I've 4k to kick around. Investment options?
- Thread starter Arkayne
- Start date
Commodities taking big hits right now are actually not a product of the poor economy. With the equity and fixed sectors both taking a dive (equity pricing down, fixed yields down) money had to go somewhere and the cmdty sector is where a lot of it landed. In doing so it took relatively stable cmdty prices and sent them ballistic. Gold is the highest it's been (inflation adjusted) since the 1980's. Most of this gain is in speculators assuming the dollar will continue to drop. Many players who buy product in foreign currency have gotten into the gold market because it's growth has been steadily outpacing most FX (currency rates) and it gets you out of the dollar (steadily declining). When you buy gold with USD, you now have a currency that is not dependant on the dollar from which you can sell into other currencies and buy your products. You also have the "omg there is going to be a great depression like collapse" folk who are whording bullion (rightly to a certain extent). what we saw last week with the 10% overnight drop was the smart money getting out of oil and gold after reaping large profits and going back into the equity markets because short-term it looks like we might have hit a bottom. Oil is a speculative monster that runs somewhat counter to the condition of the overall market. If oil is up, equities are down and vice-versa.You know the economy isn't doing well when commodities like gold and oil are taking major hits. I have an online only savings account with HSBC. When I opened it, my interest was 6.02%. VERY high for a savings account. Over the last 4 months, that interest has been declining. I got a letter of notification the other day that the interest had dipped to just below 4%
At this point I'm going to keep all my money in my bedroom at sleep with it. At least I won't get AIDS.
As for your savings account, if it is dropping below 4%, it might be worth looking into another bank. CD's and HY savings typically have a mix of Treasuries and Muni's (auction rate securities - the ones in the news lately) backing their advertised yield. With Muni's getting harder to trade, you HY savings rates will drop to ~.5% below the 30yr treasury, which is the highest yielding safe secutirty (currently 4.39%). If you are getting below that mark, you are getting taken advantage of. It took me 10min to find a Wamu account putting out 4%. This has same-day cash access as well. If you are getting less than that rate and you need to wait 4 days for your cash, it's time to find another bank.
ding ding! we have a winner. The kind of girl who would stick their crotch in your face for a dollar isn't the kind of girl I'd want to be within earshot of. I definitely would NOT want to have her gyrating STD farm she calls a "snapper" in my face.
But I will give you credit for the George Carlin reference.
Financial planning diatribe: This is going to be long winded with some bits of opinion on saving, but in whole it is good advice for anyone looking to save money towards their future. Hopefully this also highlights to those not saving the importance of doing such, so that they might start proactively saving towards their future.
Financial Professional or Doing it yourself?
First, if you plan on saving money towards your future, but are not in the financial industry nor have the time to dedicate to learning how to safely and effectively manage your money (~10 hrs/week, with an initial time outlay of 20+ for 2-3 months while getting educated) go find a good financial advisor. What makes a good financial advisor? I was asked this about a year ago and my response was:
“Ask them their background. Where they went to school, what was their major? Do they have an MBA? Are they a CFA? How long have you been doing this? What did you do prior to becoming a portfolio manager? Do you have any marks/notes on your securities licenses? What licenses do you have? *If they do not have a series 66, walk. That is fudiciary responsibility. They are legally responsible for giving good advice. Grill them hard.
Argue their commission rate. Make them prove their mettle. Also, if someone tries to put you into a WRAP account, find out what their per trade (in and out - aka round trip) cost is. Ask them how many trades they are planning to do regarding re-balances. Then do the math. If you have 25,000$ and the fee is 2.5%, they need to cover $625 in commission. If their commission is $15 each way, that's ~42 trades. I'm an active trader, and that's a lot of trades.
Just be smart and don't get over whelmed. Start reading business magazines and the Journal. Information is your friend.”
Information will always help you with investing. If you are planning on doing it on your own, you need to read two books before you put a dollar into the market:
Security Analysis by Benjamin Graham
The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham
These are the two books that can be considered the bible of Value investing. Warren Buffett describes The Intelligent Investor as "the best book on investing ever written." These two books will allow you to learn how to read financials, value companies, but most importantly, if you take them to heart, teach you to remove greed and attachment and allow you to invest properly without emotion. If you are planning on investing directly into Fixed Income securities as well, read Fabozzi’s The Handbook of Fixed Income Securities. These three books should take about 1-2 months to finish and understand. I recommend reading them multiple times and taking copious amounts of notes. They are extremely hard books to read, so dedicate time and patience.
