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Israel's Crimes Against Humanity

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
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I'll bold the important parts like usual
http://www.alternet.org/story/113143/
Israel’s siege of Gaza, largely unseen by the outside world because of Jerusalem’s refusal to allow humanitarian aid workers, reporters and photographers access to Gaza, rivals the most egregious crimes carried out at the height of apartheid by the South African regime. It comes close to the horrors visited on Sarajevo by the Bosnian Serbs. It has disturbing echoes of the Nazi ghettos of Lodz and Warsaw.

“This is a stain on what is left of Israeli morality,” I was told by Richard N. Veits, the former U.S. ambassador to Jordan who led a delegation from the Council on Foreign Relations to Gaza to meet Hamas leaders this past summer. “I am almost breathless discussing this subject. It is so myopic. Washington, of course, is a handmaiden to all this. The Israeli manipulation of a population in this manner is comparable to some of the crimes that took place against civilian populations fifty years ago.”

The U.N. special rapporteur for human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, former Princeton University law professor Richard Falk, calls what Israel is doing to the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza “a crime against humanity.” Falk, who is Jewish, has condemned the collective punishment of the Palestinians in Gaza as “a flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law as laid down in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.” He has asked for “the International Criminal Court to investigate the situation, and determine whether the Israeli civilian leaders and military commanders responsible for the Gaza siege should be indicted and prosecuted for violations of international criminal law.”

Falk, while condemning the rocket attacks by the militant group Hamas, which he points out are also criminal violations of international law, goes on to say that “such Palestinian behavior does not legalize Israel’s imposition of a collective punishment of a life- and health-threatening character on the people of Gaza, and should not distract the U.N. or international society from discharging their fundamental moral and legal duty to render protection to the Palestinian people.”

“It is an unfolding humanitarian catastrophe that each day poses the entire 1.5 million Gazans to an unspeakable ordeal, to a struggle to survive in terms of their health,” Falk said when I reached him by phone in California shortly before he left for Israel. “This is an increasingly precarious condition. A recent study reports that 46 percent of all Gazan children suffer from acute anemia. There are reports that the sonic booms associated with Israeli overflights have caused widespread deafness, especially among children. Gazan children need thousands of hearing aids. Malnutrition is extremely high in a number of different dimensions and affects 75 percent of Gazans. There are widespread mental disorders, especially among young people without the will to live. Over 50 percent of Gazan children under the age of 12 have been found to have no will to live.”

Gaza now spends 12 hours a day without power, which can be a death sentence to the severely ill in hospitals. There are few drugs and little medicine, including no cancer or cystic fibrosis medication. Hospitals have generators but often lack fuel. Medical equipment, including one of Gaza’s three CT scanners, has been destroyed by power surges and fluctuations. Medical staff cannot control the temperature of incubators for newborns. And Israel has revoked most exit visas, meaning some of those who need specialized care, including cancer patients and those in need of kidney dialysis, have died. Of the 230 Gazans estimated to have died last year because they were denied proper medical care, several spent their final hours at Israeli crossing points where they were refused entry into Israel. The statistics gathered on children—half of Gaza’s population is under the age of 17—are increasingly grim. About 45 percent of children in Gaza have iron deficiency from a lack of fruit and vegetables, and 18 percent have stunted growth.

“It is macabre,” Falk said. “I don’t know of anything that exactly fits this situation. People have been referring to the Warsaw ghetto as the nearest analog in modern times.”

“There is no structure of an occupation that endured for decades and involved this kind of oppressive circumstances,” the rapporteur added. “The magnitude, the deliberateness, the violations of international humanitarian law, the impact on the health, lives and survival and the overall conditions warrant the characterization of a crime against humanity. This occupation is the direct intention by the Israeli military and civilian authorities. They are responsible and should be held accountable.”

The point of this Israeli siege, ostensibly, is to break Hamas, the radical Islamic group that was elected to power in 2007. But Hamas has repeatedly proposed long-term truces with Israel and offered to negotiate a permanent truce. During the last cease-fire, established through Egyptian intermediaries in July, Hamas upheld the truce although Israel refused to ease the blockade. It was Israel that, on Nov. 4, initiated an armed attack that violated the truce and killed six Palestinians. It was only then that Hamas resumed firing rockets at Israel. Palestinians have launched more than 200 rockets on Israel since the latest round of violence began. There have been no Israeli casualties.

