
employer contribution is 11.9% on earnings above GBP 87 with no upper ceiling
(http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm). A lower rate of GBP 2 per week applies to
the self-employed plus a percentage of profits. These revenues go into the National Insurance
Fund (which is managed by the Treasury). When funds are insufficient to pay out the required
benefits (e.g. during periods of high unemployment) transfers are made from general taxation.
However, any surplus is accumulated in the Fund. The rates are set every year by the
government in the budget. Some groups such as the unemployed and carers are credited with
contributions for purposes of benefit entitlement. Others may make voluntary contributions to
retain entitlement. National Insurance contributions are less progressive than direct taxes
according to the Kakwani Index (+0.19) (Wagstaff et al 1999).
3.3 Voluntary health insurance premia
Premia for private medical insurance (PMI) are risk rated for individual polices and group
rated for group insurance. There is no regulation of premia. Income tax relief on policies for
over 60s was introduced in 1991 but subsequently abolished in 1997. Employers may
purchase PMI for employees out of pre-tax income. However employers must pay National
Insurance contributions on the value of the PMI benefit and employees must pay income tax
on the value of the in-kind benefit. Recently, insurance companies have been required to pay
an Insurance Premium Tax levied at 5% on the value of the premia.
I think I like the United Kingdom's the best b/c they have great hospitals, people I spoke to on my honeymoon loved it and you can receive care abroad.
References:
http://www.euro.who.int/document/OBS/hcs8countries.pdf
http://www.amsa.org/uhc/international.cfm
UNITED KINGDOM
104
1 INTRODUCTION
The responsibility for health care is devolved to the constituent countries of the United
Kingdom: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. In all countries, health care is
predominantly funded through national taxation. Within each county, the responsibility for
purchasing health services is being devolved to local bodies (Primary Care Trusts in England,
Health Boards in Scotland, local health groups in Wales and Primary Care Partnerships in
Northern Ireland). Primary care services are mainly provided by GPs and multi-professional
teams in health centres (under a capitated budget). Hospitals are mainly publicly owned with
independent trust status. Private hospitals mainly provide services to privately insured patients
or those who are willing to pay directly.
2 WHO BENEFITS AND WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?
2.1 Coverage
All legal residents of the United Kingdom are entitled to cover under the UK National Health
Service (NHS). In addition residents of the European Economic Area (EEA) are entitled to
care, as are residents and citizens of other countries with which the UK has reciprocal
agreements (http://www.doh.gov.uk/overseasvisitors/patientguide.htm).
In the UK, 11.5% of the population have supplementary private medical insurance (Laing and
Buisson 2001). Those most likely to have private medical insurance are in the higher income
groups (40% of adults with PMI are in the highest income decile compared to less than 5% in
the lowest) (Emmerson et al 2000). According to data from the General Household Survey
1995 12% of those between 45-64 years old had PMI compared to only 5% of those over 65
years old. PMI is also concentrated amongst those in the professional and managerial
occupations (of whom around 22% have PMI compared to only 2% of those in semi-skilled
manual and personal services). PMI policy holders are concentrated in London and the South
East of England where around 20% of the population have PMI. In Scotland and the North
the figure is as low as 5% of the population (Laing and Buisson 2001).
2.2 Benefits
NHS benefits are not explicitly defined. The National Health Service Act 1977 places a
general responsibility on the Secretary of State to provide services to such extent as he
considers necessary to meet all reasonable requirements.
More recently with the establishment of the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE)
recommendations are being made to the Secretary of State as to whether the NHS should
cover certain services for all of the population or for certain indications or defined subgroups
of the population. NICE is a special health authority and is accountable to the Secretary of
State for Health and to the National Assembly for Wales. Its decisions are based on analysis
of the costs and benefits of a particular technology by the Appraisal Committee
(http://www.nice.org.uk). NICEs guidance is not yet mandatory though recent government
announcements suggest this is likely to change. The equivalent body in Scotland is the
Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network (SIGN).
Health authorities, with some discretionary powers, have generally made rationing decisions.
With the further shift towards local purchasers (e.g. PCTs) it is likely that some rationing
decisions will be further devolved.
The British National Formulary lists all drugs licensed for sale in the UK. It is not a positive
list of drugs, however it does indicate which drugs are not available on NHS prescription.
UNITED KINGDOM
105
Some products are excluded from NHS cover due to poor therapeutic value or excessive costs
(Section 8a of the drug tariff). Other drugs are only available on NHS prescription in
particular circumstances. There are hospital formularies and local formularies e.g. for Primary
Care Trusts (PCTs) but no national formulary in the UK.
