Just some real facts.

the law · Apr 9, 2003

17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ? A: 0

I could be wrong, but if this is referring to the first gulf war (desert storm), then this is not a fact.

Booker · Apr 9, 2003

Here are some FACTS for you.

Q. How many weeks did it take for U.S. forces to destroy Saddams regiem? A. 3

Q. Are the Iraqi civilians dancing and celibrating in the streets after being freed from their murderous leader? A. Yes

Serial Midget · Apr 9, 2003

Oops... looks like the wind blows in a different direction now... :rolleyes:

You are only 3 weeks too late.

I Are Baboon · Apr 9, 2003

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
Here's some information worth knowing that you'll never get on CNN.

On the contrary, if any news station would show that, CNN would. BTW, CNN blows moose ass.

Spud · Apr 9, 2003

Holy leading and twisting questions Batman.

N8 v2.0 · Apr 9, 2003

...facts???

BBWWAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

I Are Baboon · Apr 9, 2003

I am guessing Alexis is trying to tell us she/he is anti-war. But I should not make that assumption because these are, after all, facts and not opinions. No opinions in this post. :rolleyes:

LordOpie · Apr 9, 2003

Facts!? LOL!

I didn't read the whole thing cuz you started to lose me

10. Q: Did Iraq these chemical and biological weapons on their own? A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the U.S. government, along Britain and private corporations.

There's evidence to suggest they received a lot of weapons and materials from Russia, France and others.

12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabjain 1988? A: 5,000

Another flaw in your post... this "FACT" remains unknown. There's evidence suggesting Iran was the one to use the gas.

15. Q: Are there any proven links between September 11th terrorist attack? A: No

Hmm, huh? Do you mean between 9/11 and Iraq?

23. Q: Does Iraq more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago? A: No

Umm, how is this a "fact"?

Did you write this stuff yourself? Cuz it's fairly convoluted. I stopped reading. The problem you're going to face in debates is when you start using absolutes like "fact" then make errors or toss in subjective ideas.

Thanks for playing

Fun distraction.

LordOpie · Apr 9, 2003

Originally posted by I Are Baboon
CNN blows moose ass.

Fvck! I'm not sure what or how you'd do that, but now I'm gonna need medication.

DRB · Apr 9, 2003

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
i thought it would be interesting to share this with whoever wants to read it. notice there are no unobjective observations, or opinions or anything. just plain facts. (well, ok, the questions are biassed but anyway, it doesnt change the facts)

FACTS? Must be a different definition of the word fact in South America.

There are so many falsehoods in your facts it is not worth shooting them all down.

But the first Gulf War not having any combat deaths...... 147 families would beg to differ with your "fact".

-BB- · Apr 9, 2003

Q: How much of this is propaganda?
A: Most of it.

Q: How many other questions are not being asked?
A: A lot.

Come on... we burried 6000 people alive with a plow?
$40 billion would solve world hunger? Maybe for a few days.

The Toninator · Apr 9, 2003

Originally posted by -BB-

$40 billion would solve world hunger? Maybe for a few days.

Wow is that all? they should just ask bill gates for it. seems like pocket change.

The Toninator · Apr 9, 2003

this one's great:
52. Q: Which country do you think poses the greatest threat to global peace:Iraq or the U.S.? A: ?
yeah!! **** the world. wuahahahahahahaah!!!!!

The Toninator · Apr 9, 2003

47. Q: Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons? A: the US

ambiguous. Were the only ones to use them against an enemy BUT plenty of countries have tested them.

Stellite · Apr 9, 2003

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
Here's some information worth knowing that you'll never get on CNN. Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq? Take the War on Iraq IQ Test:

53. Q: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"? A: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr

After looking at your list I have removed all the irrelevant, erroneous questions as well as questions with lies and have come up with the above list. That's a good one.

Here are some of the more relevant questions you posed on that so called "fact" sheet created by the anti-bush-US individuals:

10. Q: Did Iraq these chemical and biological weapons on their own? A: No, THEY COULD AFFORD TO BUY THEM FROM FRANCE and GERMANY

11. Q: Did the U.S. government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran? A: BECAUSE THEY WERE BOTH BADDDD GUYS

12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabjain 1988? A: A lot more than the 5,000 claimed, that's for sure. Saddam gassed Halabja and other towns and also murdered Kurds in the thousands in North Iraq.

