Iran Tests Missile Capable of Hitting Israel

MTB_Rob_NC · Aug 11, 2004

TOUGH TALK

"If Israel behaves like a lunatic and attacks the Iranian nation's interests, we will come down on their heads like a mallet and break their bones," the ISNA students news agency quoted Revolutionary Guards Commander Yahya Rahim Safavi as saying on Wednesday.

I for one, wouldn't even worry about Israel's ability to defend themselve's or kick Iran or pretty much the entire ME's collect a$$ if they had too.

roee · Aug 15, 2004

Such a missile is not the exclusive problem of Israel (in which I happen to live), but of the entire world. At 1300 kilometers of range, it is indeed capable of hitting Europe and other targets.
Coupled with a nuclear warhead like Iran is attempting to develop.. well, we have a problem. No, I do not for one second think Iran is stupid enough to offensively use it against Israel, not at least under Iran's current regime.
But then:
1. There has been a major revolution in Iran once (1979, I think), which brought fanatic Muslims to state management. There's no reason why such a revolution will not occur again, especially in the light of recent student protests, etc. No one can really predict who will control Iran next, or how someone in the heat of a revolution might behave "in the name of the Islam".

2. Armed with such a weapon, Iran will enjoy an insurance of some sort, which will allow it to harass Israel with terror. Iran already does just that, but without needing to fear the consequences of directly confronting Israel - even through a third party - it will push these actions to an extreme.

Europe, in fear from the Muslim minority and with much of self rightousness, is long ago paralyzed and won't do anything to stop Iran from arming itself.
As always, it just rather ignore the problem, thinking it will vanish.

Who's left? Israel, and the US, who always rushed to help the ungrateful, selfish Europe defend itself.

The world must put an end to this circus, for the sake of future generations.

Toshi · Aug 15, 2004

Mtb_Rob_FL said:
I for one, wouldn't even worry about Israel's ability to defend themselve's or kick Iran or pretty much the entire ME's collect a$$ if they had too.

exactly. israel has nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver them anywhere in the region thanks to much hardware from the us, for better or worse.

Silver · Aug 15, 2004

roee said:
Europe, in fear from the Muslim minority and with much of self rightousness, is long ago paralyzed and won't do anything to stop Iran from arming itself.
As always, it just rather ignore the problem, thinking it will vanish.

Who's left? Israel, and the US, who always rushed to help the ungrateful, selfish Europe defend itself.

The world must put an end to this circus, for the sake of future generations.

Damn right!

Thank God (and I mean Yahweh, not that Allah character) that the US has staunch allies such as Pakistan to help us in our fight.

Let me turn the sarcasm off for a moment...you're basically arguing that only Jews are responsible enough to have nuclear weapons then?

roee · Aug 15, 2004

Silver said:
Damn right!

Thank God (and I mean Yahweh, not that Allah character) that the US has staunch allies such as Pakistan to help us in our fight.

Let me turn the sarcasm off for a moment...you're basically arguing that only Jews are responsible enough to have nuclear weapons then?

Forget the "Jewish" bit for a moment.
Lets concentrate on the states, and not the individuals:

Israel is a democratic, non-religous country, with laws that protect human rights, the right for free speech and is, other than the constant state of threat its in, no different than any other western country around the globe.
We have a functioning economy, and the stability of our country is voted for in practice by many international companies who invest here a great deal of money (Intel, Motorola, Alcatel, whatnot). And all of this in a constant state of "war". Even in the worst of times we don't go around in parades with missiles who read "Death to Arabs" or anything.
I can assure you that a visit here will suprise you, the fact that we serve as a headline factory for CNN and the likes does no good for our image over the world.

Iran, on the other hand, is a fanatic Muslim dictatorship which is lead by religous zealouts who would go great lengths to satisfy the Islamic blood rampage. They fund suicide bombers against Israel, they fund and provide weapons for the Hizballa (the terrorist organization which reside in the south of Lebanon). They express their aggression in the media and outside it each and every day. Just read what has been said by them above. It speaks for itself.

Now lets see: Which would you rather see holding weapons of mass destruction?
Which of the scenarios is more likely, Israel launching a nuclear attack against Europe, or Iran launching a nuclear attack against Europe?