Start saving: Do you have debt?
While reading these, you can proactively start getting yourself ready to invest by starting your savings. The first and most important part of investing is not paying interest. If your have outstanding credit cards, car payments, or second mortgages on you home you are better off aggressively paying off your debt. No matter how good you do in the market, if you are paying interest you are cutting your returns and the amount of money you can invest/save. Ex: You have $5, 0000 in credit card debt at 12% annually. If you do not pay down the principle on this card, you are paying over $600/year in interest, and the interest is compounding on the interest. If you have $5,000 to invest, you can safely assume you will make 4% annually, or $200. This translates into a cost of $400 annually to invest $5,000 while maintaining a $5000 debt. If you pay it off instead of investing the funds, you now have $0, but you are UP $400 or 8% on your investment.
The best plan of action when paying off debt is paying off your higher interest rate debt first, as it costs you the most money. If you have the ability, try to consolidate higher rate debt onto lower rate cards. It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul, but if you can have the self-control to not buy that new bike and get out from under yourself you will be better in the long run. Once you have consolidated your debt down, get onto your computer. Use Excel and create a spreadsheet with all of your debt, the interest rate, and your REALISTIC post-tax income. To figure out your realistic post-tax income, subtract from your income: your rent/mtge payment, cell phone bill, gas bill, etc (your required bills) My must pay bills are the list under Fig1.
Fig1:
Rent:
Cable
PG&E
phone
Storage
Dry Cleaning
Gym Membership
Insurance
Earthquake Insurance **Quarterly
Once you have your Realistic income, figure out what your ABSOLUTE cost of living is: food, gas, bus pass, etc and add 10% onto that. This is your usable funds for the month. Be VERY frugal when spending, otherwise you will run out of money. And it sucks when you do.
Now that you have these two numbers, subtract the Absolute cost from your Realistic income. This is your debt funds. Allocate this to pay the minimums on your debt, with the remainder going to the debt with the highest interest rate. Repeat monthly until you have no debt left. Once your debt is gone, you can begin saving.
Financial Professional or Doing it yourself?
First, if you plan on saving money towards your future, but are not in the financial industry nor have the time to dedicate to learning how to safely and effectively manage your money (~10 hrs/week, with an initial time outlay of 20+ for 2-3 months while getting educated) go find a good financial advisor. What makes a good financial advisor? I was asked this about a year ago and my response was:
“Ask them their background. Where they went to school, what was their major? Do they have an MBA? Are they a CFA? How long have you been doing this? What did you do prior to becoming a portfolio manager? Do you have any marks/notes on your securities licenses? What licenses do you have? *If they do not have a series 66, walk. That is fudiciary responsibility. They are legally responsible for giving good advice. Grill them hard.
Argue their commission rate. Make them prove their mettle. Also, if someone tries to put you into a WRAP account, find out what their per trade (in and out - aka round trip) cost is. Ask them how many trades they are planning to do regarding re-balances. Then do the math. If you have 25,000$ and the fee is 2.5%, they need to cover $625 in commission. If their commission is $15 each way, that's ~42 trades. I'm an active trader, and that's a lot of trades.
Just be smart and don't get over whelmed. Start reading business magazines and the Journal. Information is your friend.”
Information will always help you with investing. If you are planning on doing it on your own, you need to read two books before you put a dollar into the market:
Security Analysis by Benjamin Graham
The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham
These are the two books that can be considered the bible of Value investing. Warren Buffett describes The Intelligent Investor as "the best book on investing ever written." These two books will allow you to learn how to read financials, value companies, but most importantly, if you take them to heart, teach you to remove greed and attachment and allow you to invest properly without emotion. If you are planning on investing directly into Fixed Income securities as well, read Fabozzi’s The Handbook of Fixed Income Securities. These three books should take about 1-2 months to finish and understand. I recommend reading them multiple times and taking copious amounts of notes. They are extremely hard books to read, so dedicate time and patience.
Start saving: Do you have debt?
