[brock]

The liabilty arguement is weak.

This could help you guys at SST as well.


RCW 4.24.210
Liability of owners or others in possession of land and water areas for injuries to recreation users -- Limitation.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (3) or (4) of this section, any public or private landowners or others in lawful possession and control of any lands whether designated resource, rural, or urban, or water areas or channels and lands adjacent to such areas or channels, who allow members of the public to use them for the purposes of outdoor recreation, which term includes, but is not limited to, the cutting, gathering, and removing of firewood by private persons for their personal use without purchasing the firewood from the landowner, hunting, fishing, camping, picnicking, swimming, hiking, bicycling, skateboarding or other nonmotorized wheel-based activities, hanggliding, paragliding, rock climbing, the riding of horses or other animals, clam digging, pleasure driving of off-road vehicles, snowmobiles, and other vehicles, boating, nature study, winter or water sports, viewing or enjoying historical, archaeological, scenic, or scientific sites, without charging a fee of any kind therefor, shall not be liable for unintentional injuries to such users.

(2) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (3) or (4) of this section, any public or private landowner or others in lawful possession and control of any lands whether rural or urban, or water areas or channels and lands adjacent to such areas or channels, who offer or allow such land to be used for purposes of a fish or wildlife cooperative project, or allow access to such land for cleanup of litter or other solid waste, shall not be liable for unintentional injuries to any volunteer group or to any other users.

(3) Any public or private landowner, or others in lawful possession and control of the land, may charge an administrative fee of up to twenty-five dollars for the cutting, gathering, and removing of firewood from the land.

(4) Nothing in this section shall prevent the liability of a landowner or others in lawful possession and control for injuries sustained to users by reason of a known dangerous artificial latent condition for which warning signs have not been conspicuously posted. A fixed anchor used in rock climbing and put in place by someone other than a landowner is not a known dangerous artificial latent condition and a landowner under subsection (1) of this section shall not be liable for unintentional injuries resulting from the condition or use of such an anchor. Nothing in RCW 4.24.200 and 4.24.210 limits or expands in any way the doctrine of attractive nuisance. Usage by members of the public, volunteer groups, or other users is permissive and does not support any claim of adverse possession.

(5) For purposes of this section, a license or permit issued for statewide use under authority of chapter 79A.05 RCW or Title 77 RCW is not a fee.
[2003 c 39 § 2; 2003 c 16 § 2; 1997 c 26 § 1; 1992 c 52 § 1. Prior: 1991 c 69 § 1; 1991 c 50 § 1; 1980 c 111 § 1; 1979 c 53 § 1; 1972 ex.s. c 153 § 17; 1969 ex.s. c 24 § 2; 1967 c 216 § 2.]
NOTES:
Reviser's note: This section was amended by 2003 c 16 § 2 and by 2003 c 39 § 2, each without reference to the other. Both amendments are incorporated in the publication of this section under RCW 1.12.025(2). For rule of construction, see RCW 1.12.025(1).

Finding -- 2003 c 16: "The legislature finds that some property owners in Washington are concerned about the possibility of liability arising when individuals are permitted to engage in potentially dangerous outdoor recreational activities, such as rock climbing. Although RCW 4.24.210 provides property owners with immunity from legal claims for any unintentional injuries suffered by certain individuals recreating on their land, the legislature finds that it is important to the promotion of rock climbing opportunities to specifically include rock climbing as one of the recreational activities that are included in RCW 4.24.210. By including rock climbing in RCW 4.24.210, the legislature intends merely to provide assurance to the owners of property suitable for this type of recreation, and does not intend to limit the application of RCW 4.24.210 to other types of recreation. By providing that a landowner shall not be liable for any unintentional injuries resulting from the condition or use of a fixed anchor used in rock climbing, the legislature recognizes that such fixed anchors are recreational equipment used by climbers for which a landowner has no duty of care." [2003 c 16 § 1.].

Purpose -- 1972 ex.s. c 153: See RCW 79A.35.070.
Off-road and nonhighway vehicles: Chapter 46.09 RCW.
Snowmobiles: Chapter 46.10 RCW.


tHIS PART IS IMPORTANT

Nothing in this section shall prevent the liability of a landowner or others in lawful possession and control for injuries sustained to users by reason of a known dangerous artificial latent condition for which warning signs have not been conspicuously posted

I read that as......Post a sign before and man made obstacle and liabilty issue goes away.

 

[trailhacker]

legal mumbo, jumbo

Check out the big brain on Brock....