Israel is said to have it's nuclear arsenal for many years now, and it hasn't used or threatend to use it in none of its past wars. I think it goes to show something. Israel never admitted it even has ballistic missiles - now go back to the first post in this thread.
Do you think anyone in his right mind in the US would let Cuba arm itself with nukes?

It's just a matter of common sense, really. Nothing to do with Jews, or even Arabs.

Silver · Aug 15, 2004

You missed my point completely.

Pakistan is basically the same as Iran, except the leader happens to be a general instead of a religious leader. It's one tiny step away from becoming Iran. Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and is a major player in proliferation. No noise is being made about doing something about Pakistan, however. Why not?

As for your assertion that Israel is no different from any other western state, that is clearly false. Israel is a racist state, and is rapidly turning itself into a new version of South Africa. The mere fact that Israel hides the nuclear program it has doesn't really help me sleep better at night.

Which of the scenarios is more likely, Israel launching a nuclear attack against Europe, or Iran launching a nuclear attack against Europe?

Neither. The mullahs aren't stupid enough to want to be vaporized.

Changleen · Aug 15, 2004

roee said:
Israel is a ..., non-religous country, with laws that protect human rights, the right for free speech and is, other than the constant state of threat its in, no different than any other western country around the globe.
We have a functioning economy,

What a bunch of crap...open your eyes before you speak such rubbish. Israel was founded as a state for the Jews. You really gonna claim it's a secular state? You might claim to protect human rights but what about the thousands of Palestinians you've killed? What about the fascist policies of your Government that repress and ensure that Palestinians live in a constant state of fear? Your media has the right to free speech but does not exercise it. What about the billions of dollars of US aid you recieve every year?
Sharon is a fascist murderer, and the Israeli people are complicit by their silence.

roee · Aug 15, 2004

1. Pakistan is still not Iran, though, as you said, I can see it becoming one, with the recent trend of radical Islam raising it's head.
Pakistan took the "right" stance in this round of global war; It didn't confront the US.
I don't see any bold statements coming out of Pakistani leaders, and for one second I'm not deluding myself to think it's because they like me (or you - you may refuse to believe that, but we're in the same boat) - they just don't want to mess with Bush, especially not in their state of affairs with India.
Anyway, they are less of a tactical threat to the US and Europe (or Israel) than Iran.
Mind, it's Iran that makes the threats, not Pakistan.
Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear planet 1981. Based on what you see in Iraq now, would you want these people to have nuclear weapons?

2. I don't know on what grounds can you call Israel "racist". Fact is that many (as much as 20-25%) of the country's citizens are Arabs. Most of them support the Palestinians, many of them oppose the existence of Israel. They have their own Parlament parties. Yet they receive the right to elect, they receive welfare and they are exempt from some civil duties, like military service. Jews don't go near their villages for the fear of getting slaughtered.
Do you think any other country in the world would tolerate 20% of these guys?
I recently read that half of France's inmates are Muslims, while their percentage in population is well below 10%. No where in the ARAB world do they receive such a treatment. They can speak freely against Israel, which funds them! When was the last time you've seen someone from Iran criticizing their regime? Maybe supporting Israel?
You know what, I want to see a US Congressman speaking in favour of Iraq now, like the Arab Parlament Members speak in favour of the Palestinians here every day. I want to see a US Congressman calling Marines "Murderers" like the Arabs Parlament members call IDF soldiers.
Take into attention that one of the reasons for which Israel refrained from presenting it's nuclear program is to prevent a proliferation race in the Middle East.
It's not ideal, but then we're surrounded by blood thirsty barbarians...

3. I completely agree with you on that point. However, which country's nuclear weapon might end up in hostile hands, they same hands who brought you 9/11?
Were it fanatic jews who sent two airplanes into the WTC?
As I said, the real threat is not the possibility of having the nuclear weapons used in effect, but rather the assurance they will bring Iran, which will cause them to support more terrorists activites.

Overall, this is a unique situation where two worlds clash - West and East. Israel is the contact point of the western world with the Muslim world, and as such takes all the heat, from both sides. In the Muslim world, disputes are resolved in a very violent, barbaric fashion. Look at the Iraq-Iran war, with the extensive use of non-conventional weapons. Look at all the people Saddam killed in Iraq, Assad killed in Syria, Mubarak killed in Egypt. Where was CNN?