“This is a crime of survival,” Falk said of the rocket attacks. “Israel has put the Gazans in a set of circumstances where they either have to accept whatever is imposed on them or resist in any way available to them. That is a horrible dilemma to impose upon a people. This does not alleviate the Palestinians, and Gazans in particular, for accountability for doing these acts involving rocket fire, but it also imposes some responsibility on Israel for creating these circumstances.”

Israel seeks to break the will of the Palestinians to resist. The Israeli government has demonstrated little interest in diplomacy or a peaceful solution. The rapid expansion of Jewish settlements on the West Bank is an effort to thwart the possibility of a two-state solution by gobbling up vast tracts of Palestinian real estate. Israel also appears to want to thrust the impoverished Gaza Strip onto Egypt. There are now dozens of tunnels, the principal means for food and goods, connecting Gaza to Egypt. Israel permits the tunnels to operate, most likely as part of an effort to further cut Gaza off from Israel.

“Israel, all along, has not been prepared to enter into diplomatic process that gives the Palestinians a viable state,” Falk said. “They [the Israelis] feel time is on their side. They feel they can create enough facts on the ground so people will come to the conclusion a viable state cannot emerge.”

The use of terror and hunger to break a hostile population is one of the oldest forms of warfare. I watched the Bosnian Serbs employ the same tactic in Sarajevo. Those who orchestrate such sieges do not grasp the terrible rage born of long humiliation, indiscriminate violence and abuse. A father or a mother whose child dies because of a lack of vaccines or proper medical care does not forget. A boy whose ill grandmother dies while detained at an Israel checkpoint does not forget. All who endure humiliation, abuse and the murder of family members do not forget. This rage becomes a virus within those who, eventually, stumble out into the daylight. Is it any wonder that 71 percent of children interviewed at a school in Gaza recently said they wanted to be a “martyr”?

The Israelis in Gaza, like the American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, are foolishly breeding the next generation of militants and Islamic radicals. Jihadists, enraged by the injustices done by Israel and the United States, seek to carry out reciprocal acts of savagery, even at the cost of their own lives. The violence unleashed on Palestinian children will, one day, be the violence unleashed on Israeli children. This is the tragedy of Gaza. This is the tragedy of Israel.
The UN General Assembly President has also called out to boycott Israel because of the apartheid installed.

Here's a couple excerpts from (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728202944&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull)

The settler population in the West Bank is growing three times as fast as the population in the rest of the country and has doubled over the past 12 years, according to an extensive demographic study published Monday by the Ariel University Center in Samaria (the College of Judea and Samaria).

...

Of the remaining 5,500 new residents, 800 are new immigrants and 4,700 are Israelis who moved from within the Green Line.
Israel's crimes are one of those pink elephants that the U.S refuses to do anything about, and it is terrible. What they are doing is completely unjustifiable, but unless the U.S starts threatening to cut off funding, Israel will still keep doing it.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
so do you believe this is a balanced account?
The U.N. special delegate for human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, a former US Ambassador to Jordan, and the UN General Assembly President, as well as numerous human rights organizations are a pretty good place to start.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
I am loath to say this, but the best thing to happen to the Jews was the Holocaust. It has been used as their validation for 60 plus (And more more in the future...) years of maltreatment of any group that opposes them.

Someone please tell me why the US government sucks the collective Israeli ass? And how do we support the House of Saud while doing so?
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
I am loath to say this, but the best thing to happen to the Jews was the Holocaust. It has been used as their validation for 60 plus (And more more in the future...) years of maltreatment of any group that opposes them.

Someone please tell me why the US government sucks the collective Israeli ass? And how do we support the House of Saud while doing so?
Ever since the Balfour Declaration, a Jewish state has been a sure thing, but the unwavering support in the U.S. comes from Evangelicals that believe that there needs to be a Jewish state in order for Jesus to open up a star portal to Heaven and the fact that Jews are a significant voter group.

Also, in the U.S. especially, anti-Zionism is equivalent to antisemitism.

edit: I have a feeling that your question was rhetorical, but I wanted to slip in the Jesus star portal reference.
 