 

[trailhacker]

One thing to keep in mind though is that R&R (WIM) was going to hold an event in the Roslyn/Cle Elum area but the land owner pulled there permit because they were being sued by a guy that got hurt riding his motorcycle in an area that stricly prohibits motorcycles? Ultimately the landowner won, but not until much time, effort and $$ was spent I'm sure.
Here in the states, you can find a lawyer to sue for anything.....

 

[Corporatefailure]

Suing is some thing that people are going to have to learn not to do.
and yet the do it any ways and even if they do win they still wine about it.
no one in the pnw is really making any money of dh/fr.
so it’s not in law makers and local official’s best interest to defend it.
un like hikeing and xc ride and road riding, there are no real clubs of organizations for dh/fr.
Were not going to go any were with this till we organize.

 

[fattyfat1]

terrible news! drove all the way from kelso to ride there a couple of times. great trails! steep, technical,all my favorite things about riding!

 

[ioscope]

My bike has shocks!

 

[cove rider]

o ya mine has pegs

 

[oly]

Suing is some thing that people are going to have to learn not to do.
and yet the do it any ways and even if they do win they still wine about it.

Im sure if one day you get toasted doing this stuff you'll be eating those words. The fact is the US is a sue (or Sew) happy place. Even if your not intendign to sue( or sew) anyone, your insurance company may force you to. (look at what happened down in cali). And if you dont have insurance, then you may have no other choice to help cover those bills that are so high because of the insurance system.

That is one thing really too that keeps me from building anything on my land... one bad crash and i could be up s@#t creek with out a paddle, and a motor with the propeller on backwards... even if the person who crashed was my bestestest friend and wouldnt ever do that, would it be worth risking my home and family for something like that? No thanks.

 

[Corporatefailure]

then were all really just f**ked arnt we... pritty soon theres gonna be no were to ride.

 

[oly]

well, maybe its time for........

http://king_stomper.tripod.com/freestylewalking/

 

[Corporatefailure]

That’s just ridiculous, I am gonna keep building were I am building and I am not gonna let almost any thing stop me. Cept the feds.

 

[seand]

frank - make up some "danger will rogers" signs for derelicte. if how I read that is the same way brock did, then we should be okay with cautionary signage.

if all we need are caution signs warning people of the obvious...so be it. small price to pay to remove liability from the land owner(s).

i think its time to write a letter to olympia and request an ammendment to add mountain biking the same way rock climbing was added....instead of anchors...lets put " hux gnar super extreme gappage northshore bridges" surely that will fly

 

[Corporatefailure]

" hux gnar super extreme gappage northshore bridges"

i thought the worlds smallest gap was "hux gnar" what was it like 25" across.

 

[seand]

heh...yeah it was about 25" when all said and done...super huge gap action

shame we had to kill that for the stupid monster that is there now....


this weekend needs to get here faster....

 

[Freak]

At least we didn't get what these guys got!!

http://www.homestead.com/hickhucksters/bigtroublearticle.html

 

[seand]

that was in bikemag this time around. i really enjoyed how the mag enforced that either one should build right, or dont build...

they went into an eco-sensitive area to build...stupid. that would be like someone carving a line down st helens and wondering why they are being arrested....

it made some awesome points about not cutting trees, nailing into them..using things like pallets, haybails, etc...

overall it was a great article..and in the end..they got a small monitary fine coupled with mandatory imba building classes....i think the world is a safer place with their orig trail gone

 

[Tootrikky]

This link is kind of interesting concerning Tort Reform. http://www.newsbatch.com/tort.htm

I think that being sued is fairly big concern with most Americans, but the conspiracist in me says a Government run by Lawyers is not going to be in any hurry to reduce the majorities source of income

There was a Dateline show I watched about medical Lawsuits in the Southeast forcing Doctors and Hospitals to move out of low income counties becasue the local jurors there would almost always vote in favor of the poor folk suing the Doctors. It is was the best job in these counties, suing Doctors and everyone was in on it.

My point is something has to change.

I heard once that in Canada that if you sue and lose you are automatically liable for the defendants defense fees. I believe in the US if the above scenario happens the Defendant has to then sue the person who sued them to recover the fes they spent to defend themselves?

 

[Corporatefailure]

"Even if we were to upkeep it like we planned, the mountain which I thought was charred and useless, turns out to be the most ecologically sensitve area in Wilson's Creek."


the area had been burned..