Now, of course I'm biased

. Just don't believe all you see/hear on the media.
We all wish we were surrounded by peaceful Norwegians, but unfortunately we're stuck with the primates.

Best regards.

roee · Aug 15, 2004

Changleen said:
What a bunch of crap...open your eyes before you speak such rubbish. Israel was founded as a state for the Jews. You really gonna claim it's a secular state? You might claim to protect human rights but what about the thousands of Palestinians you've killed? What about the fascist policies of your Government that repress and ensure that Palestinians live in a constant state of fear? Your media has the right to free speech but does not exercise it. What about the billions of dollars of US aid you recieve every year?
Sharon is a fascist murderer, and the Israeli people are complicit by their silence.

A little history lesson for you: Israel was, and indeed is still, a country for the Jews. Racist, perhaps. But after WWII, Jews understood they must have their own national home or forever be at the mercy of lunatics.

Thousands of Palestinians were killed, thousands more will probably be killed until they put down their weapons. They are not a very bright nation (in fact, historically they are not a nation, but who am I to revoke the right of self definition).
Between us and them it's a war, not that you in New Zealand ever had one.
What would YOU do if dozens of suicide bombers were sent daily to wreck havoc in Oakland? Would you NOT build a wall? NOT use your army? Funny, count the number of fatalities in this conflict and compare it to the number of fatalities in Iraq, over a greatly shorter period of time.
Mind you, Sharon would have NEVER EVER been elected if not for the Paletinians themselves who brought this war upon themselves. Israelis were tradionally right winged, only when the peace process failed and casualities went up did we start voting for Sharon.

This is hypocracy at its best. No one seems to protest against their use of children as living bombs, of pregnant women as meatshield; All people bitch about is the Israelis. Well, open your eyes yourself.

I live here; You are merely a media victim. :blah:

LordOpie · Aug 15, 2004

roee said:
I live here; You are merely a media victim.

oh, the smackdown!

Your comments about Sharon are interesting and parallel US in a way... if not for terror, there's zero chance that Bush would get re-elected.

Silver · Aug 15, 2004

Quick question for you roee...

Do you really think that demonizing every single Arab as a killer who likes to sprinkle Jewish blood on thier dinner for a seasoning is going to help things? I don't know how else to say this, but until you stop doing that, I'm not going to respond to you anymore. It's like arguing with a Klan member, because everything you say is based on the assertion that Arabs/Muslims (You seem to use that interchangeably) are "primates."

Also, Iran appears to have very little, if anything to do with 9/11. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan were the prime movers from a standpoint of state sponsorship of that event, not Iran.

One more thought: You keep arguing that Israel is a bastion of freedom and democracy, and compare that to the savagery of the Arab world. Do you understand why maybe I expect a little more from a so-called democracy than I do from a totalitarian government?

LeeOz · Aug 15, 2004

I love it when f**king illiterate retards call Israelis or the state of Israel the "jews"...

No wonder why 41% of the country (in the polls) thought that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11... they have no clue about history (states or religions) whatsoever...

Before the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, 3/4 of the whole country couldn't point those 2 states out on a world map (I'm pretty sure they still can't)... but now everyone is a damn middle-east expert

so damn funny

roee · Aug 15, 2004

Silver said:
Quick question for you roee...

Do you really think that demonizing every single Arab as a killer who likes to sprinkle Jewish blood on thier dinner for a seasoning is going to help things? I don't know how else to say this, but until you stop doing that, I'm not going to respond to you anymore. It's like arguing with a Klan member, because everything you say is based on the assertion that Arabs/Muslims (You seem to use that interchangeably) are "primates."

Also, Iran appears to have very little, if anything to do with 9/11. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan were the prime movers from a standpoint of state sponsorship of that event, not Iran.

One more thought: You keep arguing that Israel is a bastion of freedom and democracy, and compare that to the savagery of the Arab world. Do you understand why maybe I expect a little more from a so-called democracy than I do from a totalitarian government?