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TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
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I'm homeless
You are ignoring a few key points in this situation, there is this place called EGYPT on the other side of Gaza. You also have to take into account this, Israel has pulled out of Gaza, it is not it's own nation. This new nation of Gaza has been launching rockets into Israel, is it not within Israels rights to close its boarders. While I disagree with Israel cutting off humanitarian aid, I blame Egypt just as much (if not more they are supposedly "friends") for the situation.

Edit the Balfour Declaration never specified Israel, Sudan and Argentina were considered as well.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
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You are ignoring a few key points in this situation, there is this place called EGYPT on the other side of Gaza. You also have to take into account this, Israel has pulled out of Gaza, it is not it's own nation. This new nation of Gaza has been launching rockets into Israel, is it not within Israels rights to close its boarders. While I disagree with Israel cutting off humanitarian aid, I blame Egypt just as much (if not more they are supposedly "friends") for the situation.

Edit the Balfour Declaration never specified Israel, Sudan and Argentina were considered as well.
Here's the text of the Balfour Declaration

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour
Israel controls the power that goes into Palestine, not Egypt. Calling the Gaza strip its own nation is silly, because Israel controls everything. Israel only left the Gaza strip because there wasn't anymore water.

It is not within Israel's right to close its boarders when it knows that thousands will suffer and die because of their actions. The only semi-reliable way for food and water to get into the Gaza strip is through tunnels that run into Egypt.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel

Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’.
 
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TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
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I'm homeless
Here's the text of the Balfour Declaration
Israel was specified in the 20's in some later speech, it was discused in the Balfour Declaration to let the international community know that they didn't want to bother any one else in the creation of their state. (don't recall who made it)

Israel controls the power that goes into Palestine, not Egypt. Calling the Gaza strip its own nation is silly, because Israel controls everything. Israel only left the Gaza strip because there wasn't anymore water.

It is not within Israel's right to close its boarders when it knows that thousands will suffer and die because of their actions. The only semi-reliable way for food and water to get into the Gaza strip is through tunnels that run into Egypt.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel

Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’.
Israel controls the power to Palistine because Egypt has REFUSED to allot ANYTHING through the boarder. You missed my main point BOTH SIDES ARE TO BLAME!!!! I can just understand where Israel is coming from in closing the boarder (notice how I am also against stopping food and water from coming in) While the only motive I can come up with for Egypt doing this is spite for israel.

I also am very much against Israels torture of "terrorist" (for lack of a better word, they truly are fighting for their freedom, they are just going about it the wrong way, and are truly the victim in this situation) suspects

I also acknowledge the Palestinians right to the West Bank, and Gaza Strip.

You are looking at the situation from the wrong perspective, you are looking at an "Israeli-Palestinian" conflict, where it is actualy an "Arab-Israeli" conflict between the Arab world and Israel. Palestine is stuck in middle as the victim, being exploited and abused by both sides.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
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Israel has complete control over the imports and exports of the Gaza strip, even if the transaction doesn't go across Israeli territory.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
as tempting as it may be to go point-by-point on so much upthread, i'd rather have you (samirol) speculate on a few things in gen'l:
  • would you rather be a jew living in a muslim nation, or a muslim living in a jewish nation?
  • are you aware of any practical "jewish solution" proposed by a disinterested 3rd party?
  • as a cultural norm, do israeli jews teach their kids that palestinians are lesser people?
  • when taken prisoner, is the treatment anywhere close to equal between palis & israeli?
  • do you believe arafat was good or bad for the palestinians?
  • do you believe that if israel were to issue a sweeping mea culpa, complete w/ laying down all offensive arms & agreeing to previously proposed concessions, that there would be peace in the land within this generation?
  • do you believe that sworn allies to the palestinian cause are doing / have done everything w/in their means to help their brothers, or do you believe by & large that palestinians are treated as pawns by their brethren?