While reading these, you can proactively start getting yourself ready to invest by starting your savings. The first and most important part of investing is not paying interest. If your have outstanding credit cards, car payments, or second mortgages on you home you are better off aggressively paying off your debt. No matter how good you do in the market, if you are paying interest you are cutting your returns and the amount of money you can invest/save. Ex: You have $5, 0000 in credit card debt at 12% annually. If you do not pay down the principle on this card, you are paying over $600/year in interest, and the interest is compounding on the interest. If you have $5,000 to invest, you can safely assume you will make 4% annually, or $200. This translates into a cost of $400 annually to invest $5,000 while maintaining a $5000 debt. If you pay it off instead of investing the funds, you now have $0, but you are UP $400 or 8% on your investment.
The best plan of action when paying off debt is paying off your higher interest rate debt first, as it costs you the most money. If you have the ability, try to consolidate higher rate debt onto lower rate cards. It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul, but if you can have the self-control to not buy that new bike and get out from under yourself you will be better in the long run. Once you have consolidated your debt down, get onto your computer. Use Excel and create a spreadsheet with all of your debt, the interest rate, and your REALISTIC post-tax income. To figure out your realistic post-tax income, subtract from your income: your rent/mtge payment, cell phone bill, gas bill, etc (your required bills) My must pay bills are the list under Fig1.
Fig1:
Rent:
Cable
PG&E
phone
Storage
Dry Cleaning
Gym Membership
Insurance
Earthquake Insurance **Quarterly
Once you have your Realistic income, figure out what your ABSOLUTE cost of living is: food, gas, bus pass, etc and add 10% onto that. This is your usable funds for the month. Be VERY frugal when spending, otherwise you will run out of money. And it sucks when you do.
Now that you have these two numbers, subtract the Absolute cost from your Realistic income. This is your debt funds. Allocate this to pay the minimums on your debt, with the remainder going to the debt with the highest interest rate. Repeat monthly until you have no debt left. Once your debt is gone, you can begin saving.
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Start Saving: Yeah! I have no debt!
Congratulations, you have no debt. You have made it past the hardest part of investing, which is exhibiting the self-control to not borrow money. This self-control can only help you in the future when you need to make hard decisions regarding your investments.
Saving for your investments comes in a few forms: 401k, Roth/Traditional IRA, Cash Savings, Taxable Accounts.
If you have a 401k from your company, find out if they match your contributions and if so, how much. Company matching is free money.
Ex: my company matches 50% up to 15% of my income (capped at $15,500), or 7.5% of my income (up to $15,500). If I max this, I just made an additional 7.5% on my salary by helping myself out. I don’t even have to work any harder. Not to shabby of a deal.
Once you know what your company gives you, spreadsheet it. Excel is a wonderful tool. *I will be adding a document that already has this added* Max your 401k out. You can legally take $15,500 out of your income pre-tax for a 401k. This should be your first step in saving. Some people are hesitant to save for retirement when they are young, but given the current plight of social security we must assume that by the time most of us hit retirement age, social security will be a thing of the past. Figure out how much you need to put in monthly to hit the max on your 401k. $15,500/12= $1,291.66 per month. For context, if you make $60k/yr, you can max out your 401k, assuming a 30% tax bracket, and still have $2,595 post tax monthly. The spreadsheet shows how much additional money you MAKE by saving instead of spending, and it doesn’t even account for long-term time growth of money.
Putting money into your 401k is only part of the task; you also need to make your selections. For this I will refer you to a financial professional, as your risk tolerances will vary and they can help with your decisions. If you are doing it on your own, use the principles you learned from Graham to select your holdings.
The next step after a 401k is to max out your IRA. Like the 401k, there is a contribution limit. You can only contribute $5,000 per year tax exempt. These are post-tax funds that you will be removed from your taxable income when filing your taxes. You can contribute more, but only $5,000 is tax-exempt. There are two types of IRA accounts: Roth IRA’s and Traditional IRA’s. Roth IRA’s are for individuals making less than $101,000 annually as a single person. **see post two down for additional details** When you take funds out of these accounts at age 65, you will not get taxed as it was taxed when you put it in. **this is assuming Congress does not change their laws regarding taxation**. The traditional is for those making greater than $101,000 annually. You will get taxed at regular income rate when you take funds out at 65. Unlike 401k’s, when you put funds into an IRA, they deposit as cash. You need to decide how you will invest these funds. Because IRA’s are only taxed upon withdraw, these accounts are perfect for trading. You will not get taxed on capital gains, so it you want to do some speculative trading (note, trading is different than investing) this is the perfect place to do it. However, you never want to speculate with more that 5% of your invest-able assets.