1. May I suggest you go and view the US hostages decapitation movies again, before you start humanizing them. NO ONE DOES SUCH **** BUT PRIMATES. Same for bombing buses, restaurants, using living bombs etc.
They are all showing they (BOTH Arabs and Muslims) are lagging behind the western values, thus rightly earning the title "primates". How else can you label them? Freedom fighters? Let me repeat this: There are places inside Israel that no sane Jew will travel to, because he'll get slaugthered. Do you have such places in the US? Even Harlem is not what it used to be.
Can you imagine a place in your own country travelling to would mean an almost certain death?

2. Iran had it's share of wrongdoings, it IS funding terror, unless you don't think Hizballa commits terror against Israel. They are providing terrorist organizations with training, money, and means, what else should they do?
Israel knew terror way before 9/11. It was only a wakeup call, nothing new otherwise. Iran doesn't have to be linked with 9/11 to be evil.

3. So-called? I wish. This is a democracy gone wild, no country in it's right mind would let representitives of it's enemies to be legalisators.
Anyway, let me answer it like this: Do you understand that some issues are different when you are in a war? Trust me when I tell you these people understand nothing but power. And if you need a proof, study THEIR history and see just how bloody and barabaric it is. Why should I treat them any better than they treat me, or even one another?

LordOpie · Aug 15, 2004

roee, I totally respect what you say and agree with most, if not all, of it; however, ya need to tone down or re-think you're position on labeling ALL muslims/arabs as primates for a couple of reasons:

1. You shut down any opportunity to discuss the subject with people who are sensitive to stereotyping.

B. It isn't true. There's got to be atleast one muslim who's truly a decent human being.

#. Oranguntans are primates. They are one of the coolest creatures on the planet. If you could quantify the strength-peacefulness ratio, they'd win. They're super strong, but very lovable creatures. Calling a terrorist a primate is a disservice to all the other primates.

roee · Aug 16, 2004

LordOpie said:
roee, I totally respect what you say and agree with most, if not all, of it; however, ya need to tone down or re-think you're position on labeling ALL muslims/arabs as primates for a couple of reasons:

1. You shut down any opportunity to discuss the subject with people who are sensitive to stereotyping.

B. It isn't true. There's got to be atleast one muslim who's truly a decent human being.

1. I think Politically Correctness is preventing people from acknowledging the real state of affairs. I live in the same country with these guys, I know them. They are very, very far from western culture, and swear by the same tribal values they had hundreds of years ago. I can bring many, many examples.
Look at Europe; they ignored the Muslim immigration problem for the sake of politically correctness, and now they are stuck with so many of them that I wouldn't be suprised if in 10 years, most of Europe will have extreme right winged goverments.

2. Of course there are other types of Arabs too. I'm not racist and I don't think they are such people "because they were born like this". It's all a matter of values and education.
You can't take a solid stance without doing some generalization, it's true about everything.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh, you just can't ignore the reality. Follow Iraq carefully, it's a case study. These people are not ready for democracy in any form or way.

Best regards

Changleen · Aug 16, 2004

roee, you are a racist twat. I have no further desire to talk to you. N8 is a better human being than you. I hope one day you wake up to yourself.

roee · Aug 16, 2004

Changleen said:
roee, you are a racist twat. I have no further desire to talk to you. N8 is a better human being than you. I hope one day you wake up to yourself.

I wouldn't expect someone who only share his country with sheep to understand such complex, sensitive issues

fluff · Aug 16, 2004

N8 said:
I am betting that the majority of Israelies are not hoping for a Kerry presidency.

Give it a rest...

fluff · Aug 16, 2004

It's so good to see mature discussion about a very important subject...

Neither side is completely right or completely wrong here.

So long as both the Israeli state and the Palestinian people pursue confrontation there will be more bloodshed and ultimately it is highly likely Israel will be destroyed, which would be a bad thing. It is ultimately in their own hands to ensure their survival and they urgently need to seek a political solution that offers the Arabs an acceptable way out also.

All this talk about terrorism only feeds terrorism, any state that exaggerates the terrorist threat simply encourages the terrorist to believe that they can have an effect. It's stupid.

Changleen · Aug 16, 2004

roee said:
I wouldn't expect someone who only share his country with sheep to understand such complex, sensitive issues

What a mature response. Once again highlighting your inability to consider anyone other than yourself as a human being and apparantly lacking the intelligence to deal with anyone as an individual rather than a stereotype.