being nakedly pro-israel, i honestly don't know what i could propose that's both realistic & dignified to all involved. i don't believe "the solution", if it indeed exists, is a political one, but rather a cultural one. i suppose another holocaust would send a clear message, good for a few decades.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
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I'm homeless
Israel has complete control over the imports and exports of the Gaza strip, even if the transaction doesn't go across Israeli territory.
For some one who act like they know so much about the conflict, you really don't know some of the most basic things, EGPYT SHARES A BOARDER WITH GAZA, they could let goods through, the only reason that Israel has control over imports and exports is because EGYPT WONT LET ANY THROUGH!!!!
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
as tempting as it may be to go point-by-point on so much upthread, i'd rather have you (samirol) speculate on a few things in gen'l:
  • would you rather be a jew living in a muslim nation, or a muslim living in a jewish nation?
  • are you aware of any practical "jewish solution" proposed by a disinterested 3rd party?
  • as a cultural norm, do israeli jews teach their kids that palestinians are lesser people?
  • when taken prisoner, is the treatment anywhere close to equal between palis & israeli?
  • do you believe arafat was good or bad for the palestinians?
  • do you believe that if israel were to issue a sweeping mea culpa, complete w/ laying down all offensive arms & agreeing to previously proposed concessions, that there would be peace in the land within this generation?
  • do you believe that sworn allies to the palestinian cause are doing / have done everything w/in their means to help their brothers, or do you believe by & large that palestinians are treated as pawns by their brethren?


being nakedly pro-israel, i honestly don't know what i could propose that's both realistic & dignified to all involved. i don't believe "the solution", if it indeed exists, is a political one, but rather a cultural one. i suppose another holocaust would send a clear message, good for a few decades.
It's kind of funny, Arab Israeli's have more rights as Israeli citizens than in any Muslim nation.

What Israeli's are taught from about Palestinians varies from, get the hell out this is our land and it's in our bible, and theirs too give the Palestinians everything including West Jeruselem

One of the main problems I have found is the complete lack of understanding, most Israeli's do not know any Muslim Arab-Israelis and vise versa. I big step forward is if the people imposed segregation ended and Jews, Muslims, and Christians started living together instead of next to each other.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
Speaking from some experience, as a Jew who lived in Jerusalem and traveled extensively though not into disputed territories, I'll do my best to answer (inline):

i'd rather have you (samirol) speculate on a few things in gen'l:
  • would you rather be a jew living in a muslim nation, or a muslim living in a jewish nation? - you're confounding Muslim with Palestinian... the two hold very different status in Israel. However, to answer the question as posed, it depends on the muslim nation: Turkey, Indonesia, UAE, and even Saudi Arabia would be be comparable though more to my status as a Western Jew rather than an Israeli Jew
  • are you aware of any practical "jewish solution" proposed by a disinterested 3rd party? - as has been posted several times, a two party state with massive infrastructure investments intot the Palestinian one by 3rd party nations (and preferably Israel), with continued ruthless pursuit of terrorists by Israel and allies AND sanctions against Israel for attacks/behaviors that fall outside the boundaries of extradition or defense
  • as a cultural norm, do israeli jews teach their kids that palestinians are lesser people? - yes, many do. does the word "chosen" sound familiar?
  • when taken prisoner, is the treatment anywhere close to equal between palis & israeli? - not sure, can you point us to accounts of both?
  • do you believe arafat was good or bad for the palestinians? - terrible. his peace prize is an abomination.
  • do you believe that if israel were to issue a sweeping mea culpa, complete w/ laying down all offensive arms & agreeing to previously proposed concessions, that there would be peace in the land within this generation? - no. again, there needs to be massive investment in the palestinian state to ensure education and a productive economy, coupled with continued ruthless pursuit of actual terrorists.
  • do you believe that sworn allies to the palestinian cause are doing / have done everything w/in their means to help their brothers, or do you believe by & large that palestinians are treated as pawns by their brethren? - pawns, but sitting and pointing at other Arab nations accomplishes nothing. If they cannot be embarassed into action, it is no excuse to let the situation continue to spiral.


being nakedly pro-israel, i honestly don't know what i could propose that's both realistic & dignified to all involved. i don't believe "the solution", if it indeed exists, is a political one, but rather a cultural one. i suppose another holocaust would send a clear message, good for a few decades.
I do think there are solutions that are realistic. Dignified is a different story. Both sides have committed atrocious acts and both are going to have to lose some face to come to a workable agreement. We keep repeating this is an impossible problem, and I think we've convinced ourselves of that, but I don't believe it to be true. Had we poured the same attention and resources into Palestine as Iraq, we could have solved this problem. Any idea what 500 billion in investment in Palestine (and another 500 billion into Israel to round out the full cost of Iraq) could have bought us?
 
