[Squid]

Ok, I've never been dirt jumping, but I plan to give it a try if this snow ever melts. I have a question, though:

When I watch dirt jumpers in vids, they take off from a fairly steep launch ramp, and then in the air the bike rotates forward to match the angle of the transition.

Also, at the skatepark I have watched people launch out of near vertical ramps or bowls, and then land flat on the deck.

My question is: how is this rotation accomplished???

1) It just happens because the front wheel clears the lip first, and with no support starts to rotate forward

2) Unconcious movement or weight shift on the riders part

3) Requires a concious effort to rotate the bike

4) Use the force

5) Weight of the rider pretty much stays vertical, and the bike changes angles to match the launch/landing ramps

6) Other

I've launched off some kinda steep stuff before, maybe a 45 degree angle, and always end up landing correctly, but thats to flat. Only a 45 degree forward rotation, but it just seems to happen. With dirt jumps, it seems like it'd be over 90 degrees of rotation. I dont want to get out there and discover it's something I have to try and do, and not know how to do it.

 

[pnj]

it's all a conscious effort.

if you can bunnyhop it's similar to when you push your front end down to pull up your rear wheel.


You do this off a lip in the same manner. You want to stay centered over the bike so when you need to push the front end down to match the transition you will be landing in, you can.

If you've never jumped I would suggest starting out small.

practice on anything too. if you have a lip that goes to a flat landing (like at a skatepark) practice landing both wheels at the same time.

You can practice jumping into banks and stuff too. just bunnyhop at the top and push your front end down to match the transition.

just don't keep your body weight so far forward that you go over the bars if you mess up a bit.

really, it's just practice.

 

[Mudpuppy]

I second what Pnj said. That's some good advice.

It's not hard to do just practice a bit before going big. It's really something you just do, like bunnyhopping but much easier.

I think hopping down into stuff and matching the downward slope will be better practice than jumping out of stuff at the skatepark. I feel it's closer to the motion used on dirtjumps.

 

[Squid]

Ok... I know what you mean about hopping down into stuff... I see people do it all the time, dropping into a ramp, or a bowl, or whatever, kinda bunnyhop off the deck and land matched up to the transition.

I tried it once but failed to get my front wheel down, so i ended up bunnyhopping off into a small bowl, and landing rear wheel first, then the front dropped about 2" to meet the tranny More like launching off a ledge than anything.

Whats the secret there? Go slower, exaggerate pushing the front down and pulling the back up?

 

[Echo]

The secret is being balanced over the bike, once you have the feel for that you can move the bike around and it's easy to get back to the balance point for the landing.

It's also easier to do tricks and stuff once you are controlling your bike in the air instead of just being a passenger waiting to land

 

[Squid]

Originally posted by Echo
It's also easier to do tricks and stuff once you are controlling your bike in the air instead of just being a passenger waiting to land

What're you saying?!??? :angry: "This is Squid Air on final approach... we advise you brace for a rough landing...."

 

[pnj]

yea, the secret is being balanced.

the answer to the question "how do I get to the point where I am balanced in the air?" is

practice.

there is no real "secret" to balance. it's a learned response.

just as riding a bike on a sidewalk is a learned response(that may not be the correct terminology...)

you can't really explain to someone how to balance on two wheels. you can say if you start to fall to the left, turn to the left.

but the balance comes from practice.


and as I mentioned before, you don't really need to practice on dirt jumps (allthough it's nice). just practice bunnyhopping up, over and down stuff.
sidewalk curb cuts can be used to jump into and out of.
try bunnyhopping from the street into the curb cut. try to place your front tire in the tranny when you land.
they are kinda short but it should help you learn how to get the nose dive thing down.

now get off the computer and go ride!

 

[Squid]

Originally posted by pnj
try bunnyhopping from the street into the curb cut. try to place your front tire in the tranny when you land.
they are kinda short but it should help you learn how to get the nose dive thing down.

now get off the computer and go ride!

I'm not sure I follow... you mean like where the curb dips down to street level for a driveway or something? So I'd bunnyhop up to the curb, but with the front wheel landing on the downward slope as it comes back to street level???

I wish I could go ride, but its 3 degrees outside, and about a foot of snow! I couldn't find a clean curb if I tried!

But, I plan to practice in the little bowl at the skatepark tonight, if my ankle is up to the task.


Thanks all, for the advice!