Actually I know a considerable amount about this subject. I've visited both Isreal and Palestine, and Jordan, Egypt and a few other places. I've seen for myself first hand the inequality that Jewish management of the Palestinians has resulted in. I read alot about the subject, and expose myself to media from both sides of the fence. Maybe you should learn a little more about who you're talking to before you go spouting your mouth off with stupid, innacurate, childish insults.

I called you a racist. I'm going to stand by that - let's have a look at some of the content from your previous few posts:

I don't know on what grounds can you call Israel "racist".... Fact is that many (as much as 20-25%) of the country's citizens are Arabs... It's not ideal, but then we're surrounded by blood thirsty barbarians

In the Muslim world, disputes are resolved in a very violent, barbaric fashion.

Thousands of Palestinians were killed, thousands more will probably be killed until they put down their weapons. They are not a very bright nation

NO ONE DOES SUCH **** BUT PRIMATES.

They are all showing they (BOTH Arabs and Muslims) are lagging behind the western values, thus rightly earning the title "primates".

Again and again you refer to the entire Arab and Muslim population as Primates, you talk about them being less than westerners - that their culture is in some way inferior. This is the behaviour of a Racist. You have closed mindedly described nearly a third of the world's population as inferior to yourself. This is not a stand point from which rational debate can occur.

Secondly, despite calls for myself and others to learn about History, you seem to be fairly ignorant of the subject yourself. Ever heard of the Ottoman empire? Astronomy? A good deal of the principals of Mathematics? Apparantly not. The Arab world is part of the basis of modern civilisation, like it or not.

You also seem to be fairly ignorant about Politics - let's just look at another of your little rants for a second:

Israelis were tradionally right winged, only when the peace process failed and casualities went up did we start voting for Sharon.

Because Sharon is SOOO left wing? Get a clue.

You seem to feel you are somehow a victim, surrounded by angry hoardes, determined to destroy you no matter what. In reality your Government, with support from people such as yourself has undertaken a nearly five decade long oppresion of your neighbours, resulting in the deaths of uncounted thousands of Palestinians, while the Americans pay off the only people able and possibly willing to help to sit on their hands.

You deny them infrastructure, education, healthcare, a viable society, and when it all gets too much and they try and fight back against your American sponsored war machine the only way they can, you brand them 'terrorists' and kill yet more of them, swooping from the skies in multi-million dollar attack helicopters against which they are utterly helpless. Now that is true terrorism if ever I heard of it.

I note you've recently started attacking even refugee camps with Apaches. How do you justify that? Bombing, shooting, mortaring or in any way killing innocent people is wrong, and suicide bombers more often than not result in considerable civilian deaths, but it is hardly suprising - how can they get near a soldier who is armed from a different generation? Suicide bombing is an act of desperation by a people who have been abused, murdered, oppresed and terrified by a vastly superior force for three generations. And even then, the death toll they incur and their worst attrocity cannot begin to match yours. IDF incursions into the West Bank and Gaza with death tolls of 60 in one week, week after week, year after year. Beating to death of children in the streets. Buring innocent families alive. Nearly 1/4 of Isreals victims are children. Another 1/4 are Women.

And after all that you stand there and call all Arabs and Muslims Primates. Like I said, you are a narrow minded racist. You apparantly have no deep understanding of the issues, you talk hate, and you sound like you are simply regurgitating the contents of Ha'aretz.

Occasionally in this forum we manage to have a decent debate about actual issues. Until you learn about the view from the other side of your illegal fence, stop dehumanising Arabs and Muslims, and make yourself aware of the actions of your Government carried out in your name, you're a pretty long way from being in a position to do that. Racism is a curse which the Jews of all people should understand, yet here you are with a mouth like Hitler. Very sad indeed.

Trond · Aug 16, 2004

wørd!

LordOpie · Aug 16, 2004

roee said:
Changleen said:

roee, you are a racist twat. I have no further desire to talk to you. N8 is a better human being than you. I hope one day you wake up to yourself.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't expect someone who only share his country with sheep to understand such complex, sensitive issues

haha! I was gonna say that you're very lucky that Chang wasn't doing to talk to you any more, but it appears he did. Just ignore him. Silver and fluff, however, are good guys with good points, so don't alienate them. If you're lucky, chang will actually stop posting.