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$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
ohio:

- yes, while palestinian =/= muslim, they are predominantly sunnis, so that's what i'm working with
- i agree that current residents of gaza/w.b. should be allowed to give birth to significant modern infrastructure; i bet they'd be quite insulted to receive this from israel, but that's not really relevant
- wrt "chosen": to whom much is given, much is expected
- prisoner treatment can be explained by the manner in which exchanges are performed: israel swaps palestinian prisoners for israeli bodies
- i'm still waiting for arafat's $2B to be distributed to his people (off topic; just sayin this could help)
- shaming other arab nations tends to have the opposite effect, as honor (fwiw) is hard to come by

i don't see these 2 cultures as being equally compatible w/ humanity, esp in the treatment of their own. on one hand, israel is a secular state who recognize human rights, women's rights, gay rights. on the other women & gays are lesser people, and worship of the "one true god" is mandatory.

which culture would you rather see blessed?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
i don't see these 2 cultures as being equally compatible w/ humanity, esp in the treatment of their own. on one hand, israel is a secular state who recognize human rights, women's rights, gay rights. on the other women & gays are lesser people, and worship of the "one true god" is mandatory.

which culture would you rather see blessed?
You are equating Palistinian with Hamas. Not one and the same (though election results are noted). Palestinians were once fairly secular. Amazing what several decades more years of conflict and poverty will do... clinging to guns and religion anyone?

I don't see the two cultures as equally compatible with humanity, but Palestine (like Iran) has the ability to be more secular as history has shown... the longer we wait, the harder it will be to re-attain that.

It also sounds to me like you see the current state of affairs appropriately punitive for a culture you disagree with. Sounds a bit crusade-y to me, and also counterproductive to achieving stability for a culture you DO identify with, and positive cultural progress for one that you don't. I hear this a lot... people so fixated on punishing bad behavior that they lose sight of solving long term problems. Cutting off the nose to spite the face, if you will.

As an aside, Jewish orthodoxy ain't so pretty either - though there's not much in there about killing infidels, it's not so kind to women and the gheys.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
You are equating Palistinian with Hamas. Not one and the same (though election results are noted).
the fact that a majority of voting palestinians (we must note dumstruck women may have swayed the tally) found hamas to best represent them is troubling, and i do not believe it's intellectually honest to marginalize that fact
Palestinians were once fairly secular. Amazing what several decades more years of conflict and poverty will do... clinging to guns and religion anyone?
so this is the jews' fault?
It also sounds to me like you see the current state of affairs appropriately punitive for a culture you disagree with. Sounds a bit crusade-y to me,
you'll recall the crusades were in large part a response to muslim aggression. i don't have a problem with israel defending itself, but the degree to which i cannot fully appreciate.
As an aside, Jewish orthodoxy ain't so pretty either - though there's not much in there about killing infidels, it's not so kind to women and the gheys.
i don't suppose comparison of numbers tween the 2 means much to you then.

P1: there were more jews alive before the holocaust than there are today
P2: today's jews are overwhelmingly non-orthodox
C: their current struggle is much more political than religious
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
It seems the rule in the ME to just treat the other guy like crap...each side is equally culpable. I read the book "From Beirut to Jerusalem" when getting ready for the first go round in the Gulf, I learned alot...they have been killing each other for ever there, and it will continue until the guy with sandals, beard and holes in his hands comes back and slaps some sense into them.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
It seems the rule in the ME to just treat the other guy like crap...each side is equally culpable. I read the book "From Beirut to Jerusalem" when getting ready for the first go round in the Gulf, I learned alot...they have been killing each other for ever there, and it will continue until the guy with sandals, beard and holes in his hands comes back and slaps some sense into them.
Yup, both sides are equally as responsible. I do however feel that Israel is pushing to come out on top due to the abuse they are ladling onto the Palestinians.