Once you have maxed your IRA, you’ll want to set aside cash savings. I usually recommend 10% PRE-tax funds, however your income will determine your ability to do this. These funds are to be set aside as cash or cash equivalents. You will want to use these funds as your down payment for a new home, to purchase a new car, your new bike, etc. This is also your emergency fund. If you lose your job today, these funds will be your fallback. It is always good to keep this in mind when you are looking at that new thing you want. I usually pull a small amount out of my “livable” funds monthly to save up and buy “want” items.
Congratulations, you have no debt. You have made it past the hardest part of investing, which is exhibiting the self-control to not borrow money. This self-control can only help you in the future when you need to make hard decisions regarding your investments.
Saving for your investments comes in a few forms: 401k, Roth/Traditional IRA, Cash Savings, Taxable Accounts.
If you have a 401k from your company, find out if they match your contributions and if so, how much. Company matching is free money.
Ex: my company matches 50% up to 15% of my income (capped at $15,500), or 7.5% of my income (up to $15,500). If I max this, I just made an additional 7.5% on my salary by helping myself out. I don’t even have to work any harder. Not to shabby of a deal.
Once you know what your company gives you, spreadsheet it. Excel is a wonderful tool. *I will be adding a document that already has this added* Max your 401k out. You can legally take $15,500 out of your income pre-tax for a 401k. This should be your first step in saving. Some people are hesitant to save for retirement when they are young, but given the current plight of social security we must assume that by the time most of us hit retirement age, social security will be a thing of the past. Figure out how much you need to put in monthly to hit the max on your 401k. $15,500/12= $1,291.66 per month. For context, if you make $60k/yr, you can max out your 401k, assuming a 30% tax bracket, and still have $2,595 post tax monthly. The spreadsheet shows how much additional money you MAKE by saving instead of spending, and it doesn’t even account for long-term time growth of money.
Putting money into your 401k is only part of the task; you also need to make your selections. For this I will refer you to a financial professional, as your risk tolerances will vary and they can help with your decisions. If you are doing it on your own, use the principles you learned from Graham to select your holdings.
The next step after a 401k is to max out your IRA. Like the 401k, there is a contribution limit. You can only contribute $5,000 per year tax exempt. These are post-tax funds that you will be removed from your taxable income when filing your taxes. You can contribute more, but only $5,000 is tax-exempt. There are two types of IRA accounts: Roth IRA’s and Traditional IRA’s. Roth IRA’s are for individuals making less than $101,000 annually as a single person. **see post two down for additional details** When you take funds out of these accounts at age 65, you will not get taxed as it was taxed when you put it in. **this is assuming Congress does not change their laws regarding taxation**. The traditional is for those making greater than $101,000 annually. You will get taxed at regular income rate when you take funds out at 65. Unlike 401k’s, when you put funds into an IRA, they deposit as cash. You need to decide how you will invest these funds. Because IRA’s are only taxed upon withdraw, these accounts are perfect for trading. You will not get taxed on capital gains, so it you want to do some speculative trading (note, trading is different than investing) this is the perfect place to do it. However, you never want to speculate with more that 5% of your invest-able assets.
Once you have maxed your IRA, you’ll want to set aside cash savings. I usually recommend 10% PRE-tax funds, however your income will determine your ability to do this. These funds are to be set aside as cash or cash equivalents. You will want to use these funds as your down payment for a new home, to purchase a new car, your new bike, etc. This is also your emergency fund. If you lose your job today, these funds will be your fallback. It is always good to keep this in mind when you are looking at that new thing you want. I usually pull a small amount out of my “livable” funds monthly to save up and buy “want” items.
Investing:
Once you have money saved and have read Graham, it’s time to begin investing. The big things to remember are sell high, buy low. Repeat this to yourself MANY times. Always take profits. Look at the financials and fundamentals of the companies you are interested in investing in. Are they “the next big thing?” or a speculative idea that the whole world and its bandwagon is jumping in on?
There are a few basics for investing:
Stocks/Equity: The most commonly referred to form of investing. Usually you will buy shares of a single company. You need to understand the financials of a company well to invest in single security names.