 

[Velocity Girl]

"Even if we were to upkeep it like we planned, the mountain which I thought was charred and useless, turns out to be the most ecologically sensitve area in Wilson's Creek."


the area had been burned..

Fires are a "rebirth" of sorts for the forest so just because it looks like a graveyard, it's actually in the early stages of regrowth.

 

[seand]

i agree things need to change. its not just in the souteast that docs are getting screwed.

some local clinics have closed due to how high malpractice insurance is...pretty soon, nobody will be able to afford to be healthy...lovely

 

[Corporatefailure]

yah, its called alt-er-na-tiv me-dei-cen


dident even spell it right,.

 

[seand]

you dont ever spell anything right.

 

[Corporatefailure]

not my falt i got some problems

 

[Tootrikky]

I guess I should of clarified....IMO Liability is the biggest obstacle our sport has by far!

Unless we find a way to insure land owners they won't lose their ass if some insurance company, or bloke decides to @$#@ them, we are driving to Canada or Breaking laws.

 

[PsychO!1]

I hear a lot of poeple saying we need to organize.....My understanding the BBTC or whatever has been lobbying for DH/FR access. They are an established, professional organization that knwos the political ropes and can make progress...legally!!!

If you want to make a difference in THIS state, I suggest you GET INVOLVED with this organization, it's your best chance.

Just my .02

 

[Snacks]

I hear a lot of poeple saying we need to organize.....My understanding the BBTC or whatever has been lobbying for DH/FR access. They are an established, professional organization that knwos the political ropes and can make progress...legally!!!

If you want to make a difference in THIS state, I suggest you GET INVOLVED with this organization, it's your best chance.

Just my .02

I second your .02 and make it .04

Get Involved. The mtb community looks better as a whole if we are organized and associated with a proven professional organization. Not all of us want to ride downhill or hit the dirtjumps, but ever illegal trail the DNR has to shut down or hiking organization complains about is a bad reflection on our group.

 

[bikegrrl]

I was up there yesterday (driving the shuttle truck :devil: ) when she met up with us. She was also going after the people shooting, Wheeling, riding dirt bikes, etc. after she was done with us.

Question is, was she going after the tweakers who built the damn meth lab in the middle of the trail? I was not stoked about getting acid-filled tubing wrapped around me on the way down the trail several weeks back.

One would think that they would be more concerned about meth labs than they would be about a few DHers.

 

[Freak]

So I informed BBTC about this, and they're ears are perked, just like Juice said. Give him a call. Here is what Preston of the BBTC has found out and reported so far. For those of you that don't know Preston, he's a great guy, and is a downhiller, and I believe he's on the board for BBTC. Juice can correct me if I'm wrong.

*********************************************

Last weekend some downhillers were riding 38 and a ranger (KB) warned
them that riding there was an unauthorized use and they would be warning
people away and eventually writing citations to discourage activity
there. When asked about a followup authority at the USFS, Tyler
Patterson was named.
I talked to Tyler today. He was quick to point out that he is not a
decision maker, he is a wildlife biologist. I'm not quite sure why
ranger KB would have mentioned his name but he did have good knowledge
on what was going on out there and did liason with KB.

The FS's primary concern has been a large increase in ORV and 4*4
activity on 38, specifically on that little wet area just below the exit
38 parking. In the last 6 months they have seen a real increase in
resource damage and use level. So in a sense, the bikers are getting
caught up in a general increase in enforcement of all activity, which is
regrettable, since it didn't sound like they are the main focus. OF
course they do have concerns about the sustainability and erosion caused
by the 38 trails. It sounds like a site visit showed some extreme water
runoff, but a later inventory found a plugged culvert and the 38 trails
may have gotten unfairly blamed for a temporary situation. But since
they are not built to FS or IMBA standards obviously, in a way that' s a
moot point other than bad timing.

The real decision maker sounds like Jim Franzel, who wasn't in today and
who I will attempt to talk with tomorrow. Ideally I/we/bbtc could
convince him to relax enforcement on the bikers.

But we all have to realize that those trails have always been
unauthorized and don't match any trail standards that have been
developed (and the catch is of course, that a true bad ass DH trail
could almost never meet those standards). The BBTC continues to work on
developing an area for stunt style riding and some great things are on
the horizon but can't be expected to replace shuttle chute trails on 38.


I'll report back on any progress I make with Mr. Franzel and if we can
find a way to make it work that would be great. Personally my dream is
to get Snoqualmie re-opened but that seems to have hit a dead end as
well.