I agree about political correctness getting in the way of problems, but it's also necessary so you can maintain the dialogue. Since I don't disagree with you otherwise, that's pretty much all I have.

Andyman_1970 · Aug 16, 2004

Changleen said:
roee, you are a racist twat. I have no further desire to talk to you. N8 is a better human being than you. I hope one day you wake up to yourself.

That's funny, aren't you calling roee a racist because he is effectivly devaluing a set of humans (Arabs) and then you devalue him with that statement that he is less of a human than N8.................... :rolleyes:

fluff · Aug 16, 2004

This is a BBC journalist's view of Iran after spending time there:

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3555822.stm

It does neither side any good to demonise the other, just as vitriol tends to diminish an argument.

jmvar · Aug 16, 2004

I note you've recently started attacking even refugee camps with Apaches. How do you justify that? Bombing, shooting, mortaring or in any way killing innocent people is wrong, and suicide bombers more often than not result in considerable civilian deaths, but it is hardly suprising - how can they get near a soldier who is armed from a different generation? Suicide bombing is an act of desperation by a people who have been abused, murdered, oppresed and terrified by a vastly superior force for three generations. And even then, the death toll they incur and their worst attrocity cannot begin to match yours. IDF incursions into the West Bank and Gaza with death tolls of 60 in one week, week after week, year after year. Beating to death of children in the streets. Buring innocent families alive. Nearly 1/4 of Isreals victims are children. Another 1/4 are Women.

ROEE, I would really like to hear the justification behind these figures. I am not sure where Changleen got them, but I have seen similar and I can post this one.....

During those 12 months, 1,145 people were killed on the Palestinian side and 446 on the Israeli side. In the third year, from October 2002 to September 2003

Source

I feel like a Palestinian living in Palestine dodging missles from an Apache helicopter on their way to work could say the same thing you are saying about Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians. The acts performed by terrorist organizations are not representative of all Muslims in the middle east. These acts are barbaric but often are excused or even applauded I think out of desparation. How can a country with a population throwing sticks and rocks, and making homemade bomb devices compete with military funded by the richest nation in the world?

If Palestinian bombers had Apache helicopters and all othery types of expensive military equipment would they still be terrorists? Is it because they are not using traditional military tactics that they are barbaric?

I see both sides as beeing inhumaine and barbaric. Both sides display animal behaivior that like Lord Opie stated, is insulting to Orangotangs. You cannot justify the actions taken by Isreal, the "democratic" "non-racial" "free" nation.....

Of course there are other types of Arabs too. I'm not racist and I don't think they are such people "because they were born like this". It's all a matter of values and education.

You suffer from the same result of conditions that you put onto your Palestinian counter parts. You have been raised to feel like the victim of the Palestinians when in fact Isreal is too the aggressor.

I sat with a distant Lebanese cousin of mine and he proceeded to tell me that Jews were people of the devil. I looked at him in disbelief, got up and walked away. I couldn't stop thinking about what he said, it made me realize that a lot of people, Muslims and Jews, probably don't really know why they hate each other so much besides what they have been taught to believe.

roee · Aug 16, 2004

Changleen, I can't really say anything about your post other than admitting I mistakely exchanged "Israelis are tradtionally LEFT winged" with "right winged", and for this I apologize (it's not my opinion, but rather a fact).

Other than this, I won't even start to address your pathetic, biased comments as this will lead us nowhere.
I can support each and every one of my "racist" comments with facts and examples.
Is saying they operate to different moral standards makes me racist? Is there any precedent to their actions in the western culture?
Decapitating hostages with swords? Sending pragnent women to explode? WTF? How can you justify that?
Please study the conflict a little more than you already did, and then you'll see that they enjoyed world fastest economical growth in the years of the Oslo process, until they started this war.
But I won't convince you, and in any case it's purely hipothetical discussion as obviously we, as a nation, can't and won't allow them to continue terrorist activities regardless of the cost they will pay.

Thanks.

LordOpie, I acknowledged I might have been too harsh; I'll let you Americans judge it for yourselves

I hold nothing against any human being, but the ones who seek to murder me.