Walling off an entire set of people and starving them of food and power is not acceptable in any situation.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
For some one who act like they know so much about the conflict, you really don't know some of the most basic things, EGPYT SHARES A BOARDER WITH GAZA, they could let goods through, the only reason that Israel has control over imports and exports is because EGYPT WONT LET ANY THROUGH!!!!
Do you expect Egypt to invade so stuff can get in? Stuff cannot get in because Israel controls ALL imports.

as tempting as it may be to go point-by-point on so much upthread, i'd rather have you (samirol) speculate on a few things in gen'l:
  • would you rather be a jew living in a muslim nation, or a muslim living in a jewish nation?
  • are you aware of any practical "jewish solution" proposed by a disinterested 3rd party?
  • as a cultural norm, do israeli jews teach their kids that palestinians are lesser people?
  • when taken prisoner, is the treatment anywhere close to equal between palis & israeli?
  • do you believe arafat was good or bad for the palestinians?
  • do you believe that if israel were to issue a sweeping mea culpa, complete w/ laying down all offensive arms & agreeing to previously proposed concessions, that there would be peace in the land within this generation?
  • do you believe that sworn allies to the palestinian cause are doing / have done everything w/in their means to help their brothers, or do you believe by & large that palestinians are treated as pawns by their brethren?


being nakedly pro-israel, i honestly don't know what i could propose that's both realistic & dignified to all involved. i don't believe "the solution", if it indeed exists, is a political one, but rather a cultural one. i suppose another holocaust would send a clear message, good for a few decades.
I would rather be a Muslim living in Israel, because Israel is a first-world nation.

The settlers certainly do, but I would say that it depends on the family, like most things.

I'm sure they both rough up their prisoners, but I don't know enough about the prisoner treatment on either side to make a decision.

I think he was corrupt, but he isn't as radical as Hamas.

No, because there would be widespread racism and discrimination, even if a one state solution was possible.

Palestine is an entire Middle East issue, that's how a lot of terrorist groups recruit. Even if they don't really have a lot of interest in Palestine, it gets people riled up. The Palestinian issue is used as a playing card to recruit for terrorist groups, even if the group doesn't have any real interest in Palestine. Who are you specifically referring to when you mean their friends?

The Palestinian issue is a catalyst for intolerance throughout the entire Middle East, and for the Middle East to improve, the issue of Palestine must be resolved in a way that is suitable to both sides.

My feeling is that Hamas is a reaction to the conditions that Israel has put them in. The reason Israel trades prisoners for bodies is because Israel has 10,000+ political prisoners.
 
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$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
"political prisoners"?

you mean like nelson mandela types?

political prisoners.
really.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
Do you expect Egypt to invade so stuff can get in? Stuff cannot get in because Israel controls ALL imports.
What do they need to invade, Egypt could simply OPEN ITS BOARDER!!! You don't seem to understand basic geography, the Gaza Strip had these 2 things right next to it, one of them is called WATER, there is the Mediterranean on 1 side, and the other is this place called Egypt, it is a supposed friend to Palestine unlike Israel. The reason there is an oil line going into Israel is because the Israelis were kind enough to build them, i don't see ANY good going through Egypt.



This is also all I have to say to you about the situation, you clearly do not know enough about it to speak on the subject and believe everything that comes out of al jazeera.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
CBS News 1/24/08 said:
Israel wants to relinquish all responsibility for the Gaza Strip, including the supply of electricity and water, now that the territory's southern border with Egypt has been blown open, Israel's deputy defense minister said Thursday.
You're both wrong. I love it when that happens.

Yahweh forbid any of you check a wiki every once in awhile: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_the_Gaza-Egypt_border_(2008)
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
"political prisoners"?

you mean like nelson mandela types?

political prisoners.
really.


That's what the Canadian version of the AP calls them

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gRW97fg9Zi8Ba4pLty1UH5S0CBuw

You're both wrong. I love it when that happens.

Yahweh forbid any of you check a wiki every once in awhile: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_the_Gaza-Egypt_border_(2008)
of course Israel wants to relinquish it, they took all the water out of the Gaza strip. Egypt doesn't want it because there is already a government there, it is fairly radical and it will be a money sponge. The Gaza strip is a human rights disaster and PR disaster for Israel.
 