13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time? A:0 True, Thanks to the UN, no one acted

15. Q: Are there any proven links between September 11th terrorist attack? A: No. But who better to prolifirate than Saddam

16. Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War? A: 35,000 and the followup question is how many did Saddam cause the death of? 70-90%

17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ? A: 0 -GOOD

18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive byU.S.anks with ploughs mounted on the front? A: 6,000, YOU BELIEVE THIS AND I HAVE SOME SWAMP LAND FOR SALE

22. Q: Is there any proof chattier to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense? A: No HUH?

23. Q: Does Iraq more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago? A: No-NOT AS OF TODAY and HIS PEOPLE ARE PARTYING IN THE STREETS SO THAT TELLS YOU GOOD OF A GUY HE WAS

24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq 2002/3? A: 10,000 SHOW THE PROOF OF THIS PLEASE

25. Q: What percentage of these will be children? A:Over 50% SEE QUESTION 24

26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq? A: 11 years YES AND IRAQ HAS SHOT AT COALITION AIRCRAFT FLYING OVER THE NO FLY ZONE FOR THAT MANY YEARS

32. Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions? A: 1.5 million--YES, YOU CAN THANK SADDAM FOR THAT

33. Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997? A: 750,000 SEE #32

38. Q: Who said that by December 1998, Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to a level unprecedented in modern history. A: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.--I GUES THOSE MISSILES WE FOUND WERE TOYS AS WERE THE IRAQI TANK COLUMS THAT WE REMOVED AND THE CHEMICAL SUITS AND SUPPLIES

39. Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled? A: 90% OH REALLY? IRAQ IS A BIG DESERT AND IT IS EASY TO HIDE THINGS SO WE'LL SEE ABOUT THAT

40. Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in? A:Yes..OF COURSE, HE WAS A MASTER OF PROCRASTINATION

UNSCR 687 - 3 April 1991
Resolution 687 called for the destruction, removal or rendering harmless of:
All chemical and biological weapons, and all stocks of agents and components
All research, development, support and manufacturing facilities for ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150km and related repair and production facilities.
Resolution 687 created a special commission - Unscom - to inspect Iraq's chemical, biological and nuclear facilities.
Iraq was required to hand over all biological and chemical weapons to Unscom for destruction, and ordered to respect the 1968 Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.
The resolution outlined these demands as part of a wider scheme to create a zone in the Middle East free from weapons of mass destruction, with the global objective of a worldwide ban on chemical weapons.

UNSCR 688 - 5 April 1991
Condemns repression of civilians in Iraq:

The Security Council condemned repressive measures exercised by the Iraqi regime against civilians, and demanded access for humanitarian groups. At the end of the war, uprisings against the regime by Kurds in northern Iraq and Shia Muslims in the south were brutally suppressed by the Iraqi military.

UNSCR 707 - 15 August 1991
Demands compliance with weapons inspectors:
This resolution emphasised the need for Iraq to allow Unscom and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) immediate and unconditional access to any areas they wish to inspect.
Iraq was also ordered to not to move or attempt to hide anything relating to its nuclear, chemical or biological programmes.

UNSCR 949 - 15 October 1994
Orders Iraq to refrain from threatening its neighbours and
Iraq was again ordered to comply fully with Unscom inspectors.

Then came 1441.

The UN itself was in agreement that Saddam had not complied with anything. France, Germany and Russia wanted to give Saddam more time as a procrastination move on their part because they knew that if Saddam was removed they would loose all their oil deals with him. TOUGH SHI...

Ridemonkey · Apr 9, 2003

Originally posted by ALEXIS_DH
i thought it would be interesting to share this with whoever wants to read it. notice there are no unobjective observations, or opinions or anything. just plain facts. (well, ok, the questions are biassed but anyway, it doesnt change the facts)

Many of your "facts" need to be checked :angry:

The US spends about 330 billion on defense. Last time I checked thats not 50% of 900 billion. And we owe the whole world a living (What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world?) Thats rich.