Thanks

LordOpie · Aug 16, 2004

jmvar, you're only looking at the last 20 yrs. If you're going to make a post like that, you need to consider a longer time frame. Basically, the Arab World was literally standing alongside palestinians, sometimes in front of them, during the 40s-80s. There were serious *wars*, not terrorist conflicts that the arab world helped with. Now, they've left the palestinians to deal with the situation alone, relatively speaking.

In otherwords, the arab world fought with israel, they retreated. Why didn't they take the palestinians -- whom they were "supposedly" fighting for -- with them when they left?

Silver · Aug 16, 2004

LordOpie said:
jmvar, you're only looking at the last 20 yrs. If you're going to make a post like that, you need to consider a longer time frame. Basically, the Arab World was literally standing alongside palestinians, sometimes in front of them, during the 40s-80s. There were serious *wars*, not terrorist conflicts that the arab world helped with. Now, they've left the palestinians to deal with the situation alone, relatively speaking.

In otherwords, the arab world fought with israel, they retreated. Why didn't they take the palestinians -- whom they were "supposedly" fighting for -- with them when they left?

What makes you think that the Palestinians wanted to leave in the first place?

LordOpie · Aug 16, 2004

roee said:
But I won't convince you, and in any case it's purely hipothetical discussion as obviously we, as a nation, can't and won't allow them to continue terrorist activities regardless of the cost they will pay.

that's pretty funny. If people think what israel is doing is wrong, i'd like to see what would happen if a group committed a terrorist act on the USA and what we would do to them or anyone associated with them.

Silver said:
What makes you think that the Palestinians wanted to leave in the first place?

More to the point, why weren't they given the option?

In 1948, only Jordan (the real palestine) offered the people a home. None of the other arab countries did.

Silver · Aug 16, 2004

roee said:
I can support each and every one of my "racist" comments with facts and examples.

David Duke can do the same thing. So can all the right wing xenophobes who live where I do but hate Mexicans. That hardly makes them correct.

roee · Aug 16, 2004

jmvar,

I can't argue with these figures. I believe they are right.
If after reading what you read you still think Israel is the aggressor, then I can just recommend you refer to an alternate source of media than the one you're currently using.

I guess the true question here would be, "who started this". If you can show me that Israel declared war on the Palestinians, I'll STFU and go ride my bike.
However, until then, my facts claim they started this conflict, after being offered generous settlements, sponsored by the EU and the US.
True, they suffer. But there is no other way to confront terror. Unless you go ahead and launch missiles at Hamas leaders, go and find bombs, and deny their ability to enter Israel, you won't get anywhere. This war escalated, at the beginning there were many Israeli casualities, but now, with harsh military actions, we managed to prevent most - almost all - of their terroist acts.

We both agree on the outcome; They suffer, they pay in victims every day.
But I claim there is no other way, if we want to live peacefully in Israel.
If you would like to divert this discussion into why this conflict started in the first place, which is a far more sophisticated question, I'd love to debate it

roee · Aug 16, 2004

LordOpie said:
In 1948, only Jordan (the real palestine) offered the people a home. None of the other arab countries did.

That's absolutely correct, as there is no "Palestinian" nation. The west bank was conqured during a war with Jordan (Six Days War, now I wonder if that has any relation to the Six Days Enduro..

), the Gaza strip was conqured from Egypt along with the rest of Sinayi.
So they are basically former citizens of two entirely different lands.

Now, you may think something is strange - how come Israel is at peace with both of these countries, yet got to keep the conqured lands? It's because NO ONE wants the Palestinians in their land (it might be "racist", but it's true).
Jordan was the spearhead against the fence being built, and they admitted it's because they are afraid from waves of immigration by desperate Palestinian.

There was never a Palestine nation. But as I said earlier, who am I to revoke the right of self definition.

roee · Aug 16, 2004

Silver said:
David Duke can do the same thing. So can all the right wing xenophobes who live where I do but hate Mexicans. That hardly makes them correct.

I think you are riding this "racism" horse a bit too far. I'm not racist, I was just making comments about the general handling of things in Arab countries.
I'm sure they can ALL be great people, but unfortunately they are operating in a much more... medival (rings better than Barbarians, right?