3 WHO PAYS AND HOW MUCH?
3.1 Taxation
Direct taxes are levied at the following rates: 10% (on first GBP 1880 of taxable income),
22% (GBP 1881GBP 29 400) and 40% (over GBP 29 400) (http://www.inlandrevenue.
gov.uk/rates/it.htm). The standard rate of value added tax (VAT) is 17.5%. Certain goods and
services are zero rated or reduced rate (5%).
Rates of local taxation (council tax) vary between local authorities and are banded according
to the value of the property within authorities. Some exemptions apply depending on the
status of the occupiers (e.g. students, single occupants, second home). These revenues are not
used to fund health care but do fund social services including home care and residential care
for the elderly.
The progressivity of the taxes used for health care as measured by the Kakwani Index
(1977) indicates that direct taxes in the UK were progressive (+0.28) and indirect taxes
regressive (-0.15). Overall taxes were mildly progressive (+0.05) (Wagstaff et al 1999). Data
on the distribution of the tax burden between income groups shows that direct taxes account
for 24% of gross income of top quintile compared to 12% of the bottom quintile. Indirect
taxes account for 12% of gross income of the top quintile and 28% of the bottom quintile.
Overall the bottom income group pays 40% of income on taxation compared to 36% in the
top income group. This measure of progressivity suggests that overall taxation in the UK
might be regressive (Commission on Taxation and Citizenship 2000).
3.2 Social health insurance contributions
The equivalent to social insurance in the UK is National Insurance. The employee
contribution is 10% of earned income between GBP 87 and GBP 575 per week and the
employer contribution is 11.9% on earnings above GBP 87 with no upper ceiling
(http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm). A lower rate of GBP 2 per week applies to
the self-employed plus a percentage of profits. These revenues go into the National Insurance
Fund (which is managed by the Treasury). When funds are insufficient to pay out the required
benefits (e.g. during periods of high unemployment) transfers are made from general taxation.
However, any surplus is accumulated in the Fund. The rates are set every year by the
government in the budget. Some groups such as the unemployed and carers are credited with
contributions for purposes of benefit entitlement. Others may make voluntary contributions to
retain entitlement. National Insurance contributions are less progressive than direct taxes
according to the Kakwani Index (+0.19) (Wagstaff et al 1999).
3.3 Voluntary health insurance premia
Premia for private medical insurance (PMI) are risk rated for individual polices and group
rated for group insurance. There is no regulation of premia. Income tax relief on policies for
over 60s was introduced in 1991 but subsequently abolished in 1997. Employers may
purchase PMI for employees out of pre-tax income. However employers must pay National
Insurance contributions on the value of the PMI benefit and employees must pay income tax
on the value of the in-kind benefit. Recently, insurance companies have been required to pay
an Insurance Premium Tax levied at 5% on the value of the premia.
you are ok with this then?
3 WHO PAYS AND HOW MUCH?
3.1 Taxation
Direct taxes are levied at the following rates: 10% (on first GBP 1880 of taxable income),
22% (GBP 1881GBP 29 400) and 40% (over GBP 29 400) (http://www.inlandrevenue.
gov.uk/rates/it.htm). The standard rate of value added tax (VAT) is 17.5%. Certain goods and
services are zero rated or reduced rate (5%).
3 WHO PAYS AND HOW MUCH?
3.1 Taxation
Direct taxes are levied at the following rates: 10% (on first GBP 1880 of taxable income),
22% (GBP 1881GBP 29 400) and 40% (over GBP 29 400) (http://www.inlandrevenue.
gov.uk/rates/it.htm). The standard rate of value added tax (VAT) is 17.5%. Certain goods and
services are zero rated or reduced rate (5%).
It's just not right that american's largest cause of bankruptcy (which is harder to file for thanks to curren administration) is due to lack of healthcare.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1
Okay, I think I'm done
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1
Okay, I think I'm done
After my federal income, Fica, state, local, sales tax, medical deduction (mine is cheap too, 131/month for family of 3 for personal choice) and copays I don't think they are paying much more if any. I would like to know how their real estate taxes are structured.
If anything, we should uncap FICA in this country because there is not way rich people should not pay the same percent that working joes do. Let's not even talk about dividends. SO yes, if everyone paid those rates I'd be okay w/that because right now only the middle class are paying high rates. You're an engineer, I'm sure your paycheck has a lot taken out too.