Biased lists of "facts" could be put together to put any cause in favorable light.

the law · Apr 9, 2003

Originally posted by Stellite

Here are some of the more relevant questions you posed on that so called "fact" sheet created by the anti-bush-US individuals:

10. Q: Did Iraq these chemical and biological weapons on their own? A: No, THEY COULD AFFORD TO BUY THEM FROM FRANCE and GERMANY
B]

No doubt the original list is about as biased as it can get (see my earlier post), but the US (in addition to germany france, russia, ...) is also responsible for arming iraq. The above statement is as biased and uninformed as the statements in the original list. The U.S. is hardly a saint. But then all countries are driven to a a large extent by pragmatism. So, when you attack the original list's preposterous statements you should probably also pay some more attention to accuracy in your own representations.

BurlyShirley · Apr 9, 2003

That was quite possibly the worst list of "facts" ive ever seen.

Did you just make those up or something?

LordOpie · Apr 9, 2003

ALEXIS, consider this thread-ripping by the masses your initiation to the wonderful world of on-line arguing!

Err, umm, debating. We've all said stupid and/or ignorant things. I post something stupid everyday. Just follow my rule. If you can't say something smart, atleast try to make it entertaining. Thank you for the entertainment.

keep posting,
Opie

Ranger · Apr 10, 2003

Servus!

Ahem.

TROLL ALERT!!!

Move along, citizens - nothing to see here...

SandMan · Apr 10, 2003

Originally posted by LordOpie
There's evidence to suggest they received a lot of weapons and materials from Russia, France and others.
[/B]

The US was the biggest supplier of WMD to Iraq, this is a fact. During the Iran-Iraq war, the US backed Iraq and Russia backed Iran. Also don't forget the US turned a blind eye when Iraq gased the Kurds. These are the hard facts.

Russia has been selling arms to Iraq (mainly aircraft, tanks, guns, basically conventional weapons), starting years after the Iran-Iraq war. But the WMD as we call them have been supplied by the US. Just look it up.

N8 v2.0 · Apr 10, 2003

Sandman you forgot to mention China and N Korea in your list of Iraqi arms suppliers as well as Syeria and Jordan.

DRB · Apr 10, 2003

Originally posted by SandMan
The US was the biggest supplier of WMD to Iraq, this is a fact. During the Iran-Iraq war, the US backed Iraq and Russia backed Iran. Also don't forget the US turned a blind eye when Iraq gased the Kurds. These are the hard facts.

Russia has been selling arms to Iraq (mainly aircraft, tanks, guns, basically conventional weapons), starting years after the Iran-Iraq war. But the WMD as we call them have been supplied by the US. Just look it up.

The design and origin of Iraqis biological weapons came directly from Soviet and former Soviet weapons labratories. The chemcial weapons are all of Soviet design as are the delivery systems. The weaponized anthrax found in Iraq in 1995 was of a strain that UN inspectors identified as being originally produced in a Soviet weapons lab in Sverdlovsk in the 1970s. Both the US offensive chemical and biological weapons programs were scrapped by 1980 (actually before that date). That is certainly not the case of the USSR and then Russia which had an active chemical and biological weapons program into the early 90's. What has been shown was that a number of the raw materials in regards to the chemical programs came from US and French companies, while the actual development and construction came at the hands of Iraqi scientists working with Soviet designs and scientists.

In 1997 the UN inspectors found documentation that indicates that as late as 1995 the Russian government entered into agreement with Iraq to sell them equipment that could be used to produce biological weapons. The Russian government never responded to the inquiry as to whether the equipment was delivered or not.

The Iraqi nuclear program was based on that of the French, who built the nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear technology. The Israelis, however, made sure that the nuclear program never progressed that far by bombing in the early 80's.

Stellite · Apr 10, 2003

Originally posted by the law
No doubt the original list is about as biased as it can get (see my earlier post), but the US (in addition to germany france, russia, ...) is also responsible for arming iraq. The above statement is as biased and uninformed as the statements in the original list. The U.S. is hardly a saint. But then all countries are driven to a a large extent by pragmatism. So, when you attack the original list's preposterous statements you should probably also pay some more attention to accuracy in your own representations.

No doubt that the US helped arm Iraq, especially against Iran. However, It was not I that came out with that rediculous list obviously concocted by total bias. As for the US being a saint, no it's not, but it is far closer than any of the other countries that were against it in the UN, whose only interest was their economic deals that they would loose once Saddam was gone.

Fact is that the only countries that stood by their convictions were the coalition countries and not the snobbish French and Germans and underhanded Russians. Oh, and lets not forget the Belgians. It's funy how they all want to jump on the bandwagon now. The french agree now that Saddam had to go, how funny, can you say, TWO FACED.