Mutual Funds: Professional money managers investing in many companies. You will pay fees for their experience. For the most unskilled investor, this is the best way to invest, but know that there are often penalties for withdrawing funds before the allocated time period (usually 7yrs).
ETF’s (Exchange Traded Funds): The future of investing for educated investors. They allow you the diversification of a Mutual fund, but without the fees. You just need to choose what sector you want to invest in. They trade like stocks, so they are very liquid as well.
Fixed Income: Bonds, these are bought in lots of $1000 (1 bond =$1,000). You buy these for the steady income (yield) and payout at par ($1,000). The price and yield are inversely correlated, as the price goes down, the yield goes up. You want to buy bonds at low price/high yield and sell when the price goes up. When the price of bonds is high, equities are usually going down, so it’s the right time to buy equities.
Mutual Funds are a good way to take on Fixed exposure, as buying single bonds is costly. Pimco is one of the best Fixed Income funds and has been for years.
You will see people recommend shorting occasionally, and with that I urge the greatest caution. When shorting, you have effectively limitless losses, with limited gain. I am a financial professional, and I rarely, VERY rarely short. When I do, it is done with the 5% trading/speculation cash.
I will not recommend a “good place to invest”, but give you good pointers. Talk to a financial advisor if you can. Go see many; it’s easy to find a bull****ter. Find someone who has the background to be an advisor, not a sales person. Ask them what investment models they use. Do they follow the Graham/Dodd methodology?
For the solo investors, the book is your friend, there is a reason Buffet invests by its model.
I’m sure I left a lot of questions, just let me know where. It’s early and I’m not fully awake yet.
Once you have money saved and have read Graham, it’s time to begin investing. The big things to remember are sell high, buy low. Repeat this to yourself MANY times. Always take profits. Look at the financials and fundamentals of the companies you are interested in investing in. Are they “the next big thing?” or a speculative idea that the whole world and its bandwagon is jumping in on?
There are a few basics for investing:
Stocks/Equity: The most commonly referred to form of investing. Usually you will buy shares of a single company. You need to understand the financials of a company well to invest in single security names.
Mutual Funds: Professional money managers investing in many companies. You will pay fees for their experience. For the most unskilled investor, this is the best way to invest, but know that there are often penalties for withdrawing funds before the allocated time period (usually 7yrs).
ETF’s (Exchange Traded Funds): The future of investing for educated investors. They allow you the diversification of a Mutual fund, but without the fees. You just need to choose what sector you want to invest in. They trade like stocks, so they are very liquid as well.
Fixed Income: Bonds, these are bought in lots of $1000 (1 bond =$1,000). You buy these for the steady income (yield) and payout at par ($1,000). The price and yield are inversely correlated, as the price goes down, the yield goes up. You want to buy bonds at low price/high yield and sell when the price goes up. When the price of bonds is high, equities are usually going down, so it’s the right time to buy equities.
Mutual Funds are a good way to take on Fixed exposure, as buying single bonds is costly. Pimco is one of the best Fixed Income funds and has been for years.
You will see people recommend shorting occasionally, and with that I urge the greatest caution. When shorting, you have effectively limitless losses, with limited gain. I am a financial professional, and I rarely, VERY rarely short. When I do, it is done with the 5% trading/speculation cash.
I will not recommend a “good place to invest”, but give you good pointers. Talk to a financial advisor if you can. Go see many; it’s easy to find a bull****ter. Find someone who has the background to be an advisor, not a sales person. Ask them what investment models they use. Do they follow the Graham/Dodd methodology?
For the solo investors, the book is your friend, there is a reason Buffet invests by its model.
I’m sure I left a lot of questions, just let me know where. It’s early and I’m not fully awake yet.
^^^ huh? what the heck?
Awesome post by Joker.
I dislike strippers as well. Another phrase for strippers is "junkie with issues."
I dislike strippers as well. Another phrase for strippers is "junkie with issues."
Thanks for taking the time to put together that info for us.Start Saving:nip:
Btw, I just read that Roth IRA yearly income cap for 2008 is $101k for singles.
You are correct. I will change to reflect.
The 2008 phase-out rules for persons with a high earned income are as follows:
Single:
If your income tax filing status is single, your Roth IRA contribution limit is reduced when your adjusted gross income is more than $101,000. Your contribution limit is zero when your adjusted gross income reaches $116,000.