 

[pnj]

curb cut = driveways and wheelchair ramps. you know, those things you use to launch you into the street.

I'm not sure if i explained that very well.

you will go from the street onto the sidewalk.
so you bunnyhop just before the curb cut and push your front wheel down onto the sidewalk where the driveway section is a jump. you are basicly jumping it backwards from how you might normaly jump it. from the sidewalk to the street. you going from the street, via a bunnyhop, onto the sidewalk.

but if there's snow all over the ground I guess it doesn't really matter.....

 

[Squid]

Ok, gotcha. First, I need to practice the bunnyhops a bit more so I can clear a curb with confidence. My old BMX bike was light, and it bunnyhopped very well, but my new one (and my mtn bike) are heavy, and I dont do so well bunnyhopping. I'll so some practicing in the skatepark, and maybe I'll have it down by the time this place thaws. Thanks!

 

[563 740]

If you've ever hit drops to tranny, it's very much the same motion. Just shifting weight forward and matching the bike's angle w/ the ground angle. It's not always a natural response at first, but is very easily learned. Before you know it you'll be doing it instinctively.

 

[zibbler]

Hmmm... I've always wondered about this stuff too. I've started doing some jumping (little 3 foot jumps to flat) and always wondered how to land on a tranny or move the bike around in the air and still land right. I'm the classic "dead sailor" when I jump and don't know how to overcome it. The last jump I did I somehow ended up sidways and didn't have the presence of mind or know how to straighten myself out. Needless to say this resulted in a crash and a nasty gash to my ankle from my pedal. Any tips?

 

[pnj]

Originally posted by zibbler
Hmmm... I've always wondered about this stuff too. I've started doing some jumping (little 3 foot jumps to flat) and always wondered how to land on a tranny or move the bike around in the air and still land right. I'm the classic "dead sailor" when I jump and don't know how to overcome it. The last jump I did I somehow ended up sidways and didn't have the presence of mind or know how to straighten myself out. Needless to say this resulted in a crash and a nasty gash to my ankle from my pedal. Any tips?

the only thing I can say that hasn't been said already is practice.

lower your seat too. if you have your seat so high that you can't move around over your bike it's going to be alot harder to learn.

the suggestion of riding off drops to tranny is good as it teaches you how to push your front end down. don't do this from a wheelie drop though. learn to ride off drops by pulling up the front end while standing and NOT pedaling to get the front end up.

again, there are no real secrets. just get out there and practice and practice and practice.

other than the suggestions mentioned I would say to start small.
find a drop that your comfortable with and learn to ride off of it. then work your way up.
practice bunnyhops. you can do this while your just rolling down the street/sidewalk. or when your on the trai and it's flat.

try and find other riders that are better than you too.

good luck.

 

[Echo]

Good point, riding with people who are better than me is probably the single most significant reason my jumping has improved. And it's not like I'm asking them how they do it, just watching over and over I start to get a feel for it. Plus they give me ideas for stuff to try.

 

[Squid]

Well, I've never hit a drop to tranny either, but I was hoping this whole thing would apply to that as well

Progress update: I hit the skatepark last night. My ankle is kinda messed up from a retarded fall off the deck of a ramp a couple weeks ago, so I've been taking it easy, no jumping or hard impacts.

Anyway, I decided to practice this bunnyhopping down into a tranny stuff. We have a street course with a tabletop box sorta thing.... shallow ramp up, flat, shallow ramp down. I started practicing on that, and got so I could roll across the top, then a little bunny hop and smoothly match the transition.

I tried one of the small concrete bowls as well with some success. This bowl was the site of my previous failed attempt at just this very thing.

Anyway, I feel like I've made some progress, and as my ankle gets better, I'll start going a little bigger with it. For example, enough speed to completely clear the table top and land on the tranny. Most of the decent guys at the park use this technique to drop in on halfpipes and stuff, roll up to the coping, then the bunnyhop to clear it and land very smoothly matched up to the tranny.

 

[Squid]

Originally posted by zibbler
Hmmm... I've always wondered about this stuff too. I've started doing some jumping (little 3 foot jumps to flat) and always wondered how to land on a tranny or move the bike around in the air and still land right. I'm the classic "dead sailor" when I jump and don't know how to overcome it. The last jump I did I somehow ended up sidways and didn't have the presence of mind or know how to straighten myself out. Needless to say this resulted in a crash and a nasty gash to my ankle from my pedal. Any tips?