-BB- · Apr 10, 2003

Originally posted by Stellite

24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq 2002/3? A: 10,000
How many would Sadam kill in the same period? maybe 20,000?

26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq? A: The US has been keeping the kurds safe from attach for 11 YEARS

39. Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled? A: 90%
And the remaining 10% could have killed how many people? SO if a guy is robbing a bank, it is ok as long as he give you 90% of his bullets?

40. Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in? A:Into the country? Yes. Into the facilities where the weapons are? NO

Stellite · Apr 10, 2003

Originally posted by -BB-

Originally posted by Stellite

24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq 2002/3? A: 10,000
How many would Sadam kill in the same period? maybe 20,000?

26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq? A: The US has been keeping the kurds safe from attach for 11 YEARS

39. Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled? A: 90%
And the remaining 10% could have killed how many people? SO if a guy is robbing a bank, it is ok as long as he give you 90% of his bullets?

40. Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in? A:Into the country? Yes. Into the facilities where the weapons are? NO

Click to expand...

Long Article, but tells of how many he really did kill. I think 20,000 is a little off the mark.

How Many People Has Saddam Killed?
By John F. Burns
The New York Times | January 27, 2003

in the unlit blackness of an October night, it took a flashlight to pick them out: rust-colored butchers' hooks, 20 or more, each four or five feet long, aligned in rows along the ceiling of a large hangar-like building. In the grimmest fortress in Iraq's gulag, on the desert floor 20 miles west of Baghdad, this appeared to be the grimmest corner of all, the place of mass hangings that have been a documented part of life under Saddam Hussein.

At one end of the building at Abu Ghraib prison, a whipping wind gusted through open doors. At the far end, the flashlight picked out a windowed space that appeared to function as a control room. Baggy trousers of the kind worn by many Iraqi men were scattered at the edges of the concrete floor. Some were soiled, as if worn in the last, humiliating moments of a condemned man's life.

The United States is facing a new turning point in its plans to go to war to topple Mr. Hussein, with additional American troops heading for the Persian Gulf, while France and Germany lead the international opposition. But the pressure President Bush has applied already has created chances to peer into the darkest recesses of Iraqi life.

In the past two months, United Nations weapons inspections, mandated by American insistence that Mr. Hussein's pursuit of banned weapons be halted, have ranged widely across the country. But before this became the international community's only goal, Mr. Bush was also attacking Mr. Hussein as a murdering tyrant. It was this accusation that led the Iraqi leader to virtually empty his prisons on Oct. 20, giving Western reporters, admitted that day to Abu Ghraib, a first-hand glimpse of the slaughterhouse the country has become.

In the end, if an American-led invasion ousts Mr. Hussein, and especially if an attack is launched without convincing proof that Iraq is still harboring forbidden arms, history may judge that the stronger case was the one that needed no inspectors to confirm: that Saddam Hussein, in his 23 years in power, plunged this country into a bloodbath of medieval proportions, and exported some of that terror to his neighbors.

Reporters who were swept along with tens of thousands of near-hysterical Iraqis through Abu Ghraib's high steel gates were there because Mr. Hussein, stung by Mr. Bush's condemnation, had declared an amnesty for tens of thousands of prisoners, including many who had served long sentences for political crimes. Afterward, it emerged that little of long-term significance had changed that day. Within a month, Iraqis began to speak of wide-scale re-arrests, and officials were whispering that Abu Ghraib, which had held at least 20,000 prisoners, was filling up again.

Like other dictators who wrote bloody chapters in 20th-century history, Mr. Hussein was primed for violence by early childhood. Born into the murderous clan culture of a village that lived off piracy on the Tigris River, he was harshly beaten by a brutal stepfather. In 1959, at age 22, he made his start in politics as one of the gunmen who botched an attempt to assassinate Iraq's first military ruler, Abdel Karim Kassem.

Since then, Mr. Hussein's has been a tale of terror that scholars have compared to that of Stalin, whom the Iraqi leader is said to revere, even if his own brutalities have played out on a small scale. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people, historians have concluded. Even on a proportional basis, his crimes far surpass Mr. Hussein's, but figures of a million dead Iraqis, in war and through terror, may not be far from the mark, in a country of 22 million people.