Married Filing Jointly:
Married persons filing jointly will have a reduced contribution limit for each persons Roth IRA if their adjusted gross income exceeds $159,000. If their adjusted gross income reaches $169,000, each persons contribution limit is zero.
Married filing separately and living apart:
If you are married but file separately and have lived apart from your spouse for the entire tax year, your Roth IRA contribution amount will be reduced if your adjusted gross income is more than $101,000. You Roth IRA contribution limit will be eliminated if your adjusted gross income reaches $116,000.
Married filing separately and lived with your spouse:
If you are married filing separately and lived with your spouse at any time during the tax year, your Roth IRA contribution amount will be reduced when your adjusted gross income exceeds $0.00 and will be completely eliminated when your adjusted gross income reaches $10,000.
Roth IRA.
I bought starbucks.....back in 1993
Don't buy stocks, you'll lose your ass.
I bought starbucks.....back in 1993
Don't buy stocks, you'll lose your ass.
You broke the cardinal rule in investing: buy low, sell high.Roth IRA.
I bought starbucks.....back in 1993
Don't buy stocks, you'll lose your ass.
As for "losing your ass", read Graham's books. Your life as an investor will change.
PM me with your email, I will send you the doc and the excel sheet I referenced.
My life as investor changed when I finally grew up and got a financial advisor. I spent 10 really solid earning years going up and going down. I was too stubborn to get an advisor, figuring I was just giving them a cut of my money.
Then I woke up and realized that my portfolio, while earning money every year, was just barely beating the indexes, sometimes coming in under.
I got an advisor and since then I have solidly beaten the markets, even in this crappy market. The key is to get out of individual stocks. Everything I have is in funds and I am well diversified and doing great.
Oh, and I sold Starbucks back in ~2000 for an easy 500%+ profit. But I can also show you some scary stocks that I owned.
Put as much away as early as you can so you can retire early and ride your bike every day. That is the plan.
Stupid idea.
You shoulda bought uncut coke and mixed it with powdered lidocaine down to 5:1.
Sold it for loads.
House? Pffft! Beginner's mistake
As much as that appeals to me... he did ask for "investment" advice.
House = Garage = Meth Lab = Profit!
Do you know how much you could have made had you listened to me!!!
Sadly, I haven't been trading much over the past year... so I missed out too!!!
So true. No I'm getting violated with my shorts.Do you know how much you could have made had you listened to me!!!
Sadly, I haven't been trading much over the past year... so I missed out too!!!
Doug Kass called the top. QE is ending in ~3 weeks. Time to get your shorts in.
I had moved my 401K into bonds back before the dive. The market reminded me of the scenes in Boogie Nights were they are doing dope. In 12/08 I moved back to volatile ETFs and have made well over 40%. Now I getting ready to go back to bonds or treasurys. The market is pumped on bailouts and manipulation, with nothing to back it up and the commercial real estate crash is coming. Then I'm getting back in. Isn't this fun? I'm not a financial whiz by any stretch, I just read the financial news with a bit of common sense.
Everybody's looking for that second dip in order to jump in. So if someone thinks the market is going to go down 20%, they're going to start buying at -15%, more at -18%, some at -20%, some at -18%, and the last at -15%. However, someone else is seeing that and figuring on buying at -13% and ride it down to -17% before it bounces back up. Then some mutual fund wants to start jumping in at -10% in order to beat the other people getting in, and you have what's been going on the last couple weeks or so. Whether the profit-taking will overpower the people trying to get in is still up in the air. Yes, the economy sucks right about now, but the market is always a forward-looking indicator. If you wait till the economy recovers, you've missed the rally.
That said, a good diversification between stocks (growth and value), bonds (stable and corporate), cash, commodities and some inflation protection will probably ride out the current turmoil the best. Betting entirely on either inflation or deflation could set you up for a world of hurt if the economic situation goes against you.
That said, a good diversification between stocks (growth and value), bonds (stable and corporate), cash, commodities and some inflation protection will probably ride out the current turmoil the best. Betting entirely on either inflation or deflation could set you up for a world of hurt if the economic situation goes against you.
Has anyone suggested sending it to me yet??? 
The 4% accounts were from 2 years ago....
That's what I figured...maybe it's mutual fund time