And the other trails on another exit that is not 38 are definitely on
their radar as well. Everything unauthorized is always on borrowed time.


I'll report back more after I talk to Mr. Franzel and whoever else I
can.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Question is, was she going after the tweakers who built the damn meth lab in the middle of the trail? I was not stoked about getting acid-filled tubing wrapped around me on the way down the trail several weeks back.

One would think that they would be more concerned about meth labs than they would be about a few DHers.

Being the lesser of two evils doens't make us better.

We are both evil in the eyes of the people who are charged in maintaining the land. Making meth or choking salmon streams with erosion run off isn't much different with them.

I am not saying the Meth guys shouldn't be getting attention, but saying "why are you arresting me? (after robbing a bank) .....while there are child molesters out there" doesn't really mean much when we are just as wrong for being up there.

They don't want us up there (or are told to get rid of us) as we are breaking the law by doing it. It isn't the rangers fault....be it well or poorly, they are doing their job.

 

[bikegrrl]

They don't want us up there (or are told to get rid of us) as we are breaking the law by doing it. It isn't the rangers fault....be it well or poorly, they are doing their job.

I don't think I implied that it was the ranger's fault. I am questioning the policy that directs the actions of the rangers, not the rangers themselves.

I just hope that the USFS allows users to be part of the dialogue that determines future policy and actions.

 

[RhinofromWA]

I don't think I implied that it was the ranger's fault. I am questioning the policy that directs the actions of the rangers, not the rangers themselves.

I just hope that the USFS allows users to be part of the dialogue that determines future policy and actions.

We have no more of a right to be up there than the Meth heads do. *shrug*

THey do aloow people to be part of the dialogue. but often everyone won't make the time to be part of it. I have been requested to be present at committee meetings for the Tahuya forrest as a recreationalist (dirt bikes mostly) and yet I find it hard to commute to Bellfair on a Thursday afternoons to make their meeting..... I guess if I cared to be more involved with the area I would make the time to be there. Frankly taking the ferry or driving down thru Tacoma is not something I see doing so my voice falls silent with regard to Tahuya forrest.

Question is who speaks up for the DH/FR crowd now? Not enough. And it takes more than a handfull of people. Yet that is often more than actually devotte time to participate.

They access is there, the desire and commitment is not. It is mind numbing the muck you have to wade through while there and often you don't feel like they understand you. It sucks, and takes a special person to work within the confinds of a committee. Frankly I couldn't do it for long.

 

[bikegrrl]

Personally my dream is
to get Snoqualmie re-opened but that seems to have hit a dead end as
well.

Interestingly, I was just having a conversation today about precisely that topic, with a fellow MTBer who (usually) works at Snoqualmie every winter teaching snowboarding.

Snoqualmie has hired a new general manager since they ceased summer operations a few years ago. Given that he just awarded 2004/05 season pass holders with a free pass for next winter because of the abysmal conditions...and lack of riding...this year, I would venture to say that he is exceptionally concerned with keeping his customer base happy.

And because they didn't, for all intents and purposes, have a winter season, it would be beneficial for them to recoup their losses by reconsidering summer operations. I don't know if it's early enough to pull off for this summer. But it's worth calling or mailing the general manager to let him know your thoughts.

His name is Daniel Webster. Act now and we just might get our local MTB park back. If not this summer, maybe in 2006.

 

[seand]

i was talking about snoqualmie with a few folks the other day. yesterday it came up again in regards to 38's possible demise...someone made a comment which was disturbingly obvious and possible.

it went something like this...

say snoqualmie notices that a local favourite dh spot is getting the axe and they notice just how upset everyone is about it. say snoqualmie also takes the effort to bring to dnr/forest service's attention all the illegal trails out there...also say that once the trails are closed down, snoqualmie suddenly opens up to save the day. everyone would be stoked that there is a lift accessible riding park, and that something filled the void that was just created....

im not saying this is ever going to happen...but knowing that money is what drives progress, its not at all impossible...even if just in part.

i would love to know that a seasons pass i buy for snoqualmie in the winter can be used in the summer for the same year for an added 15 bucks or something. big white in montana does that and the locals LOVE it.

 

[Corporatefailure]

its not gonna happen, quit dreamin.

 

[trailhacker]

...it would be beneficial for them to recoup their losses by reconsidering summer operations...

The problem is that they never really made any money running summer operations. You had the 20 or so die hards that were there every weekend, but that doesn't pay the bills?
The big problem is a lack of a trail network and advertising. I'm not sure which should come first? A good network with trails for all abilities would do wonders to get ma and pa and the kids to come up a few times a summer.