Where the comparison seems closest is in the regime's mercilessly sadistic character. Iraq has its gulag of prisons, dungeons and torture chambers some of them acknowledged, like Abu Ghraib, and as many more disguised as hotels, sports centers and other innocent-sounding places. It has its overlapping secret-police agencies, and its culture of betrayal, with family members denouncing each other, and offices and factories becoming hives of perfidy.

"Enemies of the state" are eliminated, and their spouses, adult children and even cousins are often tortured and killed along with them.

Mr. Hussein even uses Stalinist maxims, including what an Iraqi defector identified as one of the dictator's favorites: "If there is a person, then there is a problem. If there is no person, then there is no problem."

There are rituals to make the end as terrible as possible, not only for the victims but for those who survive. After seizing power in July 1979, Mr. Hussein handed weapons to surviving members of the ruling elite, then joined them in personally executing 22 comrades who had dared to oppose his ascent.

The terror is self-compounding, with the state's power reinforced by stories that relatives of the victims pale to tell of fingernail-extracting, eye-gouging, genital-shocking and bucket-drowning. Secret police rape prisoners' wives and daughters to force confessions and denunciations. There are assassinations, in Iraq and abroad, and, ultimately, the gallows, the firing squads and the pistol shots to the head.

DOING the arithmetic is an imprecise venture. The largest number of deaths attributable to Mr. Hussein's regime resulted from the war between Iraq and Iran between 1980 and 1988, which was launched by Mr. Hussein. Iraq says its own toll was 500,000, and Iran's reckoning ranges upward of 300,000. Then there are the casualties in the wake of Iraq's 1990 occupation of Kuwait. Iraq's official toll from American bombing in that war is 100,000 surely a gross exaggeration but nobody contests that thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilians were killed in the American campaign to oust Mr. Hussein's forces from Kuwait. In addition, 1,000 Kuwaitis died during the fighting and occupation in their country.

Casualties from Iraq's gulag are harder to estimate. Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqi émigrés and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000. As long as Mr. Hussein remains in power, figures like these will be uncheckable, but the huge toll is palpable nonetheless.

Just as in Stalin's Russia, the machinery of death is mostly invisible, except for the effects it works on those brushed by it in the loss of relatives and friends, and in the universal terror that others have of falling into the abyss. If anybody wants to know what terror looks like, its face is visible every day on every street of Iraq.

"Minders," the men who watch visiting reporters day and night, are supposedly drawn from among the regime's harder men. But even they break down, hands shaking, eyes brimming, voices desperate, when reporters ask ordinary Iraqis edgy questions about Mr. Hussein.

"You have killed me, and killed my family," one minder said after a photographer for The New York Times made unauthorized photographs of an exhibition of statues of the Iraqi dictator during a November visit to Baghdad's College of Fine Arts. In recent years, the inexorable nature of Iraq's horrors have been demonstrated by new campaigns bearing the special hallmark of Mr. Hussein. In 1999, a complaint about prison overcrowding led to an instruction from the Iraqi leader for a "prison cleansing" drive. This resulted, according to human rights groups, in hundreds, and possibly thousands, of executions.

Using a satanic arithmetic, prison governors worked out how many prisoners would have to be hanged to bring the numbers down to stipulated levels, even taking into account the time remaining in the inmates' sentences. As 20 and 30 prisoners at a time were executed at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, warders trailed through cities like Baghdad, "selling" exemption from execution to shocked families, according to people in Iraq who said they had spoken to relatives of those involved. Bribes of money, furniture, cars and even property titles brought only temporary stays.

As for KURDS:

Dr Renwar Reben (also known as Pishtewan) is a Kurd from Iraq who describes himself as "100 per cent against Saddam Hussein". Saddam, he says, killed 182,000 Kurds in 1987-88 using chemical and biological weapons. But Reben fears for the thousands of innocent civilians who could be killed in a US-led war. Two generations of Iraqis, he says, have been destroyed by wars and by the economic sanctions. "The people are exhausted," he said. "They will be victims in this war, too."

So we have at least 200,000 iraqis killed and 182,000 kurds killed just by Saddams hands. That doesn't include all the innocents whom he placed in areas he knew we would bomb. I think the war and bombing campaign was worth it. The lives saved was way over the ones lost

Just some real facts.

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