Zibbler, I'm pretty much in the same boat. I've jumped small stuff before (to flat) and done small (< 2') drops to flat, but thats it. The rest of the Rochester Monkies are very good, including Gee Spot and MtBknGrl, both of whom make me look pretty lame when we're out riding. They also all ride FS freeride bikes, and they jump/drop some pretty big stuff. Now, I'll gradually get better and go bigger, but I have a hardtail, and for me to do some of the stuff they do, I will have to be VERY smooth and have this jumping/drop thing down cold, or I'll hurt myself a lot. I think 7" of travel has a bit more margin for error than 0"!

Anyway, my point is, I intend to learn to do this right (part of the reason I want a hardtail in the first place), so if anything helps me in the learning process I'll pass it along, and vice versa, ok?

So far the biggest help has been the skatepark, and advice from more skilled riders. Nice, dry, warm (not that you have to worry about that down there ) place to practice with LOTS of varied terrain to practice things on. And there's a lot of good riders there to give me pointers.

 

[zibbler]

Originally posted by Squid
Anyway, my point is, I intend to learn to do this right (part of the reason I want a hardtail in the first place), so if anything helps me in the learning process I'll pass it along, and vice versa, ok?

Sounds like a plan Stan. All the freeriders down here have been hanging out at the newly built freeride section of our local trail. I don't know any of them personally, but have watched them jump. I still don't know how they do what they do though. The big difference is that they all have big hucking machines. Most of them have bikes like Bullit, RM9, FOES, Kapriel etc. I can't do a whole lot of stuff on my Juli cuz she's a trail bike built up lite, not a hucking machine. That's why I want the Heckler with a longer travel fork. I think that would help a whole lot. For now I'll have to stick to the baby jumps and try and get a feel for jumping.

 

[Squid]

Zibbler, can you bunnyhop? That seems to be an integral part of jumping. It seems like that's what allows you to control how your bike leaves the ramp. I mean, once its in the air, your overall center of gravity and its rotation will be unalterable, because you have nothing to push off of. Of course you can move the bike around, but if you are leaned too far back, you're screwed.

In motocross, often you'll see the rider lock the back wheel in midair and use the wheel's rotational inertia to rotate the bike forward. I dont know if that works on bikes which have less mass in the wheel, but on a bike it seems like you have much more control of how you take off from the ramp, and the bunnyhop seems to be a big part of that.

Anywho, I can bunnyhop a little. Not very well, but that's what I'm working on. If you can't do that yet, that might be a good thing to work on. I believe Pnj and Mudpuppy mentioned that above, and after my experimentation at the skatepark, I'm starting to see how that plays a big role. I mean, if you just lock yourself onto the bike and hit the ramp, you leave at whatever angle/rotation the ramp gives you, while the bunnyhop allows you to impart your own rotation and balance.

I dont know if that made sense or not, but my experience jives w/ what the others have said, which is no surprise since they know what they're doing

 

[zibbler]

Originally posted by Squid
Zibbler, can you bunnyhop? That seems to be an integral part of jumping.

Yes and no. I can lift the front and rear up at the same time, like a spring shooting straight up, but I have not been able to do it the way many have said to do it, which is by manualing the front up, then rotating the handlebars forward to lift the rear up. When I jump off a small jump, I crouch down just before hitting the jump, then as I'm just hitting the lip, I'll spring up to get lift. Does that make sense?

 

[Echo]

That still counts as a bunnyhop. But if you want to do big bunnyhops, you will need to learn the other method

 

[Squid]

Yep, I know exactly what you mean! That's mostly how my bunnyhops are as well. I can't manual, so I can't do really huge bunnyhops, but what happens for me is the front comes up a little (6" or so) and the back comes up just a hair later (about 0.0005" or so ) and thats about it.

Really, the back comes up about as much as the front, just both are not very high. I definately lift the front first though. Mostly cause I can't pull up on the back, just the bars, and then push them forward so the back comes up.

I'll have to have someone (Echo?) watch me and see if I'm doing the manual ones of the bounce ones.

Can you do your bunnyhops on flat ground, or just to get a little spring off a ramp?

 

[zibbler]

Originally posted by Squid
Can you do your bunnyhops on flat ground, or just to get a little spring off a ramp?

Yeah, I can bounce up and down like a pogo stick on flat ground. I've practiced bunnyhopping over branches and small logs. The most height I've gotten was about 8".