 

[Borneo]

Sorry Karen, it's "Dan Brewster". And, yeah, he's your point man for trying to get it open again.

There's a lot going against it and one bad snow season won't make them change their mind.
Despite having a sister area in Northstar pushing it and apparently doing well enough. (I really don't know. But, would assume so.)
There's no doubt that the area would do well. It's no Whistler. But, would be good for a close fix.
I believe a couple years ago there was a loose consortium of DHrs and folks in the BBTC that made some attempts and got shot down.
Bottom line is that they tried it and no one came up there. Sure, no money or advertising was pumped into it.But, the impression I've heard is,"We tried and you guys did not come up..."
So, we may have lost that chance for good.

So, in the mean time. Getting off the bike and in the trail user meetings is the best bet. But, I don't see that happening either. They're boring and frustrating and difficult to keep your cool in. What's even more sad is that it takes situations like this to get people fired up.
I often daydream about Tiger getting closed just to see how fired up people would get.

 

[fattyfat1]

anyone been to whistler? snoqualmie doesnt have a chance. theres no vertical drop, no nightlife, no lodging, no tyler klassen standing next to you in the lift line. no sitting two tables over from cedric and anne -caroline in the longhorn drinking beer. no super sick trails. that place is a joke. want to know what it will be like? come to my neck of the woods and ride ski-bowl at mt hood. WHAT A GIANT PIECE OF CRAP THAT PLACE IS! one trail, fun for about an hour. 150 yr. old lifts that take 45 minutes to get to the top for a five minute ride down a rocky, 2" deep dustbowl that takes 5 minutes to clear. nothing but fire road crap! forget snoqualmie, think crystal! think timberline or meadows, think bachelor or baker, forget qualmie!

 

[Langer]

Bottom line is that they tried it and no one came up there. Sure, no money or advertising was pumped into it.But, the impression I've heard is,"We tried and you guys did not come up..."
So, we may have lost that chance for good.

That was a different era when they were open to mtbers. There were more XC riders than "double black diamond jibbsters" . Times have changed and freeriding is the most dominant form of mountain biking now.

 

[trailhacker]

anyone been to whistler? snoqualmie doesnt have a chance. theres no vertical drop, no nightlife, no lodging, no tyler klassen standing next to you in the lift line. no sitting two tables over from cedric and anne -caroline in the longhorn drinking beer. no super sick trails. that place is a joke. want to know what it will be like? come to my neck of the woods and ride ski-bowl at mt hood. WHAT A GIANT PIECE OF CRAP THAT PLACE IS! one trail, fun for about an hour. 150 yr. old lifts that take 45 minutes to get to the top for a five minute ride down a rocky, 2" deep dustbowl that takes 5 minutes to clear. nothing but fire road crap! forget snoqualmie, think crystal! think timberline or meadows, think bachelor or baker, forget qualmie!

Been to whistler many times, season pass holder the past three years.
Also rode a bunch at Snocrummie.
While I give you most of your arguments against it, I don't buy the no vert argument. Actually, I'd say too much vert was one of there downfalls. Too hard to build beginner and recreational trails when you have such steep pitch?
Maybe I am biased because:
1. I built most of the DH trails up there with the help of many others
2. while I have had season passes to Whistler the past few years, I am not real big into jumping which makes 50% of the lower mountain kind of boring to me.
I much prefer the natural terrain so when they opened up Garbonzo with promise of natural, techy trails I was happy, happy, happy.
If Snoq. opened again and let us work in a few more lines, hell if they only let us ride the existing trails, I would go to Whistler maybe 2-3 times a year and spend the rest of the summer at Snoq.
Also, Snoq would never try to "compete" with a resort like Whistler. It would be the same situation it is in the winter - someplace close to home where you could go ride for a day and be home in time for dinner or at least sleep in your own bed that night.
If star gazing is what you require, then no, Snoq would not be the place for you.
On a side note, one other big problem Snoq had was on any given day was only about half the people there actually purchased lift tickets??? Way too much "bro-deal" going on. The people that never bought lift tickets because they thought they shouldn't be required for what ever reason needed to realize that with no $ there would be no lifts.
[/rant]

 

[Corporatefailure]

If Snoqualmie opened, that would sweet. I think they could make good revenue? I am kind of talking outa my ass, I really don’t know why they stopped offering lift access.