) way than I can accept.

jmvar · Aug 16, 2004

ROEE, we can debate all day long about history, what happened, then what really happened, and who wrote the history books. However, if you stay in the "who started this" mentallity there will NEVER be a resolution to the conflict. Do you think that the US can supply Isreal with enough arms to kill off all Palestinians with out nuking them? What is Isreals plan for ending the terrorist attacks? Or has Isreal come to the conclusion that they will just live with the casualties and live life "retaliating" for these attacks?

Lord Opie/ROEE, I posted the deaths from 2002 because it is what is happening right now. This is what the future genenrations of Palestinian bomber are living right now. Palestine with it's poverty, repression and from its own government, repression from Isreal, makes it a breeding ground for future terrorist recruitment. When they see that for every 1 Isreali killed there will be 3 Palestinians killed, that won't scare them into not joining a terrorist organization, that will push them to it. At this point there is an ENDLESS supply of suicide bombers and there always will be in that climate.

When ever I discuss this issue with Jewish friends the discussion always ends with: "We won the war fair and square so the Palestinians should have just taken what we gave them."

jmvar · Aug 16, 2004

It's because NO ONE wants the Palestinians in their land (it might be "racist", but it's true).

Then where should they go? Should they all die just because no one wants them? Please don't go into the history and state that they could have just gone and become Egyptian, or Jordanian citizens because the issue is here and now...If Isreal goes and just blows Palestine into the dust then the US will have to cut military funding, which in my opinion is the only reason Sharon has not done it already.

LordOpie · Aug 16, 2004

roee said:
It's because NO ONE wants the Palestinians in their land (it might be "racist", but it's true).
Jordan was the spearhead against the fence being built, and they admitted it's because they are afraid from waves of immigration by desperate Palestinian.

that's very interesting about Jordan and immigration. I always thought the arab world wanted the palestinians to continue being a thorn to israel.

Silver · Aug 16, 2004

jmvar said:
Then where should they go? Should they all die just because no one wants them? Please don't go into the history and state that they could have just gone and become Egyptian, or Jordanian citizens because the issue is here and now...If Isreal goes and just blows Palestine into the dust then the US will have to cut military funding, which in my opinion is the only reason Sharon has not done it already.

4 options I can see:

1) Forcibly move or kill them (I believe we call that ethnic cleansing nowadays though...might not be the best option.)
2) Withdraw from the occupied territories.
3) Stay in Gaza and the West Bank, status quo (which is why I make the claim Israel is not a democracy...when you occupy a piece of land for more than 30 years and refuse to give the people you are occupying the same rights, you've basically created a de facto apartheid system.)
4) Stay in Gaza and the West Bank and give the people there full citizenship rights.

ohio · Aug 16, 2004

Wow, I've been gone a long time, but this debate is enough to convince me to post again.

Before I start, jmvar, being Jewish is not the same as being Zionist, Likud, pro-Israel, pro-Sharon, etc. If all arguments with your Jewish friends end the same way, I suggest you try to meet more Jews.

I'm going to skip over roee's racism, though I'd like to address it as a Jew who HAS lived in Israel... but I don't want to sidetrack myself from the important parts of this issue.

So to get down to it, at this point it and with this many dead it is more than childish to argue over who started it, it's downright shameful. At some point in a conflict like this, one side has to accept that a spiral of retribution leaves everyone dead, and if the goal is to save lives and seek peace one side must step beyond the history of the issue and look ONLY at the present and the future. In this situation, it is the responsibility of the stronger side to do that, as they are the only ones with that option available to them.

I'm not saying it's in any way easy to turn your back on murdered countrymen... but it simply MUST be done at some point to achieve a peace. You can say I don't understand the real situation, but I was there in Jerusalem to see a busload of school children blown to bits by a suicide bomber. Two of our friend's children were on the bus, but managed to survive. You can call me a hypocrite, because our government pursued the same style of retribution, but it would not have been my course of action and the results of our methods simply prove point (i.e. recruiting suicide bombers against American targets has never been easier). It's not "rewarding terrorism" to remove the source of it, it's humanity. The hypocrisy of a Jewish State holding an entire people in concentration camps hurts me to my soul, and every day that it continues is going to make it more costly to end.

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