I've tried many times to do the manual/rotate method, but just can't seem to do it. I don't have a lot of upper body strength, which is why I started working out again. I think a longer travel fork would help with that cuz I wouldn't have to pull back as hard/far on the bars.

 

[Squid]

Well, I think the manual/rotate method has a LOT more steps and motions too coordinate than the bounce, so don't feel bad! I'm not sure I can really do it either. I can't manual, I can tug on the bars, and the front comes up a little, but thats it. I've read somewhere that the height of the manual determines how high you can hop, which makes sense. My "manuals" are about 5 or 6" high, and thats about how high I can hop.

Maybe practice the manualing first? THats what I need to do, I think....

 

[pnj]

Originally posted by Squid

Maybe practice the manualing first? THats what I need to do, I think....

I could bunnyhop well before I could manual.

actually, I could bunnyhop before they even started to call it a manual. it used to be called a coaster wheelie.....(and I've got the magazines to prove it, so don't argue with me )

seriously, you do need to get your front end up as high as you want to get your backend but you don't really need to know how to manual.

your really only coasting on your back wheel for about the length of your wheelbase. so it's not like you have to balance on your back tire as you would for a long manual.

practice,practice,practice.

as for getting longer forks so you don't have to pull up as far, it' won't really help I don't think.

just get out there and ride.
one thing I do when trying something new or trying to perfect something I can already do is what I call the "five times thingy" (that's a technical term)
I will give five serious attempts at a trick each time paying close attention to what I'm doing and trying to improve on it.

I usually end up doing about a billion of those in a day but it kind of gives me a little goal. I know when I can stop if I'm doing crappy or if it's a really scary trick.

now get off your damm computer and go ride!

 

[Lucee]

Originally posted by zibbler
Yes and no. I can lift the front and rear up at the same time, like a spring shooting straight up, but I have not been able to do it the way many have said to do it, which is by manualing the front up, then rotating the handlebars forward to lift the rear up. When I jump off a small jump, I crouch down just before hitting the jump, then as I'm just hitting the lip, I'll spring up to get lift. Does that make sense?

So, do you do this on clipless pedals?? I could always "bunnyhop" on clipless, but a friend advised I practice w/flats. I did, and 6months later I had a real bunnyhop down. And, once I got the motion of bunnyhopping on flats, jumping was waaay easier than me. Learning how to manipulate the bike while on platforms/flats goes a long way.

 

[zibbler]

Originally posted by Lucee
So, do you do this on clipless pedals??

Nope. I tried clipless and really didn't like it. I much prefer flats. In fact, I think I'd be afraid to try jumping while clipped in.

I've known how to do a basic bunnyhop since I was a teen. I used to hang out with a bunch of BMXers, so I learned a few things back then, looonnng before I took up mountain biking.

 

[Squid]

Originally posted by pnj
your really only coasting on your back wheel for about the length of your wheelbase. so it's not like you have to balance on your back tire as you would for a long manual.

That's what I mean. Even just rolling along, trying to pick the front end up for a half second, usually it only comes up a few inches. Or I flip over. I'm not even thinking about riding it along, just trying to consistently pick up the front end to any given height.

 

[Mudpuppy]

Here's my advice on learning to bunnyhop big.

The thing that really helped me and mad things come together this year was riding on benches. Like park benches.

Try riding up to benches from the end and lifting the front end up then pulling the back end up with your feet. My epiphany was when I realized that anything that you can get on like this without slamming your rear wheel, you can bunnyhop onto. It's the exact same motion. The bunnyhop is just fast where the lifting one wheel at a time is slow.

My advice for improving your hops would be to do this because it allows you to get the motion down slowly so when you want to really hop your muscles know how to do it.

It worked for me. Last year I could only hop a max of 10" with the pogo method, and now I can hop cleanly onto benches with the proper form..

 

[Lucee]

Originally posted by zibbler
Nope. I tried clipless and really didn't like it. I much prefer flats. In fact, I think I'd be afraid to try jumping while clipped in.

I've known how to do a basic bunnyhop since I was a teen. I used to hang out with a bunch of BMXers, so I learned a few things back then, looonnng before I took up mountain biking.

Okay, then I'm lost, can you or can you not do a bunnyhop? Didn't you say earlier that you couldn't? And, when you said you "spring up", I automatically thought you were in clipless, because that's the style associated with bunnyhopping clipped in.