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sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
The way you guys are arguing about it, it sounds like Israel is pretty screwed up.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
No, it's just the people who are "pro" Israel are more center, where as the people arguing for Palistine are placing all the blame on Israel.
You are more center than most. Most of the pro-Israel crowd basically justify apartheid because of MUSLIMS
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,669
1,713
chez moi
I'm no massive fan of Israel's. I support their right to exist, but they've made it pretty hard to make a good case for them.

However, the broader Muslim world also wants the Palestineans to be as miserable as possible. It is a great way to focus collective hate on Israel and the US to further their own political ends, and there has never been any real love for the Palestinean people before or after the creation of Israel.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28397813/

GAZA CITY - Israeli aircraft struck Hamas security compounds across Gaza on Saturday in unprecedented waves of simultaneous strikes. Hamas and medics reported that dozens of people were killed and that others were still buried under the rubble.

Meanwhile, Israel said it was ready to step up its military assault on the Gaza Strip, Reuters quoted an aide to Defense Minister Ehud Barak as saying.

"The operation will be pursued and widened as required and subject to (commanders') assessments," the aide told Reuters.

"We are facing a period that will not be simple or easy."

The strikes caused widespread panic and confusion, as black clouds of smoke rose above Gaza. Health Ministry official Moawiya Hassanain said at least 120 people were killed and more than 250 wounded.

In one of the Hamas compounds, bodies of more than a dozen uniformed security officers were seen lying on the ground. One survivor raised his index finger in a show of Muslim faith, uttering a prayer.

Among the dead was the Gaza police chief, Maj. Gen. Tawfiq Jaber, witnesses said.

Hamas officials said all of Gaza's security compounds were destroyed. Hamas said it would seek revenge, including launching new rocket attacks on Israel and sending suicide bombers to Israel.

"Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, speaking on a Gaza radio station.

Israel confirmed it carried out a series of air strikes on Hamas installations, but did not provide details. Israel has warned in recent days it would strike back hard against continued rocket fire from Gaza on Israeli border towns. There was no sign of an Israel ground offensive, in parallel to the air attacks.

Israel urged Israelis living near Gaza to seek refuge in secure locations, in apparent anticipation of Hamas rocket fire.

The first round of air strikes came just before noon, and several more waves followed.

Hamas security compounds are often located in civilian areas.

The first air strikes took place as children were leaving school.


Plumes of black smoke rose over Gaza City, sirens wailed through the streets and women frantically looked for their children.

One man sat in the middle of a Gaza City street, close to a security compound, alternately slapping his face and covering his head with dust from the bombed-out building. "My son is gone, my son is gone," wailed Sadi Masri, 57.

The shopkeeper said he sent his son out to purchase cigarettes minutes before the airstrikes began and now could not find him. "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn," Masri moaned.

Civilians rushed to the targeted areas, trying to move the wounded in their cars to hospitals.

Television footage showed Gaza City hospitals crowded with people, civilians rushing in wounded people in cars, vans and ambulances.

"We are treating people on the floor, in the corridors. We have no more space. We don't know who is here and what the priority is to treat," said one doctor who hung up the phone before identifying himself at Shifa Hosptial, Gaza's main treatment center.

In the West Bank, Hamas' rival, moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said in a statement that he "condemns this aggression" and calls for restraint, according to an aide, Nabil Abu Rdeneh.

Israel has targeted Gaza in the past, but the number of simultaneous attacks was unprecedented.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Israel’s siege of Gaza, largely unseen by the outside world because of Jerusalem’s refusal to allow humanitarian aid workers, reporters and photographers access to Gaza, rivals the most egregious crimes carried out at the height of apartheid by the South African regime. It comes close to the horrors visited on Sarajevo by the Bosnian Serbs. It has disturbing echoes of the Nazi ghettos of Lodz and Warsaw.
This is OT but I couldn't resist.

This piece is saying that the Bosnian Serbs are the champions of evil.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Up to 155 killed now according to reuters and the CBC. Israel at it again. Maybe one day they will figure out what responding with "appropriate force" means. Way to try and broker peace and take the high road. Idiots.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Israel did break the truce on November 4th, and Hamas didn't react even while food, fuel, and water was restricted during the truce.