I can bunnyhop and jump in both flats and clipless. I think it's wise to be able to adapt to either styles, but what the hell do I know???

 

[dh girlie]

Originally posted by Lucee
Okay, then I'm lost, can you or can you not do a bunnyhop? Didn't you say earlier that you couldn't? And, when you said you "spring up", I automatically thought you were in clipless, because that's the style associated with bunnyhopping clipped in.


I can bunnyhop and jump in both flats and clipless. I think it's wise to be able to adapt to either styles, but what the hell do I know???

Nuthin...you cheat on your homework!

 

[Lucee]

Originally posted by dh girlie
Nuthin...you cheat on your homework!

Well, I sure couldn't cheat to race pro dh.

 

[dh girlie]

Originally posted by Lucee
Okay, then I'm lost, can you or can you not do a bunnyhop? Didn't you say earlier that you couldn't? And, when you said you "spring up", I automatically thought you were in clipless, because that's the style associated with bunnyhopping clipped in.


I can bunnyhop and jump in both flats and clipless. I think it's wise to be able to adapt to either styles, but what the hell do I know???

I can't bunnyhop with flats...I'm lame anyway, but I can bunnyhop a little when I'm clipped in...I think if you have it down on flats, clipped in shouldn't be an issue...

 

[Tweek]

Clips are definitely a crutch. And one of my goals this year is to get off my crutches and be able to ride what/how I normally do with flats. (Not that I'll be giving up my clips for good). It's the extra "bail factor" I like.

 

[Squid]

I think Zibs can bunnyhop w/ flats, but only the "pogo" method, not the "j-hop" method. I used to do that as well, you just kind compress your weight down, and pop up, and the tires act as springs to life the bike up a few inches. The tires will only kick the bike up so high, and its not very high at all. This is rather than the distinct front end up, shove bars up and forward, draw up rear of bike sort of thing that allows you to clear big stuff.

 

[zibbler]

Originally posted by Lucee
Okay, then I'm lost, can you or can you not do a bunnyhop? Didn't you say earlier that you couldn't? And, when you said you "spring up", I automatically thought you were in clipless, because that's the style associated with bunnyhopping clipped in.

I can bunnyhop pogo style (lifting front and rear at the same time), but can;t do the method wher you loft the front wheel first, then rotate the handlebars forward to lift the rear. I just use my feet to kinda "scoop" the pedals. Sorta like forcefully trying to wipe gum off your shoes.

 

[Lucee]

Originally posted by zibbler
I can bunnyhop pogo style (lifting front and rear at the same time), but can;t do the method wher you loft the front wheel first, then rotate the handlebars forward to lift the rear. I just use my feet to kinda "scoop" the pedals. Sorta like forcefully trying to wipe gum off your shoes.

Sounds like you're halfway there, then. It's a lot about timing. I'm sure if you just keep working on it, it will come to ya!

Because j-hopping definitely comes in handy on the trail as well!

 

[pnj]

Originally posted by Lucee
Because j-hopping definitely comes in handy on the trail as well!

I'm not really one to get all uptight about what things are called but this one really gets me.

j-hop? I know it's when you pull your front end up first, then your back end (unless I'm mistaken) but how in the HELL did it get this name?

It's been a bunnyhop for a LONG time.

does anyone have any history on how this horrible name came to be? I want documented proof. first time it was printed or something.

until someone can prove to me that the j-hop was called a j-hop before the bunnyhop I will never respect that word.





seriously, give me a history lesson.

 

[bru]

As far as I know, a j-hop is named after the motion your handlebars go through when bunnyhopping. First back, then up, then forward to suck the back end up. Sort of sideways "J"

 

[pnj]

Originally posted by bru
As far as I know, a j-hop is named after the motion your handlebars go through when bunnyhopping. First back, then up, then forward to suck the back end up. Sort of sideways "J"

ok, that makes some sense. but can you tell me when it was first used?

I've known the word bunnyhop for over 20 years. who came up w/ calling it a j-hop? my guess is, it was a trials rider....

 

[MojoJojo]

If you got any friends that are DJ's... go ride with them and watch carefully what they do. And then, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Start on jumps that have tabletops, the crashes aren't as bad as crashing on a gapped jump. The hardest thing about BMX'n is explaining how something works. Just go have fun, it will all come together